Minutus

My friend who nibbled taro leaf has not made much progress (or rather, she's
made and then un-made it), and I'm hoping someone has insights for me.
Apparently the worst of her current symptoms have been not from the toxin
itself, but from an unusual sort of allergic reaction. She continues to
have breathing problems, from (I gather) swelling in the throat and lungs.
At a couple of points she was doing better, and then became worse again.
She's now on a very high dose of cortisone, which is apparently not being
effective.

Why would cortisone fail to resolve an allergic reaction like this? And how
might I use that information toward finding a remedy to help? (I don't have
enough information to try yet, but I'm hoping she'll tell me more tomorrow.)

Her initial symptoms suggested Arnica as a possibility -- and we were
initially confining our search to remedies that she either had or could get
easily -- but when she finally tried it (30c in water, re-succussed and
sipped about four times daily for a couple of days) it seemed only
"slightly" helpful. She says she is now having (if I remember right) chest
pains and palpitations, which she says are not (apparently) related to any
medication she's taking, and her breathing this afternoon was so labored
that she can't even talk very well.

How feasible is it to try to prescribe thru massive doses of steroids?
Initially she wanted to just use the drugs to get past the crisis, and then
"clean up" with remedies once she was no longer in fear for her life! And
it seemed reasonable enough to me, under the circumstances. But now...

???? Can anyone offer thoughts???

Thanks,
Shannon

shannon,

i have not seen the other sx, but if you are treating homeopathically, just take the case and go with it. the addiction case i reported about a year ago on list taught me a few things. i went in tentatively because the woman reported herself as a 'sensitive' person and i was treating long distance. in hind sight i might have gone with higher potencies on the outset of taking the case. you need to use your judgement, of course. but you do report this being an acute reaction to a toxic substance and there are some distinct sx around the lungs/chest and throat.

are you intimidated by the case because she is your friend? maybe you should refer her to someone else in the area. i think it pushes buttons when you are working with someone close to you and you are afraid of not being able to get it right. not a criticism, just a thought

tanya

Thanks Tanya,

Oh, I would *LOVE* to pass her along to someone else!!!!!! Unfortunately,
I've tried that and it hasn't worked out. She wants me to keep trying (at
her convenience and on her terms), but doesn't have anyone else she can work
with at present. I do have two-and-a-half strikes against me from the
outset...

From your experience and understanding, should my analysis (if/when I get a
case!) be altered by the presence of the truckloads of steroids??? Maybe
since they're not working anyway I'll still be able to get a case; or maybe
some of the symptoms *are* from the meds (despite what she says to the
contrary)... Okay, I guess I need to start by reading up on possible
side-effects of cortisone; I should have done that at the outset (kick,
kick).

Thanks,
Shannon
on 10/5/03 8:22 AM, tanya at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:

Dear Shannon, just a few thoughts and questions.

When you say the sx are from allergic reaction and not from the toxin -
surely they are the same or is she a very allergic person generally.

It is somewhat crazy to limit remedy possibilities to what is easily
obtainable - why do this?

You can prescribe through these heavy doses of drugs but the case taking has
to really begin with the initial sx, before the drugs, but also include all
sx afterwards as well so that you have a context to work with.

There should also be an agreement, or at least a wish, to come off the drugs
slowly whilst on homeopathic rx at some point, this has to be the ultimate
aim for a total cure to be had. Reassurance and daily follow-ups might be
necessary.

There seems to be some control issues here - when you say "at her
convenience and on her terms" - what does that mean.

You ask about the cortisone and suggest it has had no effect - hopefully
this is true and it will mean that the sx she has are the real ones and the
allergy has not been suppressed. I think this might suggest a robust state
of health underneath. But at the same time allergies are viewed as quite
deep seated conditions and certainly her presenting sx sound quite life
threatening.

Take the case, get the details, tread carefully and post again if you can.
on 10/5/03 1:55 PM, Robert&Shannon Nelson at shannonnelson@tds.net wrote:

My friend who nibbled taro leaf has not made much progress (or rather, she's
made and then un-made it), and I'm hoping someone has insights for me.
Apparently the worst of her current symptoms have been not from the toxin
itself, but from an unusual sort of allergic reaction. She continues to
have breathing problems, from (I gather) swelling in the throat and lungs.
At a couple of points she was doing better, and then became worse again.
She's now on a very high dose of cortisone, which is apparently not being
effective.

