More on Sodium Ascorbate/Vitamin C.....: Hilary Butelr
Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:58 pm
Several emails in response to questions form Hilary Butler (Hilary is
someone who has been involved extensively with vaccine dangers and working
with cases of children & adults damaged by vaccines and testifying in
court.....she lives in New Zealand)
Discussion on Vitamin C is crucially on topic, with regard to everything. I
can understand why you might think it is sort of off topic, but then, if you
have sat, read and understood Professor C. Alan B. Clemetson's three volume
text, on Vitamin C, you might not be so ready to say that.
Vitamin C is intimately involved in just about every process that the body
uses. Unlike, say... selenium. Which is crucial, but has less overall
impact....
Vitamin C, far from being some optional extra in life and only on-topic with
vaccines, is the axis around which minerals and the whole body functions as
an interconnected web. There is, nutritionally, and biochemically, ONE
compound, without which we will all die. Sailors of old experienced and
knew this. We of this so-called modern day do not.
That one compound is vitamin C.
It is the cornerstone of the solid foundations to that thing we call
"health".
But in these days it takes upon a new significance.
We are now becoming, and breeding, a race of people whose gut flora is so
deranged, so dysfunctional, that endogenous endotoxemia from Gram negative
gut flora is a very very real danger. Further, they are addicted to foods
which make this worse, and their lives are so departed, often, from what is
right, that I truly wonder where the "wisdom" has gone.
Endotoxins, or curlins, are processed in the liver. Vaccines switch the
liver off in some children for up to 28 days. These children supposedly die
of SIDS, when it is plain from the sparse medical literature where people
accidentally find the answer, that they die from endogenous endotoxemia
which could not be controlled by the liver, and the body had insufficient
vitamin C to provide vital back-up.
More and more today, parents have less and less understanding of what
constitutes "real" health, and the role that vitamin C plays in it. And in
this world, in which there are so many more toxins, and bodily challenges, I
believe our bodily need for vitamin C has drastically increased, not
decreased. And until such time as people understand that, they will go
nowhere, period. The vitamin C intake and amount in a patients body, is the
first thing any doctor, under any circumstances, should be looking at. But
they don't understand where it fits in in the broader picture. And it isn't
just an issue that affects children, it is crucial to pregnancy, in fact, to
everything. And in something this crucial, biochemistry is everything. How
a drug is metabolised and used, is everything.
Sure, in a crisis, the body will utilise Calcium Ascorbate, no problem. So
if that is the only thing a person has on hand, in an acute situation, I
would say "go for it". But for long term situation, or situations where it
is really life and death I would only use CA if I had nothing else. If
there was a choice to hand, SA is the Vitamin C of choice.
The two things every decent doctor should understand is endotoxemia, and its
effects in the body, and circumstances in which it is triggered, and what
vitamin C does in those circumstances. And how it is involved in the sudden
deaths of babies.... AND... exactly the same situation happens in super-fit
(ha!) athletes, who suddenly drop dead during a marathon..., but the average
medical professional has NO IDEA what they are looking at. They mutter, oh,
heart failure, or this or that, or the other. But they are looking at the
end point, not the start point.
The start point is the gut. The middle point is that in this sort of
exercise (and the same applies to babies with fevers ) internal overheating
causes a massive increase in curlin production. But, the liver is not on
full-on go, because energy is required to keep the feet pounding. (or in the
baby's case, the liver is switched off by vaccines, or the load is simply
too much for it.) The curlin numbers increases quickly to unmanageable
levels, escapes through the liver, builds up super fast in the blood stream,
the cascade starts, and, and then bang. Why?
Because the athlete, having suddenly had to use massive reserves of vitamin
C, has suddenly run out of Vitamin C which is the only thing that can
reverse endotoxic shock, and that brick wall shows as an end-point of "heart
failure".
But how many doctors can actually detail to me, the physiological cascade
that I am talking about?
And its significance, not just in the circumstances I mention, but also to
pre-eclampsia and toxemia? Which, by the way, are caused by the identical
situation, but with slightly different variants....which tweak the metabolic
problems...
The ONLY thing that will save these babies, and these athletes, and
pre-eclamptic or toxemic mothers, is an understanding by themselves or
their parents, of diet, the need for good gut flora, the fact the proper
functioning of the liver is critical, and that the current attitudes on
vitamin C are neanderthal in both understanding and intent.
THAT if all those metabolic baselines fail, the last backstop is the amount
of Vitamin C in a person's body. And if you have to administer it, how the
body uses that best with the least possible biochemical disturbance. That is
the prescription of best choice.
