Minutus

I have a very frustrated mum seeking help with her 3 yr old daughter Her
previously toilet-trained daughter has taken to soiling her pants, and as
her mother expresses, seems to love to do it, knowing it is wrong behaviour.
I visited the family home to take the cases of two children, and observed
the girl wet her pants. She gets told to go to the toilet(no problem with
how this is asked, in my opinion), and looks quite desperately in need of
going (clutches herself), but refuses to go(seems to acknowledge "yes
mummy" - appears to hear properly the request), then wet her pants. Is
normally very happy to share with her two brothers, but if asked to, is
resentful of this. When the pants-soiling incidents happen, which has
become more frequent since the family moved from Belgium to Australia 4
months ago, daughter looks defiantly at mum and says "I've just pooed my
pants - that's wrong isn't it?". She loves milk, really loves milk(room
temp or warmed). Has a vomiting tendency if feeling unwell. Can go for
days without a bowel motion, and seems really out of sorts by it. Gets
conjunctivitis anytime she is unwell (Pulsatilla). Walked late, talked
early. Now very confident and chatty. Mum wants help with her desire to
press her mum's buttons (and loving it) - daughter gets a shrill scream
going, which is quite despairing to her Sepia mum. Always wants her way,
and gets quite locked into this. Has bitten and scratched other children.
She is a blond girl, not fine-featured, but not fat. Scared of trying new
things. A quick learner(e.g. born in Belgium - has already picked up the
Australian accent). She has had Lycopodium in the past, but I don't feel
this is what she needs right now. I've looked at Pulsatilla, but didn't
quite fit. Also Tuberculinum doesn't quite fit. Am thinking of Cina. Guess
when I read the mentals, the obstination/defiance doesn't seem quite
pronounced enough. She seems to want attention, and is quite happy to
accept cuddles, but the screaming is so annoying for her mum(who is coping
much better since Sepia last week). Even thought of Calc Carb, but doesn't
have the better by constipation, and no sweatiness. Any thoughts on a child
with a nasty streak as described??

To me, this brings Med to mind, or perhaps Carc (really!).
My little guy did a whole lot of this before we got him onto Med (his first
successful rx was Carc BTW, and there were *many* similarities).

My first thought was Med, but then crossing (for the button-pushing)

MIND; FIGHT, wants to: androc., atro., bell., bov., carc., cocc., ephe.,
falco-p., hipp., hyos., lac-cpr., lac-eq., lap-gr-m., med., merc., musa,
querc-r., sec., sulo-ac., tub., tung.

with

GENERALITIES; FOOD and drinks; milk; desires (K485, SRII-258, G4114):
Lycps., Rhus-t., apis, ars., aur., bry., cact., calc., carc., chel.,
dys-co., elaps, lac-c., merc., nat-m., nux-v., ph-ac., phos., sabad., sil.,
staph., stront-c., tub., verat., vip., abrot., adlu., aegle-f., anac.,
androc., ant-t., apisin., aran., asar., aur-ar., aur-s., bac., bapt., bor.,
bov., calc-p., calc-sil., cand-a., chelin., cist., gaert., graph., hyper.,
kali-i., kola., lac-h., lac-leo., lach., lact., lap-c-b., mag-c., mand.,
mang., nat-s., ozone, phel., sabal., sabin., sac-alb., sanic., sulph.,
syc-co.

Yields only 5 rxs in both: Tub, Carc, androc, bov, merc.

Does she have urging with the constipation? If not and we add
RECTUM; CONSTIPATION; general; urging; absent: alum., bry., hydr., op.,
aran-s., carc., curc., graph., indol., mag-m., pitu-a., sanic., sulph.,
term-c., thea., verat.

Carc is the only one in all three.

I know this isn't what we usually think of as Carc, but look thru the rubric
extraction and see all the unexpected things that are there! Carc does
*not* have to be a doormat!!!!!

Interested to know what works out!
Shannon
on 3/28/03 1:54 AM, Rhonda Bird at rbirdhomeopath@powerup.com.au wrote:

I would really try to ask the child why she poos in her pants. Does she want to be changed straight away or does she want to "hold on to it". This may be the key. Is she holding onto to her stool for days or is it constipation. I have sorted a kid out who held onto it with Sulphur using the 2nd rubric below. I've got a 2.5 year old coming in on Monday with chronic constipation!!!
Murphy - Children
CONSTIPATION, children holding back stool, from (2)

2 caust, 2 nat-m

Murphy - Rectum

CONSTIPATION, painful, compels child to desist from effort (3)

1 ign, 1 lyc, 2 sulph

Regards,

Rochelle
www.rochellemarsden.co.uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rochelle wrote: I would really try to ask the child why she poos in her
pants. Does she want to be changed straight away or does she want to "hold
on to it". This may be the key. Is she holding onto to her stool for days or
is it constipation.>>>

Hi Rochelle,

I did ask the child why she was, and just got "just 'cos"!! with an impish
grin. So defiance, or obstinacy or any other word that would explain this
behaviour seemed to feature quite strongly. I know the child tells her
mother after each "accident", so must want to be cleaned up. I must admit
questioning a 3 yr old, without "leading" the answers is challenging - any
clues??

Thanks for the rubrics though - I'll keep them in mind.
Regards, Rhonda

Hi Shannon,
first

I had thought of Tuberculinum, but not these other two. Carcinosin
definitely fits the destructive outburst, disobedience, desire for milk,
vomiting tendency. This kid loves to sleep - there is never any battle at
bed-time, and mum said quite often she will go looking for her in the house,
and find her curled asleep somewhere. Still having an afternoon nap. Do
Carcinosin love to sleep that much??