Why would cortisone fail to resolve an allergic reaction like this? And how
might I use that information toward finding a remedy to help? (I don't have
enough information to try yet, but I'm hoping she'll tell me more tomorrow.)

Her initial symptoms suggested Arnica as a possibility -- and we were
initially confining our search to remedies that she either had or could get
easily -- but when she finally tried it (30c in water, re-succussed and
sipped about four times daily for a couple of days) it seemed only
"slightly" helpful. She says she is now having (if I remember right) chest
pains and palpitations, which she says are not (apparently) related to any
medication she's taking, and her breathing this afternoon was so labored
that she can't even talk very well.

How feasible is it to try to prescribe thru massive doses of steroids?
Initially she wanted to just use the drugs to get past the crisis, and then
"clean up" with remedies once she was no longer in fear for her life! And
it seemed reasonable enough to me, under the circumstances. But now...

???? Can anyone offer thoughts???

Thanks,
Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Joy,

Answers interspersed:

on 10/5/03 10:54 AM, Joy Lucas at joy.lucas@ntlworld.com wrote:
Well, that's just based on what she's being told by the doctors etc. They
say that that type of taro produces the usual effect of severe irritation to
the throat, and perhaps other areas, but apparently mainly (I think) the
mouth and throat. They say that in *some* cases there is also a generalized
histamine-type reaction, which the doctors have apparently classed as
allergic. They say that usually this reaction is handled by cortisone
(which hers so far is not, or at least not lastingly), and they have found
no record of asthma as a result of the poisoning. So, I suppose the asthma
will be a useful prescribing symptom, tho I don't have any details from her
yet. (Since shortly after the poisoning she has developed very severe
asthma, which she had never had any trace of in the past.)

I suppose the "allergy" must be to some component of the leaf, *other* than
the toxin, but that's only my guess!
She has lots and lots of health issues (this is the same person I've written
about in connection to epilepsy -- much better since ign. and nat-m -- and
other pretty dramatic problems.
Because it was evening when we talked, and she was in immediate crisis. I
was proceeding on the theory of "use what you have available", thinking that
we would at least get *some* help (Arnica did suit a lot of what she was
describing), and could proceed from there in the morning. I had not counted
on her calling 911 before giving the arnica any try at all! Maybe she
thought it was too "easy" an answer to take seriously??? I really don't
know.
So e.g. she has developed chest pains and "palpitations"; I'm looking for a
remedy that includes the prior state (e.g. "I'm okay, can I go home now?")
and also the chest pains etc. (after I get whatever details I can)? Is it
safe to assume that the same remedy is needed now, as was needed initially?
(Or maybe I have to start with that assumption, just to have somewhere to
start???)
Yes, she very much wants to come off the drugs.
Sigh, complicated. She's easier to work with lately than in the past (ign.
and nat-m had a *decidedly* nice effect on her "prickliness", aversion to
consolation, and other difficulties!!!!!), but still there are lots of
issues. Some of it has to do with her health problems -- which *had*
improved greatly in the past few months, but wow, this won't help... She
goes into overload and overwhelm very easily, and can react by slapping away
offers of help. Not because she doesn't *want* help, but because, well, she
goes into overload and overwhelm. So I mostly wait until she *asks* me for
help, or at least make my offers veeeerrry cautiously ("Riddle: How do you
hug a porcupine?" ). But as to her *current* state of mind etc., I
haven't had much lately, and that, I realize, will be essential to
understand.
Sadly, "robust state of health" is not there... Well, maybe it is, but
overlaid by a whole lot of other stuff.
Thanks, I sure will.
Does the presence of the steroids change my prescribing procedure? I mean,
should I expect to prefer either higher or lower potency, and will I need to
repeat more often than otherwise? I'm sure I ought to remember this, but
argh, I don't...

Thanks,
Shannon

Dear Shannon, I think you are gong to have to plod through this case very
very carefully. Her present state is one issue amongst many it would seem
and needs to be addressed as part of the whole - whatever those other issues
are, epilepsy certainly suggests deep pathology as well.

But don't over complicate the case but concentrate on facts and details and
certainly do not use assumptions. Take the whole case and put it all into
perspective - what needs to be cured, does one remedy cover the whole
picture, what effect has the cortisone had (potentised cortisone or
histamine might be needed for example) would seem to be the initial sort of
questions to be asking of the case. You really need to be able to tell if
the latter sx are the result of her drugs or not.

