Minutus

Soroush writes:
If you read the first paras of the Organon Hn tries to describe the VF.
I view it as a manager for the whole organism.

isali inserts:
#7 & 11 asserts that the outward manifestations is a reflection of the internal essence of the morbidity, of the affection of the vital force,...and must be the sole means whereby the disease is made known & simultaneously what remedy is required...with the intention to acquire a transformation into a healthy state.

Soroush writes:
When it is working perfectly, it has no limits to its action and enables the
organism to achieve the higher reasons for which it was created. It will
maintain the organism in a perfect manner with measured responses for every
eventuality. [Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body goes the old Eastern saying - I
think the reverse is also true as they are just parts of the one system and
NOT separate.]

isali writes:
The principle underlying the Eastern saying is referred to as 'the three treasures' in TCM, which is one of the two principles of taoism. It asserts and is with agreement with homeopathic concepts that the mind and body are inseparable aspects of the whole organism while there is a presence of a vital force.

#9&10, is a concurrence of this principle & in agreement with both our assertions. "The material orgnism without the vital force, is capable of no sensation, no function, no self preservation......"

I interpret susceptibility to mean the consequence of the interdependent interrelationship between the automatic life force and a miasm. This as an acute or chronic manifestation of an exogenous or endogenous nature. #12,15

The state of health and the reference to cure becomes the removal of the morbid signs and symtoms, #17 & 19,

Soroush writes:
If you look at an onion that has started to sprout in storage, you can of
course see the green shoots. If onions are properly stored, they do not
sprout.

isali writes:
This seems to correlate to some understanding of the affect of the external environment upon the state of health and of which it too has an analogy to the first principle in TCM which asserts that the 'natural law' establishes an interrelationship of the organism with the heavens and the earth, and though with different words, homeopathy asserts the same as you allude to above.

Soroush writes:
If you were to cut the onion perpendicular to the shoots at the middle of
the onion then you can see the rings....if you were to peel the onion one layer at a time you would get the same result.....I imagine this inner brown ring to be the miasm.
And in some cases we find that we are literally having to use a series of
remedies and in effect peeling one layer at a time. (So simply put, if we did not have our original miasm(s) we should be resistance to external disease influences.]

isali writes:
There will no life force in the absence of a miasm. They are two interdependent aspects of an organism. And this is confirmed by the ability of allopathic scientific inquiry that is capable of identification of DNA structures in organisms without an active vital force. They may be free of morbid expressions but they are also wanting of organic life presence, and an automatic life force.

The scientific inquiry is able to identify the presence of the element of the miasm, but it is without expression due to the absence of a vital force.

Soroush writes:
We all have to and NEED to die

isali writes:
Death is the expression of the morbidity of the chronic miasm for which the automatic vital force is no longer capable of addressing with favorable results #72.
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Good day. I hope that my cut and paste is accurate.

Soroush writes:
With thanks to his comments, Isali also wrote: "There will no life force in
the absence of a miasm. "
I have a MAJOR problem with this statement! I would like to know where
Isali got this assertion from and the logic behind it.
Having read in the Organon that in health the vital force has no limits and
it is required to maintain order in the organism.

isali writes:
Well firstly with the agreement that the organism dies eventually seems to infer that some morbid element ultimately pre-empted the fullfillment of the vital force. And that during the life's expression of the organism there are varied and periodic reflections of both morbid conditions and the automatic vital force.

isali inserts:
#7 & 11 asserts that the outward manifestations is a reflection of the internal essence of the morbidity, of the affection of the vital force,...and must be the sole means whereby the disease is made known & simultaneously what remedy is required...with the intention to acquire a transformation into a healthy state.

isali writes:
I read #7&9 as suggesting a simultaneous manifestation of morbidity and profile of remedy required to, by inference of principle, demonstrate a 'cure'. The limits of the automatic vital force is the fullfillment of the intention to acquire a transformation of morbidity into an asymptomic condition. Asymptomatic is the key as the mental terrain may not always have an outward manifestation which is symptomatic. Sometimes we obtain information that distinguishes signs and symptoms. For a disease to occur, there must be present both a relative weakness of the automatic vital force and the presence of a miasm. A miasm will not find presentation in the absence of a weakness of the vital force. This condition seems to infer the existence of two aspects of the organism, the miasm of some manner and the vital force, and that there is a continuum of conflict between them.