Linus Pauling had a brilliant brain, but rather than see him as a person
deserving of two Nobel prizes which he was awarded, the medical profession
chose to see him as a fruitcake. This attitude prevails, even amongst the
"health" industry. Oh, we know better, now, that's "then". Really?
Randall, rather than continue to talk to lots of other people, and seek more
OPINIONS, I suggest that you find a copy of Clemetson's three volume medical
texts, talk to the doctors like Archie Kalokerinos, using Vitamin C ~ the
ones who have pioneered the work, like Cheraskin, those continuing like
Thomas Levy...and actually start forming your OWN opinion, based on your own
study, your own understanding and your own knowledge.
Here are the ISBN numbers:
0-8493-4841-2 (V.1)
0-8493-4842-0 (V.2)
0-8493-4843-9 (v. 3).
Publisher, 1989 by CRC Press, Inc...
Until you do that, then all you are offering your patients is what most
doctors offer.
The parrotted opinion of other people.
Most aware patients these days don't want that. They want real knowledge,
and to be treated by someone who says "I know, because I have read the
important information, talked to the people who matter, and am conversant
with the biochemistry and immunology behind the issues.
Sure, that means you will have to find Irwin Stones book as well, called
"the healing factor", just like I had to.
But IMO, for you as an OMD, you would be failing your patients if you did
not own, understand and implement the information in Clemetson's texts. You
may not be able to find them now, because since I started "parotting" most
of the copies around, have been snaffled up. But you will find the author.
As far as I know, this is where he lives.
C A Clemetson
5844 Fontainebleau Dr
New Orleans, LA 70125-4328
(504)866-1525
He is now 80, but hey. He is a mine of information, and I think that
information should be "mined" from the "source", ~ from the brains that
really know, not from what other people think the source meant to say, but
didn't. And further, I think you should ask anyone in a nutritional
supplement company you go to, for an opinion, this question. "Have you read
Clemetson's texts?" If their answer is NO, then I wouldn't go any further.
There knowledge will be inadequate. I doubt, though, if Archie has read
this text. After all, he is coming up Clemetson's age, and has spent his
whole working life using vitamin C. But he KNEW Irwin Stone, and Klenner,
so what more could he have had at that time? And most of the others who did
the work before Clemetson's texts, all worked together, so they knew how and
why.
You may feel that information has now "advanced", and "new" discoveries
invalidate the old.
I suppose technically that may have some validity, say, when it comes to
computers.
But in practicality, I couldn't give a toss what nutritional companies say,
because I know what works with me, and what does not work with me. And I
know that what has worked clinically for years now, is not suddenly
invalidated, because someone wants to, as they put it, "move with the
times".
My body hasn't. It still the same old, with one head, two arms, and two
legs. (though some would argue that at times, I am a ten-headed monster)
And my biochemistry hasn't altered that much either. For me, and countless
others, we wouldn't touch Calcium Ascorbate with a barge pole, and for good
reason, because for us, it is a long term poison.
It's up to you to find out the information, and then make that information
available so that your patients can make an informed choice.
And if they chose to use Calcium Ascorbate, and get less than desirable
results, then at least they and YOU, will know WHY that might be the case
for them.
Hilary.
********
In response to a question......Hilary Butler
Dear Laurie, In message 28301 I said the following:
Don't use Calcium ascorbate - ever. There are very good reasons why,
not least of which is how it is metabolised in the body. Calcium
Ascorbate is a no no. I learned the hard way. Brief description.
In order to metabolise ascorbate, the Vitamin C needs a sodium ion.
It splits into two compounds, one of which is used, the other
excreted. The basic biochemical unit of the cell is the sodium ion.
If you use calcium ascorbate, the calcium sheers away, and sodium is
pulled from the nearest cell with it in it. Once the ascorbate is
split, the first thing it does is to chelate out the calcium, which
should not be there. Then what you have left, is what is available.
That is why you rarely get diarrhoea with calcium ascorbate. Because
you have to use far more of it to do what sodium ascorbate does. So
how did ester C become supposedly the best. I don't know. I know my
facts, because Archie Kalokerinos explained them to me, as have a
couple of biochemists. I needed to know, because when Archie sorted
out my arthritis after the rubella vaccine, he didn't put a label on
it. I didn't know what it was. So when I ran out, I went to the
health shop, and asked for "the best". Within 9 months, I was in
deep trouble and rang Archie to ask if this stuff was supposed to
kill me (had a severe sodium deficiency, which was stuffing my immune
system even worse than normal!!!). He asked what was on the bottle,
and when I read out Calcium Ascorbate - well - I'm sure he would have
boxed my ears if he was in the same room. Just joking. He's very
calm and gentle, is Archie. Anyway, he explained that I would need
to salt everything in sight for a while, and never to do it again.
