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LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:08 am
by becklesfield
Dear all

I have been lurking here for a while and learning much. My question
is thus - and I hope it's not off topic - according to David Little's
wonderful article on Hahneman's discovery of the LM potency and it's
greater efficacy and safety in bringing about a cure, as I understand
it the dose should never be repeated until, and unless, it's
necessary. However, when confronted with a practioner who believes
in, or seems to be offering, a repeat dose for 10 days, how should
one go about disagreeing with this. As I see it, this would be a
mechanical use of the remedy and not supported by Hahnemans 6th
Organon writing.

Really, my trouble is having read a lot but still feeling like an
extreme beginner, and having the difficulty in contradicting
(perhaps) an experienced practioner. Opinions would be welcome.

I am particularly concerned as my cat has aggravated on previous
potencies, namely 1M, and though the LM potency sounds like it would
not cause the same problems, it still could if repeated
unnecessarily.

Thank you.
Becky

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:24 pm
by Magda Aguila
Becky,

Print David's article and take it to your vet. Stand firm. The method
David teaches is the correct way of using the LMs and the mechanical method
is not... Be nice and not combative, but stand firm. This is your animal's
life and health care and you have the right to express your concerns, which
are well founded.

As an animal practitioner I can tell you that the LM potencies work
extremely well but if used mechanically, like any potency, can cause
problems. Hahnemann never taught that remedies were to be repeated in a
mechanical way. Why should LM potencies be any different???

Magda

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2002 10:24 pm
by Jan Klüssendorf
Dear Becky and all,

The situation about repeating LM's is a very confusing one.
Indeed, David Little is a strong opponent of a kind of mechanical repetition
of a LM-doses.
This confused me very much as well because when you read Hahnemann Organ, 6
th edition, and I have checked these paragraphs also in the original German
language, one gets a quit different picture.

In the footnote to § 247 Hahnemann writes:

"But through modification of every dose in its dynamization degree, as I
herewith teach, there exists no offence, *even if the doses be repeated more
frequently*, even if the medicine be ever so highly potentized with ever so
many succussions."

In § 248 Hahemann writes:
"Thus in chronic diseases, every correctly chosen homoeopathic medicine,
even those whose action is of long duration, *may be repeated daily for
months* with ever increasing success."

and he adds to that:

"If the solution is used up (snip) it is necessary to add to the next
solution of the same medicine if still indicated with which we
continue so long as the patient experiences continued improvement....."

and he continuous:

"On the other hand, should there appear during almost *daily repetition* of
the well indicated homoeopathic remedy, towards the end of the treatment of
a chronic disease, so-called (§ 161) homoeopathic aggravations by which the
balance of the morbid symptoms seem to again increase somewhat (snip). The
doses in that case must then be reduced still further and repeated in longer
intervals and possibly stopped several days, in order to see if the
convalescence need no further medicinal aid.

and in the footnote of the same § he writes:

"There are patients of so great sensitiveness that a third or fourth glass,
similarly prepared, may be necessary. Each such prepared glass must be made
fresh *daily*

In § 272 Hahnemann writes:

"Such a globule,1 placed dry upon the tongue, is one of the smallest doses
for a moderate recent case of illness. Here but few nerves are touched by
the medicine. A similar globule, crushed with some sugar of milk and
dissolved in a good deal of water (§ 247) and stirred well before every
administration will produce a far more powerful medicine for the *use of
several days*."

So Hahnemann seems to advocate, when making use of the LM's and the medical
solution (for very sensitive people, diluted in several glasses of water) a
frequent, yes even daily repetition of the dose until new symptoms arise or
there is, after weeks/months a slight aggravation. When the aggravation
occurs very quick, then the initial dose was to large:

"It would be a certain sign that the doses were altogether too large, if
during treatment, especially in chronic disease, the first dose should bring
forth a so-called homoeopathic aggravation, that is, a marked increase of
the original morbid symptoms first discovered and in the same way every
repeated dose (§ 247) however modified somewhat by shaking before its
administration (i.e., more highly dynamized)."

Your toughs and comments to clear up this apparent confusion are very
welcome indeed.

Jan

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:59 pm
by Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
The way I read it, those are options of more frequent repetitions given
to the practitioner SHOULD THE PATIENT NEED IT....... meaning that there
should not be any automatic repetition but if it seems indicated, it can
be given even on a daily basis (or more!), according to the clinical
evaluation.

Individualisation remains the key.............

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:22 am
by Magda Aguila
Jan,

The way I have always interpreted this is to mean that if a patient were to
need repetition daily, then the LM potencies in medicinal solutions is a
safe way of doing it. But I have not read anywhere in The Organon where
Hahnemann would say that a remedy in any potency, "should" be used daily.
The needs of the individual patient are what determine the repetition of the
dose.