Soroush writes:
Also that the material organism without the vital force, is capable of no sensation,
no function, no self preservation. This means that without VF we have something DEAD in front of us! So putting the two statements together then if both were to be true, logic
would dictate that we NEED a miasm to be alive!

isali inserts:
#9&10 "The material orgnism without the vital force, is capable of no sensation, no function, no self preservation......"

isali wrties:
yes to your last. I interpret the need for the existence of life that there must occur a simultaneous existence of both pathogenic influences and a vital force. Pathogenisis may be exogenous or endogenous by nature. And that homeostasis is the reflection of the state of integrity of the vital force. The state of health and the reference to cure becomes the removal of the morbid signs and symtoms, #17 & 19.

Soroush writes:
I think what is correct is the reverse - without the VF there will be no miasm!

isali writes:
And no life of an organic nature, only the parts, the genetic DNA structure. I will have to review my papers, as I recall that Hn had disagreement with another german physician with whose thinking he had disagreement on this subject.

Soroush writes:
If you were to cut the onion perpendicular to the shoots at the middle of
the onion then you can see the rings....if you were to peel the onion one layer at a time you would get the same result.....I imagine this inner brown ring to be the miasm.
And in some cases we find that we are literally having to use a series of
remedies and in effect peeling one layer at a time. (So simply put, if we did not have our original miasm(s) we should be resistance to external disease influences.]

isali wites:
And homeostasis inferring a perpetual life.

Soroush writes:
Decay is an interesting occurrence. It is 'order' going to 'disorder'.
But we need our VF to maintain order in our bodies. Without it (i.e. when we
are dead) we start immediately to decay. The life sustaining functions of
our complex bodies stops and that is the END. The whole role of the VF is
to AUTOMATICALLY adapt our body to the environment that we happen to live
in. If we cannot adapt, then we suffer dis-ease and could die quickly if not
rescued or receive additional help.

When we are suffering from miasm(s), VF cannot function 100%. So it cannot
regulate the functions and we have dis-ease. So we have sensations
developing (this is the only language with which the VF can communicate) and
we have dis-ease.

isali writes:
I concur and this I interpret to be the references above from Hn.

Soroush writes:
When we suffer from miasms our VF is compromised, as if its programming has
been basically altered. Until the 'bug' is removed, then the system will not
work perfectly and will get it in to a bigger mess. But to say the system
needs the bug to work does not make sense to me and would also mean that in
trying to remove the miasms that people are suffering from to enable them to
achieve the higher purposes for which they were created, we are actually
killing them!!
Blessings & peace
Soroush

isali writes:
I read the initial paragraphs of the Organon to infer that the unprejudiced observer is able to indentify the morbid manifestation as a reflection of the weakness of the vital force; that, by principle, the right remedy is profiled and aids in the acquisition of 'cure'; and that w/o the vital force there is no function, ergo, no life.

The scientific inquiry is able to identify the presence of the element of the miasm, but it is without expression due to the absence of a vital force. A miasm remains dormant and acquires vitality through a conflicting interrelationship with the presence of an automatic vital force. And this is confirmed by the ability of allopathic scientific inquiry that is capable of identification of DNA structures in organisms without an active vital force. They may be free of morbid expressions but they are also wanting of organic life presence, and an automatic life force.

Soroush writes:
We all have to and NEED to die

isali writes:
Death is the expression of the morbidity of the chronic miasm for which the automatic vital force is no longer capable of addressing with favorable results #72.

I hope that I did justice to your thinking in my cut & paste. The perspective I define is one which there exists a duality of elements which exist in an interdependent relationship for there to be life. Death is their separation & along the path of life of the organism is a steady declining state of homeostasis which is fairly referred to as aging, or the aging process. We address this process by our attenuated ability to interpret the morbidity of varied miasmatic manifestations as susceptibility and apply through the exercise of principle remedies that acquire homeostasis. This however does not deny the process of aging and at its core is some miasm.

regards and a most pleasant weekend to all everywhere
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In a message dated 11/16/2002 5:34:57 PM Mountain Standard Time,
folco@tpg.com.au writes:
I think that we must not confuse aging with disease. Aging is a natural
process found in all life forms and is part of the cycle of life on this
planet. Without death there is no rebirth and all are bound by the physical
natural laws of the planet.

Barbara
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