Thanks for your thoughts,
Rhonda

Hm, Carc is actually known for sleep*lessness, and for not needing much
sleep. I'm not sure how big a problem this difference is, but it does give
pause... Carc is under "catnaps", and also in "sleep, heavy". ?

Does this rubric fit?
SLEEP; SHORT; general; catnaps, in: camph., rhus-t., rumx., sec., carb-ac.,
carc., sel., sulph., tama., vero-o.

I wonder whether carb-ac has any similarity (shouldn't be here now, so can't
check, waaah!)?

Does she show signs of sleepiness beforehand (Would the rubric Overpowering
sleepiness suit?)

Shannon
on 3/28/03 9:55 AM, Rhonda Bird at rbirdhomeopath@powerup.com.au wrote:

Hi
I have had a similar case where the mum was Sepia and the child as
you describe, the lettle girl ended up needing Sepia also. The
rubric used was FAECES URINAATING AND GOING TO STOOL EVERYWHERE,
CHILDREN: SEP, Hyos, sulph, sil. Constipation with ineffectual
urging so that she simply never knew when it would come and then was
defiant. Nasal congestion from milk which she really loves.

Hope that helps
Merrilee

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Rhonda Bird"
wrote:
daughter Her
and as
behaviour.
observed
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acknowledge "yes
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to, is
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Australia 4
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children.
trying new
up the
don't feel
didn't
Cina. Guess
quite
happy to
is coping
but doesn't
on a child

Dear Rhonda, thanks for sharing this case.

This seems to be about retention and control - either in excess or
insufficiency. This is reflected in both the constipation and the
involuntary stool and urine - control and a lack of it. This oscillation is
seen in many of the nosodes, especially Tuberculinum, Carcinosin and
Medorrhinum - taken singly though they have extremely different remedy
pictures. These nosodes bring into play many other relevant remedies such as
Silicea; Phosphorous; Thuja; even Sulph; and also the combo remedies such as
Calc Phos; Calc Silicata; etc.

What I also thought was interesting was the fact that she asked the question
(or stated the fact) that what she had done (when soiling herself), was
wrong. DELUSION SHE HAS DONE WRONG and ANXIETY AS IF COMMITTED A CRIME. For
some reason (whether it is the relationship with her mother or not) she
seems stuck in this phase of right or wrong - retention or involuntary
actions. This too is reflected in the fact that she can play and share and
yet she bites and scratches other children.

This led me to thinking about two, not unrelated, remedies - both of which
are closely allied to Lycopodium, which you say she has had in the past.

Chelidonium - has anxiety of conscience, as if guilty of a crime, lots of
digestive problems (is a liver remedy like Lycopodium), has issues about
being observed, is forgetful about what they have just done, is obstinate
and sulky and often quarrelsome, has shrieking, very sleepy and drowsy and
fall asleep at all times of the day, craves milk especially warm, has a
number of problems with eyes and has constipation and involuntary stools.
The levels of anxiety are quite high and could easily extend to her anxiety
about new and unfamiliar experiences (again, like Lycopodium).

If she is further along the line of manipulating the situation then:-

Anacardium - the theme running though this remedy is loss of control. It has
delusion she has done wrong, there is a whole range of contradictory
impulses because they cannot harmonise between right and wrong,
contradiction of will - one right and one wrong. Lots of anxieties, loss of
confidence, can be cruel and spiteful, defiant and obstinate. A real mixture
between affectionate, mischievous and malicious. Lots of screaming. Little
devils (parents often call their children this). The digestive system is
plugged up (again, similar to Lyc), so there is inactivity of the rectum.
There is a craving for milk. They doze on and off all through the day. The
time modalities are very similar to Lyc.

Also bear in mind that as her mother she might need this remedy also - has a
lot of similarities with what you write about the case.

Just a few thoughts,

best wishes, Joy.

Rochelle wrote: >>

Rochelle and everyone!

Yet more feedback from the mum . This girl doesn't seem to be bothered
about having her dirty pants changed immediately, unless the mum brings her
attention to it, then REALLY must have them changed. Mum reported to me
that her and her husband went out a few nights ago, and her daughter soiled
her pants with the baby-sitter in charge. Went unnoticed for quite a while,
and child didn't seem bothered about it. Interesting, as I was beginning to
think there was some dynamics between the mother and child's behaviour
exclusively, but not so. Mum also reported daughter has never complained
about any pain or discomfort on passing a stool. Always tells her mum that
she doesn't need to go, then inevitably does so. Stool is usually quite
soft. I really can't find the rubric to fit the change of moving to another
country, as this is when the involuntary stool/urination started. I even
asked mum whether the child had put on a tantrum about not wanting to leave
Belgium, but mum doesn't think so.

Okay, getting ready to prescribe, will keep you posted!
Rhonda

Hi Joy,

You wrote:
To me it seemed as tho that asking/saying it was wrong, was simply to
confirm that she had "made trouble" -- *as she had desired/intended*. Going
along with the impish look and etc.???

When my son did this it wasn't around the issue of potty training -- but I'm
sure that's only because it never occurred to him! His aim was to be
annoying, provoke a conflict, and maybe that's why I'm assuming the same
here. (That plus the impish looks...)

Shannon
For