Magda

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:32 am
by Dr. Jeff Feinman
Hi Becky-

However, when confronted with a practioner who believes

As I've learned first hand, there's no point in "disagreeing". As a
veterinary homeopath who's been studying with David for awhile, and who
uses 95% LM potencies (in chronic cases) I agree that mechanical repetition
is a bad idea (especially in a patient who has already aggravated and is
probably hypersensitive). Your best bet is to find one of us who uses LMs
only as needed as is appropriate for all homeopathic remedies.

Good luck, feel free to contact me (off list) if I can help further.

Dr. Jeff
Dr. Jeff Feinman, CVH
Certified Veterinary Homeopath
Weston, CT, USA
Natural Pet Care info. at:
http://www.homevet.com

"The day shall come when the physician shall be prized as the preserver
rather than solely the restorer of health, and shall be consulted
respecting the means of preventing rather than solely of curing disease..."

Carroll Dunham, "The Science of Therapeutics", 1863

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:57 am
by Shannon Nelson
But, Becky,

If you were to print out some of David's specific advice, and a bit about
who he is, *perhaps* your homeopath will be willing to look into it, or at
least to stay at your elbow while you follow David's dosing instructions,
instead. Some are openminded enough to keep accepting new information; if
you like him/her, it could be worth a very diplomatic, openhearted try!
Shannon
on 9/3/02 8:31 PM, Dr. Jeff Feinman at drjeff@homevet.com wrote:

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:46 pm
by David Little
At 10:24 PM 9/3/2002 +0200, you wrote:

Hello,

You have to put all the aphorism and footnotes into context. What I say
can be back up with statement from the Organon. I also have had the
pleasure of reviewing 100s of cases from Hahnemann's Paris Casebooks. This
shows one exactly how Samuel gave his medicines and helps fill in the holes
in some of the statements found in the Organon. Yes, the LM can be repeated
more frequently than the higher potency Cs. The reason for this is that
their action is very deep but their durations are not as long. This always
on to adjust the dose and case management procedure as one goes along. This
gives one the advantage of both a high and low potency remedies, i.e deep
action and repeatability, when necessary.

The above statement says nothing about using doses mechanically. It
shows that the LMs can be repeated more frequently than the high C
potencies, when necessary. Hahnemann never gave the daily dose or alternate
day dose for days, weeks, months and years on end. This is proven by his
personal casebooks. He would interpolated periods of placebos with his
remedies or stop the medicines whenever he saw a progressively improvement
or an aggravation. He might give a remedy on every day or other day for a
certain period but it was usually followed by equally long periods of
placebo according to the reactions of the patient.
Hahnemann says "may" not must. You should link this quote with the
footnote to the previous aphorism 247, where Hahnemann first introduces the
idea of the daily dose. The comes before the above statement and qualifies it.

"The same well-chosen medicine can now be given daily, even for months,
when necessary.

Note the words "when necessary". Yes, one can MAY give the LM daily, WHEN
NECESSARY, to speed the cure. It does not says you "must" give the remedy
daily whether it is necessary or not. This note about the necessity of
using the remedy also applies to the statement directly following it in
aphorism 248.
Yes, this is true but it says nothing about giving the medicine daily
mechanically. It is only speaking about using the remedy at suitable
intervals and working up through the potencies. He often stopped the remedy
and give only milk of sugar and watchd the action of the remedy. When and
how long he gave placebo was individualized by the circumstances. When he
used olfaction he usually give a single dose and waited one week.
This dose not say daily. It says "almost". Hahnemann often give a series of
doses followed by placebos to assess the action of the remedy on the
individual. Compare with giving one dry dose and waiting 1 to 3 months this
is almost daily. He had his cases come back every 7 days at the start so he
could change the dose or give placebo quickly. Many of these cases only
received 3 doses over that week. This is quite different than putting a
person on a mechanic daily dose for weeks and months on end. This is
individualization.
This does not mean that you have to give the remedy daily. It means
that the glass is made up fresh each day it is used. Hahnemann gave almost
as much placebo as medicine. The daily dose for months on end is not found
anywhere in his casebooks.
This does not refer to the daily dose. This refers to the split-dose which
can be used over a span of several days.
Yes but not in a mechanical fashion. He suggest daily repetition, when
necessary. You must read all the aphorisms on posology together. The first
topic taken up is when a single dose of the LM potency produces a
strikingly progressive improvement in the patient’s symptoms.

"During treatment, every noticeably progressing and conspicuously
increasing improvement is a state which, as long as it persists, generally
excludes any repetition of the medicine being used because all the good
being produced by the medicine is still hastening towards completion. This
is not seldom the case in acute diseases."

Organon of the Medical Art, Hahnemann, O’Reilly 6th Edition, Aphorism 246.

