Minutus

I have a queery
Can someone point to the location of the info about Arsenicum having the
need to be tidy and clean up their house?
I have just had a look through the provings in Allens and the Hering
volumes, and failed to find it. In Allens, there were 220 provers, and one
was disposed to busy himself, and a couple (Fred Hahnemann & Langhammer)
became fretful, sensitive, the least thing made them angry.
I also came across a few who became fault finding, but by no means was it
unanimous.

It seems that the word "Fastidious" has various different meanings, that
changed over time. From Webster's 1828 online

FASTID'IOUS, a. [L. fastidiousus, from fastidio, to disdain from fastus,
haughtiness. See Heb.]

1. Disdainful; squeamish; delicate to a fault; over nice; difficult to
please; as a fastidious mind or taste.

2. Squeamish; rejecting what is common or not very nice; suited with
difficulty; as a fastidious appetite.

This definition fits quite a few of the symptoms produced in poisonings and
provings of Arsenicum, so I feel that the term 'fastidious' applies to the
above definition in Arsenicum's case. The loathing for food (fastidium) came
through, as these people were very sick.

The following description that Joy gave for fastidious is an example of how
the meaning can be expanded, or changed even, and this description is very
commonly given by many authors for Arsenicum. In the provings, there are not
many mental symptoms compared to the other symptoms produced by this drug.



It is interesting that Hering talks of the lack of provings of this remedy
and the host of poisonings as the source of symptoms. He also points out
that there was a lack of symptoms produced from the higher potencies.

This leads me to another queery. If for instance, the highest potency proved
was 1c- 30 c, then if we are to only give a remedy that is slightly stronger
than the symptom it can produce in order to cure, then why are we giving
people 200, 1M and higher? It seems to me that if the provings and
poisonings relate to crude and close to crude doses, then we should be using
low potencies to treat the symptoms.

If anyone is interested and would like me to post privately or onto the list
the proving/poisioning symptoms of Ars mentals, I would be happy to so that
everyone may see what I am talking about. Otherwise, the info is available
in Chronic disease, Allens, and Hering.

Regards

Robyn

"Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed
to guard the past" (Maurice Maeterlinck)

Hi Robyn,

*Thanks* for the older definition of "fastidious" -- interesting!
However, Ars is also under

MIND; REST; cannot, when things are not in proper place (K72, SRI-835, G57):
anac., ars., carc.Brk, ephe.267, lac-eq.HrkA, sep.KCR, sulph.Knt

and since the entry appears with no author abbreviation after it, that means
(this is from MacRep) that the original source of the entry is Hahnemann.

I had wondered why we had these two seemingly identical rubrics, and you've
answered that, thanks!

Shannon
on 1/26/03 8:37 PM, Robyn Foley at folcook@dodo.com.au wrote:

Hi Shannon
Interestingly, in RADAR the author for Ars in that rubric is Kent. However,
when doing a search in EH, putting in MIND, REST, PROPER PLACE I only came
up with two references and they were Murphy's rep and Schroyens Synthesis.

There is no mention of this symptom in Hahneman's Chronic diseases or Allens
or Hering, so where did it come from? a proving or clinical experience or
where?

Robyn

"Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed
to guard the past" (Maurice Maeterlinck)

Shannon,
don't you think it is rather a big leap from "not easy to please,
censorious" to "cannot rest when things not in proper place" to
"perfectionist, has to keep everything tidy etc etc.....?

Robyn

"Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed
to guard the past" (Maurice Maeterlinck)

robyn

i think your first dictionary definition gives it. i think of fastidious people i know, arsenicum types, and
i would say their fastidiousness could come from being delicte to a fault. they cant abide by anything
being out of place; any bit of dust makes them nuts--it feels too filthy, etc

i think its how words become used differently over time or how our language changes

tanya
FASTID'IOUS, a. [L. fastidiousus, from fastidio, to disdain from fastus,
haughtiness. See Heb.]

1. Disdainful; squeamish; delicate to a fault; over nice; difficult to
please; as a fastidious mind or taste.

2. Squeamish; rejecting what is common or not very nice; suited with
difficulty; as a fastidious appetite.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Robyn,
From Kent:
LECTURES ON HOMŒOPATHIC MATERIA MEDICA on
http://homeoint.org/books3/kentmm/ars.htm

"Sensitiveness is a feature of Arsenic; sensitiveness to smell and
touch; over sensitiveness of all the senses. A peculiar feature that
perhaps I have not brought out is the over sensitiveness to the
circumstances and surroundings of the room.

The Arsenicum patient is an extremely fastidious patient. Hering once
described him as "the gold headed cane patient." If this is carried out
in a woman who is sick in bed she is in great distress if every picture
on the wall does not hang perfectly straight.

Those who are sensitive to disorder and confusion and the disturbed and
made worse until everything is placed in order have a morbid
fastidiousness which has its similimum in Arsenic."

I didn't find any hints on this sort of behavious in the German versions
of the MMP, the CD nor any hints in erlier versions of von
Boenninghausen or in Jahr's manual.

Therefore my conclusions would be it came from clinical experience.

This coincides with my sources.
I have an early English-German-English dictionary from the 1830s - and
your description of Webster's is similar (though not identical) to the
German meanings.

Best,

Gaby

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gaby Rottler
Germany
rottler@curantur.de

http://www.curantur.de
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hm, interesting.
Perhaps it's a mistake, then.
But it's a mistake that's been a useful guiding symptom, in my experience.
I recall a teaching course where the main sign of "re-dose time" was a
return of fanaticism over leaves on the porch. I recall it mentioned as a
proving symptom, which is in fact what gave rise to the "joking" I'd
mentioned.

Searching RefWks similarly, I find it also under Gunavante and Sankaran, tho
I realize these aren't the original sources you're asking about.

Shannon
on 1/26/03 10:53 PM, Robyn Foley at folcook@dodo.com.au wrote:

From your second and third ("things in proper place" to "has to keep
everything tidy") does not seem a leap. From "censorious" to those
certainly is, which is why I was interested in your earlier definition
(fortunately also supported by other rubrics for Ars), and "relieved" to see
the "proper place" rubric there as well. Evidently Ars covers both
sensitivities, so in this instance our changed understanding of the word has
not led us astray. Which however might not be the case for other remedies.

The two meanings are not completely different, only that in today's
understanding there's an emphasis on "things", whereas the original idea's
emphasis is broader. Our current definition seems like a subset, rather
than a fundamentally different idea. We can easily imagine someone who is
"fastidious" about ideas or communication, but doesn't much care about the
state of the living room, or vice versa. If we're not aware of the original
definition, we might fail to use the rubric where it would be appropriate.

Another similar rubric, which appears among the list of cross-references for
all three (censorious, cannot rest unless, and fastidious) is "conscientious
about trifles". Looks like we'll do well to be aware of all three rubrics,
and combine them when needed.

Shannon
on 1/26/03 11:04 PM, Robyn Foley at folcook@dodo.com.au wrote:

Lovely, Gaby!

Do you find Hering's "gold headed cane" reference? I wonder whether that
gives indication of the source of the observation? It does indeed sound
like a clinical symptom -- and one that supports the idea of including
these, once they're well established!

Shannon
on 1/27/03 2:07 AM, Gaby Rottler at rottler@curantur.de wrote: