Horizon
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:59 am
Dear Jan & Colleagues
Of course the programme was excellent in the ways that Jan describes but
some may see it excellent at putting up a fair ground 'aunt Sally' to be
knocked down. It the proceeded to knock down the aunt Sally very effectively
in the eyes of the sceptical or wavers.
What Concerns me is having a level playing field.
It will not be the first time that 'scientist' have cooked up experimental
results. The difference with homoeopathy is that every day we see the truth
of homoeopathy in our patients' reactions. At the same time I think we have
every right to question the actions/involvement of a man who is world famous
at being a conjurer. After all what is a conjuror? - nothing but a
PROFESSIONAL cheat. They pretend at the truth. In the olden days they even
may have been regarded as a prophet! But they are cheats and nothing else.
On stage we laugh and even applaud them. But in the Lab, the results can be
devastating especially when there could be conflicts of interest.
Then when the same professional cheat bets $1m against something and
experiments that have been repeated over and over again satisfactorily then
appear not to work after some one fiddles with coding and recoding, I get to
wonder. Where is the $1m coming from? Did they say? I have to watch the
tape again.
As I stated, no one questioned the FACT why there was still a reaction
taking place. This was such an important outcome of the experiment. As far
as the experiment is concerned, I think the reaction of the histamine and
the cells is an automatic reaction. The disease (if any) of the animal is
irrelevant as it can be assumed that this is the same stuff that had shown
the experiment to work before.
We had positives and negatives right the way through at both labs. The
ratios were similar at 9/11 and 11/9 [which they said was nothing but
random results !!]. It was not as if there were no positives. If there were
no positives, then I would have said OK this exp has demonstrated
EFFECTIVELY that at extreme dilutions there is no reaction.
As I said what concerns me, is the fact that there were positive reactions
where none were thought possible. So either ordinary water (diluted and
succussed) has similar powers to the histamine solution diluted and
succussed or that there was some kind of a switch. We need to find out.
If you want to have the transcript, pls go to the following site
Please see
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/
and from that site explore the Homeopathy story in depth:
· Programme summary
· Questions and answers
· Transcript
· Weblinks
May the ever lasting truth win the day!
Soroush
Message: 23
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:59:48 +0100
From: "Jan Klüssendorf"
Subject: RE: Horizon - Homeopathy
Dear Friends,
Pls, don't let us react like a sect.
It was an EXCELLENT program, which explained Homeopathy very well (except
maybe the Vital Force principle) and was totally neutral in its approach.
Let's not be bad losers.
Yes, the outcome was not what we had hopped for, but instead of putting this
under the carpet and start blaming people and reproach them of being
dishonest, why don't we accept a fact as a fact.
Maybe Simon was right when He says:
"They forgot to find out what the symptoms were of the
creature from whom the blood (histamine) sample was
taken and match the remedy accordingly."
But then the Homeopaths which participated at the program should have
thought about that in ADVANCE.
And reproaching to the program(makers) and this Randi person that he would
have switched the labels is really a poor insinuation.
And don't forget, not everything about the program was negative or bad:
* they explained H very well
* they mentioned very clear how many people use H, even very famous ones
* they reported that there were done a lot of tests which proved that H
worked even better then placebo
* they mentioned very explicitly that H is an excellent treatment for
animals
The *only* thing what failed was the test which had to prove HOW H works.
Big deal !!!!
There will be other experiments.
And if Homeopathic society (and lab's etc....) would put their forces
together to conduct and or support much more of this basic work, instead of
focussing on dubious para-normal phenomena like paper remedies, dream
provings, ART etc....we would be at this VERY moment much further then we
are today, acting the injured party.
Jan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Of course the programme was excellent in the ways that Jan describes but
some may see it excellent at putting up a fair ground 'aunt Sally' to be
knocked down. It the proceeded to knock down the aunt Sally very effectively
in the eyes of the sceptical or wavers.
What Concerns me is having a level playing field.
It will not be the first time that 'scientist' have cooked up experimental
results. The difference with homoeopathy is that every day we see the truth
of homoeopathy in our patients' reactions. At the same time I think we have
every right to question the actions/involvement of a man who is world famous
at being a conjurer. After all what is a conjuror? - nothing but a
PROFESSIONAL cheat. They pretend at the truth. In the olden days they even
may have been regarded as a prophet! But they are cheats and nothing else.
On stage we laugh and even applaud them. But in the Lab, the results can be
devastating especially when there could be conflicts of interest.
Then when the same professional cheat bets $1m against something and
experiments that have been repeated over and over again satisfactorily then
appear not to work after some one fiddles with coding and recoding, I get to
wonder. Where is the $1m coming from? Did they say? I have to watch the
tape again.
As I stated, no one questioned the FACT why there was still a reaction
taking place. This was such an important outcome of the experiment. As far
as the experiment is concerned, I think the reaction of the histamine and
the cells is an automatic reaction. The disease (if any) of the animal is
irrelevant as it can be assumed that this is the same stuff that had shown
the experiment to work before.
We had positives and negatives right the way through at both labs. The
ratios were similar at 9/11 and 11/9 [which they said was nothing but
random results !!]. It was not as if there were no positives. If there were
no positives, then I would have said OK this exp has demonstrated
EFFECTIVELY that at extreme dilutions there is no reaction.
As I said what concerns me, is the fact that there were positive reactions
where none were thought possible. So either ordinary water (diluted and
succussed) has similar powers to the histamine solution diluted and
succussed or that there was some kind of a switch. We need to find out.
If you want to have the transcript, pls go to the following site
Please see
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/
and from that site explore the Homeopathy story in depth:
· Programme summary
· Questions and answers
· Transcript
· Weblinks
May the ever lasting truth win the day!
Soroush
Message: 23
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:59:48 +0100
From: "Jan Klüssendorf"
Subject: RE: Horizon - Homeopathy
Dear Friends,
Pls, don't let us react like a sect.
It was an EXCELLENT program, which explained Homeopathy very well (except
maybe the Vital Force principle) and was totally neutral in its approach.
Let's not be bad losers.
Yes, the outcome was not what we had hopped for, but instead of putting this
under the carpet and start blaming people and reproach them of being
dishonest, why don't we accept a fact as a fact.
Maybe Simon was right when He says:
"They forgot to find out what the symptoms were of the
creature from whom the blood (histamine) sample was
taken and match the remedy accordingly."
But then the Homeopaths which participated at the program should have
thought about that in ADVANCE.
And reproaching to the program(makers) and this Randi person that he would
have switched the labels is really a poor insinuation.
And don't forget, not everything about the program was negative or bad:
* they explained H very well
* they mentioned very clear how many people use H, even very famous ones
* they reported that there were done a lot of tests which proved that H
worked even better then placebo
* they mentioned very explicitly that H is an excellent treatment for
animals
The *only* thing what failed was the test which had to prove HOW H works.
Big deal !!!!
There will be other experiments.
And if Homeopathic society (and lab's etc....) would put their forces
together to conduct and or support much more of this basic work, instead of
focussing on dubious para-normal phenomena like paper remedies, dream
provings, ART etc....we would be at this VERY moment much further then we
are today, acting the injured party.
Jan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]