When a single dose of the LM potency produces an obvious progressively
increasing amelioration the remedy should not be repeated! This is because
the simillimum is already hastening toward cure at the fastest rate
possible. Whenever this happened Hahnemann would stop the remedy and give
placebo. Give this personal a daily dose and you will ruin the case. Then
Hahnemann writes:

"On the other hand, with somewhat chronic diseases, there are, to be
sure, some cases that have slow, continuous improvement based on one dose
of an aptly selected homeopathic medicine (taking 40, 50, 60, 100 days to
complete the cure, depending on the nature of the medicine) but this is
very seldom the case. Also, it must be a matter of great importance, to the
physician as well as to the patient, to foreshorten this period, if
possible, by half, three-quarters, indeed even more, in order that a far
more rapid cure might be attained."

This says that in SLOW moving cases that would take 40, 50 or 100 days
to complete the cure we should speed the cure! The first part is about the
STRIKINGLY PROGRESSIVE AMELIORATION. This says DON'T repeat the dose. The
second part is about SLOW improvements. The repeating of the dose to speed
the cure is for those cases in which it is NECESSARY. The following
directions are for those slowly improving cases.

"The most recent and frequently repeated experiences have taught me
that such rapid cures can be favorably carried out under the following
conditions:

1. Select with all circumspection, the aptly homeopathic medicine.

[the first condition is that the remedy is simillimum. If you repeat the
wrong remedy mechanically it can cause serious problems. How do you know
you have the right remedy if you give daily for months without testing it
cautious first???]'

2. Use a highly potentized [fifty-millesimal] dose, dissolved in water.

[the second condition is to use the medicinal solution.]

3. Administer a properly small dose of this to the patient.

[using the smallest rather than largest dose is important to prevent
aggravations]

4. Give a dose of the solution at intervals that experience has shown to be
the most distinctly appropriate for the best possible acceleration of the
treatment.

[This says one must use their experience to figure out how often to give
the remedy. It does not say give it mechanically daily, etc]

5. Prior to each administration of a dose of the solution, alter the degree
of potency of the dose. It is very important that the degree of potency of
each dose deviate somewhat from the previous and subsequent ones. This is
so that the life principle, whose tunement is to be altered to that of the
similar medicinal disease, may never feel itself agitated to adverse
counter-actions and enraged, as happens when repeated, unmodified doses are
given, especially when such doses are rapidly repeated one after another.

[The remedy must be sucussed to change the potency so that patient never
receives the exact same potency twice in succession.]

Organon: of the Medical Art, Hahnemann, O’Reilly 6th Edition, Aphorism 246.

All the statements about the daily and alternate dose are related to
SLOW MOVING CASES not fast moving cases. These remedy also should be
stopped when ever their is a strikingly progressive improvement, new
symptoms or an aggravation. One has to take what is said in aphorism 246,
which gives the first instruction on posology together with the footnote to
247 and the statement in 248

1. a. 246 says anytime a remedy causes a progressive amelioration [fast
improvement] the medicine should be stopped. When there is a striking
improvement the single dose or during the repetition of the dose the remedy
should be stopped because the cure is already taking place. This is not a
mechanical dose. This is responding to circumstances. Hahnemann gave
placebo when this happened

b. Then Hahnemann says in cases of SLOW amelioration one may repeat the
remedy at suitable intervals to speed the cure when the five conditions are
met. This includes. first and foremost, *having the correct remedy* and
then adjusting the dose properly.

2. In the footnote to aphorism 247 Hahnemann introduces the idea of the
daily dose for the first time but qualifies the statement with the words;
*when necessary*. This means when the daily dose is not necessary it should
not be used. He makes this clear in part one of 246 as well. No bothers to
read these two essential statements.

3. The statements in aphorism 247 as well as those that follow are related
only to slow moving cases. He is teaching how speed the cure in those cases
where it could 50 to 100 days on a single dose to show marked improvement.
If a dose or a short series of doses causes a strikingly progressive
improvement or a sign of aggravation his instructions are to *stop the
medicine*. Doctor Croserio wrote in his eyewitness account of the master in
Paris that he always stopped his LM doses when he saw good remedial action,
gave placebo and waited and watched. This point does not come through in
the Organon very well but it is obvious if you read 246 carefully and
Hahnemann's person casebooks.
Yes, the dose can be repeated to speed the cure in slow ameliorating
cases at suitable intervals in accordance with experience (aph 246). On
must put all these statement together in the order they are presented to
understand the pattern. The most important aspect that is overlooked it
what Hahnemann really says in part one and two of aphorism 246 and the
footnote to aphorism 247. These statement condition everything that is said
about the daily and alternated day dose which follows.