Hypercalcemia makes cancer cells grow like billie-oh...
I suggest to make a cut-and-paste file in your data base so that you
will have the facts at your fingertips...
******
In response to someone who was challenging her (someone who knew very little)
http://www.biologicaltherapies.com/links.asp
For me, I'll do it the way I know will work, for me, biologically, and what
works best for most people I know. It also seems to me that some people
"think" that what they "think" they know is the only important thing. I've
gotten past wanting to discuss issues like this, with people who see their
answers as an icon of their credibility. In my experience, they just want to
argue, and look the big guy.
I'd rather take the decades of experience by people who are on the front
line, who deal with the clinical crises and realities every day, and who
quietly go about their lives curing people. Talking heads, don't cut the
cream for me.
They can do what they want.
It's a free world.
But if in doing what they "want" in order to be "the man" , they find at
some point, that they don't get the results they wanted, and start whinging
that it doesn't work long term, then perhaps they might remember that when
it comes to Vitamin C, biochemical reality does kick in.
And further, that for many people, not only does Calcium Ascorbate NOT work,
but it makes them very sick.
And that if the biochemical reality of what Klenner, Kalokerinos et al, is
actually based on solid foundations, then to promote something which doesn't
work for many people, including me, and lots of others I know, is the first
step in giving something a very bad name.
It's a bit like the difference between a well-trained classical homeopath,
and the Jack of All Trader homeopathic tinker, so says that finding the
right remedy by applied kinesiology is the best way to do it.
I know where I'd peg my money, and it wouldn't be with a JOAT who is in
reality a MON (master of nothing).
Cheers,
Hilary.
also she said in another response.....
Sure, in a crisis, the body will utilise Calcium Ascorbate, no problem.
So
it
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath
Well Within & Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours (worldwide)
Vaccination Information & Choice Network
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm
homeopathycures@tesco.net
ONLINE Introduction to Homeopathy Classes
ONLINE Introduction to Vaccine Dangers Classes
ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL
OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE
Voicemail US 530-740-0561 UK phone from US 011-44-1874-624-936
someone who has been involved extensively with vaccine dangers and working
with cases of children & adults damaged by vaccines and testifying in
court.....she lives in New Zealand)
Discussion on Vitamin C is crucially on topic, with regard to everything. I
can understand why you might think it is sort of off topic, but then, if you
have sat, read and understood Professor C. Alan B. Clemetson's three volume
text, on Vitamin C, you might not be so ready to say that.
Vitamin C is intimately involved in just about every process that the body
uses. Unlike, say... selenium. Which is crucial, but has less overall
impact....
Vitamin C, far from being some optional extra in life and only on-topic with
vaccines, is the axis around which minerals and the whole body functions as
an interconnected web. There is, nutritionally, and biochemically, ONE
compound, without which we will all die. Sailors of old experienced and
knew this. We of this so-called modern day do not.
That one compound is vitamin C.
It is the cornerstone of the solid foundations to that thing we call
"health".
But in these days it takes upon a new significance.
We are now becoming, and breeding, a race of people whose gut flora is so
deranged, so dysfunctional, that endogenous endotoxemia from Gram negative
gut flora is a very very real danger. Further, they are addicted to foods
which make this worse, and their lives are so departed, often, from what is
right, that I truly wonder where the "wisdom" has gone.
Endotoxins, or curlins, are processed in the liver. Vaccines switch the
liver off in some children for up to 28 days. These children supposedly die
of SIDS, when it is plain from the sparse medical literature where people
accidentally find the answer, that they die from endogenous endotoxemia
which could not be controlled by the liver, and the body had insufficient
vitamin C to provide vital back-up.
More and more today, parents have less and less understanding of what
constitutes "real" health, and the role that vitamin C plays in it. And in
this world, in which there are so many more toxins, and bodily challenges, I
believe our bodily need for vitamin C has drastically increased, not
decreased. And until such time as people understand that, they will go
nowhere, period. The vitamin C intake and amount in a patients body, is the
first thing any doctor, under any circumstances, should be looking at. But
they don't understand where it fits in in the broader picture. And it isn't
just an issue that affects children, it is crucial to pregnancy, in fact, to
everything. And in something this crucial, biochemistry is everything. How
a drug is metabolised and used, is everything.