Allergies can sometimes take a long time to cure but if there are crisis
situations, as there often are in asthma type conditions, then that has to
be addressed first in my opinion, but in context of the whole case. If she
turns out to require Apis, for example, then she needs to have that rx with
her, possibly in LM solution, when and if she needs to take it. Others might
disagree with this, but it would be my approach. Then as the emergency
situation subsides and clears you can and should be able to move on. See the
case for for what it is and don't make any assumptions or decisions before
you have taken the whole case.

As an aside the 'prickly porcupine' state makes one think of Chocolate
(delusion hedgehog!!) and also Urtica as a highly allergic remedy, and I
mentioned Apis only as a pointer because she has had Nat mur in the past
which you say has helped her - but you must take the whole case as carefully
as possible and give what is required.

Hope I have answered your points.

Best, Joy

www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
on 10/5/03 7:31 PM, Robert&Shannon Nelson at shannonnelson@tds.net wrote:

Hi Joy,

Answers interspersed:

on 10/5/03 10:54 AM, Joy Lucas at joy.lucas@ntlworld.com wrote:
Well, that's just based on what she's being told by the doctors etc. They
say that that type of taro produces the usual effect of severe irritation to
the throat, and perhaps other areas, but apparently mainly (I think) the
mouth and throat. They say that in *some* cases there is also a generalized
histamine-type reaction, which the doctors have apparently classed as
allergic. They say that usually this reaction is handled by cortisone
(which hers so far is not, or at least not lastingly), and they have found
no record of asthma as a result of the poisoning. So, I suppose the asthma
will be a useful prescribing symptom, tho I don't have any details from her
yet. (Since shortly after the poisoning she has developed very severe
asthma, which she had never had any trace of in the past.)

I suppose the "allergy" must be to some component of the leaf, *other* than
the toxin, but that's only my guess!
She has lots and lots of health issues (this is the same person I've written
about in connection to epilepsy -- much better since ign. and nat-m -- and
other pretty dramatic problems.
Because it was evening when we talked, and she was in immediate crisis. I
was proceeding on the theory of "use what you have available", thinking that
we would at least get *some* help (Arnica did suit a lot of what she was
describing), and could proceed from there in the morning. I had not counted
on her calling 911 before giving the arnica any try at all! Maybe she
thought it was too "easy" an answer to take seriously??? I really don't
know.
So e.g. she has developed chest pains and "palpitations"; I'm looking for a
remedy that includes the prior state (e.g. "I'm okay, can I go home now?")
and also the chest pains etc. (after I get whatever details I can)? Is it
safe to assume that the same remedy is needed now, as was needed initially?
(Or maybe I have to start with that assumption, just to have somewhere to
start???)
Yes, she very much wants to come off the drugs.
Sigh, complicated. She's easier to work with lately than in the past (ign.
and nat-m had a *decidedly* nice effect on her "prickliness", aversion to
consolation, and other difficulties!!!!!), but still there are lots of
issues. Some of it has to do with her health problems -- which *had*
improved greatly in the past few months, but wow, this won't help... She
goes into overload and overwhelm very easily, and can react by slapping away
offers of help. Not because she doesn't *want* help, but because, well, she
goes into overload and overwhelm. So I mostly wait until she *asks* me for
help, or at least make my offers veeeerrry cautiously ("Riddle: How do you
hug a porcupine?" ). But as to her *current* state of mind etc., I
haven't had much lately, and that, I realize, will be essential to
understand.
Sadly, "robust state of health" is not there... Well, maybe it is, but
overlaid by a whole lot of other stuff.
Thanks, I sure will.
Does the presence of the steroids change my prescribing procedure? I mean,
should I expect to prefer either higher or lower potency, and will I need to
repeat more often than otherwise? I'm sure I ought to remember this, but
argh, I don't...

Thanks,
Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yes, get a handle on the effects of the drugs and factor that in with her general types of reactions to drugs, trauma
and life in general.

i am always in a state of perplexity as to how to handle a person on drugs. i guess i feel i should still
try to deal with them. professional wisdom has come down on several different sides of this question,
as i am sure you know already. some have suggested going in on low potencies, daily. i ususally think
it is all a puzzle where you need to find the right pieces to get you going.

so, use your instincts, intuition and wisdom

tanya