The mechanical repetition of the LM potency daily for days, weeks and
months on end has caused some very bad aggravations. In come circles they
are saying the LM aggravates worse than the Cs given by the old method.
Some are saying the worse aggravations they have ever seen were caused by
the LMs! Why??? Because they were given mechanically in the daily dose when
it was NOT NEEDED to speed the cure. I constantly receive letters from
people aggravated by homoeopathy. Some are because to large of dose of
pills of the dry C potencies. Others were caused by repeating the LM
potencies mechanically. None of this has to happen if one individualized
the posology and is careful. That is what Hahnemann did. Some patients were
on placebos for weeks!

I have had the advantage or reading Hahnemann's Paris Casebooks and
studying how he really gave his medicines as well as reading eyewitness
accounts and personal letters. These source helps one understand the fine
print in the Organon. Some of the smallest statement are the most
important. The most important statement about giving the dose is the two
words" WHEN NECESSARY! If one gives a series of rapid doses or continues
them when they are not necessary they cause aggravations and slow down the
cure. Hahnemann often interpolated a series of placebo between a series of
doses so he could observe the actions of his remedy. He did not give the
daily or alternative day dose mechanically for days, weeks, months and
years. That is a complete myth.
When I first read the Organon I also did not see the fine print in
aphorism 246 and the footnote to 247, etc.. For this reason, I also
aggravated too many cases in the beginning but I used this experience to
slow down my repetitions and use my *experience (246)* to guide me in
individualizing the remedy schedules. When I got the microfiches of the
Hahnemann Paris Casebooks the first thing I noticed how much placebo
Hahnemann used to control the deep actions of the LM potency. If the case
was moving fast he would give placebo, if there was a confusion about the
symptoms he gave placebo, if there was an aggravation he gave placebo. He
never let the patient repeat a remedy for more than 7 to 14 days (sometimes
less) without seeing them. He never let them take a daily dose for weeks
and months without checking. He often stopped the remedy, gave placebo, and
then waited and watched. The is not mechanical repetition of the LM
potency. Every case was individualized.

This is the outcome of 18 years of research in the LM potency. It did
not come easy and I made mistakes. I am trying to use my own mistakes and
how I over came them to benefit others. In the early years I had little to
go on. Studying the Hahnemann's casebooks, personal, letters and eyewitness
account of his colleagues has help me to understand the fine print in the
Organon. These subtle points are often missed when reading the text.

Sincerely, David Little
Samuel Hahnemann

Visit our website on Hahnemannian Homoeopathy and Cyberspace Homoeopathic
Academy at
http://www.simillimum.com
David Little © 2000

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:47 pm
by David Little
At 09:01 PM 9/2/2002 +0000, you wrote:

Dear Becky,

The use of the LM and C potency in medicinal solution greatly expands
the therapeutic horizons of homoeopathy. Finding the remedy and potency is
only 1/2 the problem. The other 1/2 is applying the remedy correctly
according to individual and the circumstances. There is no one method that
suits all patients all the time. For this reason, we need to individualize
the prescription. Some cases might need the daily dose but other definitely
do not. If the vet gives every patient a daily dose for 10 days then I
would call this a mechanical method that should be questioned.

Hahnemann's Paris Casebook show that he individualized his doses and
brought his patient back very frequently so that he could adjust the dose
or stop it and give placebo. So it is a question of seeing what the
individual really needs. Maybe your cat does need the daily dose and maybe
it doesn't. How can one tell in advance that your cat needs the daily dose
for 10 days? Maybe - maybe not.
One can only suggest information offer more options. There are some very
good vets on this list who might be able to help with their experience.
Yes, the LMs can certainly aggravated if the patient is over medicated.
To think the LMs can not aggravate is very foolish. Normally, however, when
they are used carefully they do not. If they do such aggravations are short
and easy to manage but if the remedy is given daily for days, weeks and
months when not necessary they can cause problems.

Sincerely, David
---------------
"It is the life-force which cures diseases because a dead man needs no more
medicines."

Samuel Hahnemann

Visit our website on Hahnemannian Homoeopathy and Cyberspace Homoeopathic
Academy at
http://www.simillimum.com
David Little © 2000

Re: LM Potencies and vet visit

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:41 pm
by Jan Klüssendorf
Dear David,

No point in arguing with someone who not only has such a deep knowledge of
our homeopathic paradigm, but on top of that has also a tremendous clinical
experience (with LM's). So I fully take yours (an others) word for the fact
that a mechanical repetition of a LM's is not a clever thing to do.
Amen to that.
My only point was merely that, on the base of the 6th edition of the
Organon, one could get very easy confused about this repetition matter of a
dose.
If only Hahnemann would have added in one of the quoted text an other
subordinate clause - of which he was such a frequent user - saying
something like "but be careful when administrating a daily dose, because
this can cause ... etc...." this confusion wouldn't have occurred.
But anyhow: relying on solid experience should be our first rule and all
those experiences about LM indeed point in the same direction: daily
repetition of LM's can be harmful so don't use it mechanically.
Amen to that.

Jan