Sure, in a crisis, the body will utilise Calcium Ascorbate, no problem. So
if that is the only thing a person has on hand, in an acute situation, I
would say "go for it". But for long term situation, or situations where it
is really life and death I would only use CA if I had nothing else. If
there was a choice to hand, SA is the Vitamin C of choice.
The two things every decent doctor should understand is endotoxemia, and its
effects in the body, and circumstances in which it is triggered, and what
vitamin C does in those circumstances. And how it is involved in the sudden
deaths of babies.... AND... exactly the same situation happens in super-fit
(ha!) athletes, who suddenly drop dead during a marathon..., but the average
medical professional has NO IDEA what they are looking at. They mutter, oh,
heart failure, or this or that, or the other. But they are looking at the
end point, not the start point.
The start point is the gut. The middle point is that in this sort of
exercise (and the same applies to babies with fevers ) internal overheating
causes a massive increase in curlin production. But, the liver is not on
full-on go, because energy is required to keep the feet pounding. (or in the
baby's case, the liver is switched off by vaccines, or the load is simply
too much for it.) The curlin numbers increases quickly to unmanageable
levels, escapes through the liver, builds up super fast in the blood stream,
the cascade starts, and, and then bang. Why?
Because the athlete, having suddenly had to use massive reserves of vitamin
C, has suddenly run out of Vitamin C which is the only thing that can
reverse endotoxic shock, and that brick wall shows as an end-point of "heart
failure".
But how many doctors can actually detail to me, the physiological cascade
that I am talking about?
And its significance, not just in the circumstances I mention, but also to
pre-eclampsia and toxemia? Which, by the way, are caused by the identical
situation, but with slightly different variants....which tweak the metabolic
problems...
The ONLY thing that will save these babies, and these athletes, and
pre-eclamptic or toxemic mothers, is an understanding by themselves or
their parents, of diet, the need for good gut flora, the fact the proper
functioning of the liver is critical, and that the current attitudes on
vitamin C are neanderthal in both understanding and intent.
THAT if all those metabolic baselines fail, the last backstop is the amount
of Vitamin C in a person's body. And if you have to administer it, how the
body uses that best with the least possible biochemical disturbance. That is
the prescription of best choice.
Linus Pauling had a brilliant brain, but rather than see him as a person
deserving of two Nobel prizes which he was awarded, the medical profession
chose to see him as a fruitcake. This attitude prevails, even amongst the
"health" industry. Oh, we know better, now, that's "then". Really?
Randall, rather than continue to talk to lots of other people, and seek more
OPINIONS, I suggest that you find a copy of Clemetson's three volume medical
texts, talk to the doctors like Archie Kalokerinos, using Vitamin C ~ the
ones who have pioneered the work, like Cheraskin, those continuing like
Thomas Levy...and actually start forming your OWN opinion, based on your own
study, your own understanding and your own knowledge.
Here are the ISBN numbers:
0-8493-4841-2 (V.1)
0-8493-4842-0 (V.2)
0-8493-4843-9 (v. 3).
Publisher, 1989 by CRC Press, Inc...
Until you do that, then all you are offering your patients is what most
doctors offer.
The parrotted opinion of other people.
Most aware patients these days don't want that. They want real knowledge,
and to be treated by someone who says "I know, because I have read the
important information, talked to the people who matter, and am conversant
with the biochemistry and immunology behind the issues.
Sure, that means you will have to find Irwin Stones book as well, called
"the healing factor", just like I had to.
But IMO, for you as an OMD, you would be failing your patients if you did
not own, understand and implement the information in Clemetson's texts. You
may not be able to find them now, because since I started "parotting" most
of the copies around, have been snaffled up. But you will find the author.
As far as I know, this is where he lives.
C A Clemetson
5844 Fontainebleau Dr
New Orleans, LA 70125-4328
(504)866-1525
He is now 80, but hey. He is a mine of information, and I think that
information should be "mined" from the "source", ~ from the brains that
really know, not from what other people think the source meant to say, but
didn't. And further, I think you should ask anyone in a nutritional
supplement company you go to, for an opinion, this question. "Have you read
Clemetson's texts?" If their answer is NO, then I wouldn't go any further.
There knowledge will be inadequate. I doubt, though, if Archie has read
this text. After all, he is coming up Clemetson's age, and has spent his
whole working life using vitamin C. But he KNEW Irwin Stone, and Klenner,
so what more could he have had at that time? And most of the others who did
the work before Clemetson's texts, all worked together, so they knew how and
why.
You may feel that information has now "advanced", and "new" discoveries
invalidate the old.
I suppose technically that may have some validity, say, when it comes to
computers.
But in practicality, I couldn't give a toss what nutritional companies say,
because I know what works with me, and what does not work with me. And I
know that what has worked clinically for years now, is not suddenly
invalidated, because someone wants to, as they put it, "move with the
times".
My body hasn't. It still the same old, with one head, two arms, and two
legs. (though some would argue that at times, I am a ten-headed monster)
And my biochemistry hasn't altered that much either. For me, and countless
others, we wouldn't touch Calcium Ascorbate with a barge pole, and for good
reason, because for us, it is a long term poison.
It's up to you to find out the information, and then make that information
available so that your patients can make an informed choice.
And if they chose to use Calcium Ascorbate, and get less than desirable
results, then at least they and YOU, will know WHY that might be the case
for them.
Hilary.
********
In response to a question......Hilary Butler
Dear Laurie, In message 28301 I said the following:
Don't use Calcium ascorbate - ever. There are very good reasons why,
not least of which is how it is metabolised in the body. Calcium
Ascorbate is a no no. I learned the hard way. Brief description.
In order to metabolise ascorbate, the Vitamin C needs a sodium ion.
It splits into two compounds, one of which is used, the other
excreted. The basic biochemical unit of the cell is the sodium ion.
If you use calcium ascorbate, the calcium sheers away, and sodium is
pulled from the nearest cell with it in it. Once the ascorbate is
split, the first thing it does is to chelate out the calcium, which
should not be there. Then what you have left, is what is available.
That is why you rarely get diarrhoea with calcium ascorbate. Because
you have to use far more of it to do what sodium ascorbate does. So
how did ester C become supposedly the best. I don't know. I know my
facts, because Archie Kalokerinos explained them to me, as have a
couple of biochemists. I needed to know, because when Archie sorted
out my arthritis after the rubella vaccine, he didn't put a label on
it. I didn't know what it was. So when I ran out, I went to the
health shop, and asked for "the best". Within 9 months, I was in
deep trouble and rang Archie to ask if this stuff was supposed to
kill me (had a severe sodium deficiency, which was stuffing my immune
system even worse than normal!!!). He asked what was on the bottle,
and when I read out Calcium Ascorbate - well - I'm sure he would have
boxed my ears if he was in the same room. Just joking. He's very
calm and gentle, is Archie. Anyway, he explained that I would need
to salt everything in sight for a while, and never to do it again.
Hypercalcemia makes cancer cells grow like billie-oh...
I suggest to make a cut-and-paste file in your data base so that you
will have the facts at your fingertips...
******
In response to someone who was challenging her (someone who knew very little)
http://www.biologicaltherapies.com/links.asp
For me, I'll do it the way I know will work, for me, biologically, and what
works best for most people I know. It also seems to me that some people
"think" that what they "think" they know is the only important thing. I've
gotten past wanting to discuss issues like this, with people who see their
answers as an icon of their credibility. In my experience, they just want to
argue, and look the big guy.
I'd rather take the decades of experience by people who are on the front
line, who deal with the clinical crises and realities every day, and who
quietly go about their lives curing people. Talking heads, don't cut the
cream for me.
They can do what they want.
It's a free world.
But if in doing what they "want" in order to be "the man" , they find at
some point, that they don't get the results they wanted, and start whinging
that it doesn't work long term, then perhaps they might remember that when
it comes to Vitamin C, biochemical reality does kick in.
And further, that for many people, not only does Calcium Ascorbate NOT work,
but it makes them very sick.
And that if the biochemical reality of what Klenner, Kalokerinos et al, is
actually based on solid foundations, then to promote something which doesn't
work for many people, including me, and lots of others I know, is the first
step in giving something a very bad name.
It's a bit like the difference between a well-trained classical homeopath,
and the Jack of All Trader homeopathic tinker, so says that finding the
right remedy by applied kinesiology is the best way to do it.
I know where I'd peg my money, and it wouldn't be with a JOAT who is in
reality a MON (master of nothing).
Cheers,
Hilary.
also she said in another response.....
Sure, in a crisis, the body will utilise Calcium Ascorbate, no problem.
So
it
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath
Well Within & Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours (worldwide)
Vaccination Information & Choice Network
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm
homeopathycures@tesco.net
ONLINE Introduction to Homeopathy Classes
ONLINE Introduction to Vaccine Dangers Classes
ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL
OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE
Voicemail US 530-740-0561 UK phone from US 011-44-1874-624-936