Minutus

Dear ALL of you,

I am a member of an animal no-vaccination list. One of its members is a Veterinarian who has produced a West Nile Virus Nosode... it's listing/description is approximately halfway down the webpage listed below... also listed are Lyme Disease Nosode as well as Heartworm *Preventative* Nosode (for the animals - this also a Mosquito carried ailment of the Worm nature)... Could you please offer me some of your opinions on the above mentioned Nosodes.

http://www.holisticvetpetcare.com/vitamins.htm

Respectfully yours,

Patti Mount, President IANTD World Headquarters
Patti@iantd.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Patti,

As a veterinarian, I do not use any such nosodes in a prophylactic manner. I
don't believe there is any evidence that they are effective and according to
homeopathic principles, they shouldn't be. (Perhaps the only time such a
nosode could be employed is after exposure in an acute epidemic situation
which is not the case with heartworms before the epidemic remedy has been
discovered.) In order to have a curative effect, a remedy must be similar to
the patient's disease. Why should we expect every dog to have a disease
similar to heart worm nosode? Or a person to WNV? , etc. Of course, if the
nosode is not the right remedy for that individual and they are sensitive
to it, the end result could be very negative for the patient. IMO, most
practitioners who use nosodes as "vaccinations" routinely, have not truly
purged themselves of that aspect of conventional medicine having to do with
germs/worms being the primary cause of disease. I believe the parasite issue
is the most obvious evidence that medicine is not a scientific system.
Clearly, over the millenia of their existance, the natural selection process
would have eliminated from the heartworm population those that are most
likely to kill or seriously damage the host animal. At the same time, those
hosts most capable of surviving being parasitized would also have become the
dominant "constitutions". As a result, there should be no Heartworm
"disease" in healthy animals. It seems clear that the balance has changed,
not by the heartworms becoming more damaging but by the dogs not holding up
their side of the equation as a result of vaccinations, drugs, etc, etc. The
only hope of restoration is to strengthen the dogs at their core. Nosode
"vaccinations" will not accomplish this.

be well

russell swift, dvm

A great article on Homeoprophylaxis vs. Homeopathic 'vaccination' can be
found here:

http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopath ... footnotesa

Sara

petsfriend wrote:

Hi all,

Russell is right-on imho.

Also, this
http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_pro/wt10.html
is a GREAT article.

Will Taylor is an excellent teacher; there were many discussions on these
topics in years past on the Lyghtforce list.

The idea of conferring long term immunity in the sense of "vaccination" has
(as Russell notes) no reasonable basis in homeopathic philosophy, and has
been a trial balloon idea which has repeatedly been punctured.

When we hear "physician, heal thyself" - we should think of how homeopathy
takes into careful consideration mental symptoms, such as fixed delusions.

Many, many homeopaths seem to have fallen prey to the persistent fixed
delusion that germs cause disease.

If you are having difficulty healing yourself of this fixed delusion, you
might find some surcease in contemplation of the concept of pleomorphism,
which in simple form states that the "pathogenic" organisms are merely
different forms of ubiquitous single-celled symbionts gone feral .. the
appearance of so-called "pathogenic" organisms is entirely dependent on
appropriate conditions for their "morhpism" - in other words .. one could
say a deranged state .. a state of "susceptibility to dis-ease" .. is a
necessary PRE-cursor to the situation in which the so-called "pathogenic"
lifeforms are thought to adapt (as phages.)

food for thought.
regards,
Dave Hartley
www.Mr-Notebook.com
www.localcomputermart.com/dave
Santa Cruz, CA (831)423-4284

Thank you Russell and Dave for your feed-back... it helped me to offer better wording & knowledge for the group I originally e-mailed about... please know that I do not use Nosodes in that manner IF you possibly thought that I do, I do NOT... I was hoping to offer this group info on the West Nile Nosode as well as obtain some feed-back for better wording of my own basis of knowledge.

Respectfully yours,

Patti Mount, President IANTD World Headquarters
Patti@iantd.com http://www.iantd.com
Shogun's Webpage http://www.iantd.com/Shogun/Puppy.html
Ariel's Webpage & Pedigree http://www.iantd.com/Ariel/Ariel.htm

Can I present my take on this one............

If we are completely healthy, we will not catch any of the infectious
diseases, that is what I read in the previous posts. That is unless the
infection is so massive as to overwhelm our defences. Right. How many of
us are in this state of health today?

Once the condition is established, we will use the symptoms and signs to
find the proper remedy, and voila. Correct. But why should I put myself
at risk, why should I suffer if I can avoid it? Isn't prevention better
than cure?

If I can use homeoprophylaxis, or homeopathic immunisation, to avoid
getting into a state of disease, why not? Why should I wait until a few
of my neighbours become sick so I can find the Genus Epidemicus and use
it as prophylaxis?

Because it is not Hahnemanian? I have a short answer and a longer answer
to that:

The short answer: so what?

The long answer: H wrote that a stronger artificial disease (the
simillimum) displaces the original disease that will then disappear, the
artificial disease being then eliminated by the vital force. That was
written with the language and the understanding of his time. Today we
could say that taking the Nosode of the disease before suffering from
the disease imprints the information relative to the disease into the
immune system, which becomes ready to react homeopathically when exposed
to the real disease. Sounds familiar? that is vaccination, but when done
with a potentised substance, it is both effective and innocuous, and was
actually advocated by early homeopaths after seeing the complications of
smallpox conventional vaccination.
So to me, and many others, this technique is perfectly in line with the
philosophy of homeopathy.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

Can I present my take on this one............

The long answer: H wrote that a stronger artificial disease (the
simillimum) displaces the original disease that will then disappear, the
artificial disease being then eliminated by the vital force. That was
written with the language and the understanding of his time. Today we
could say that taking the Nosode of the disease before suffering from
the disease imprints the information relative to the disease into the
immune system, which becomes ready to react homeopathically when exposed
to the real disease. Sounds familiar? that is vaccination, but when done
with a potentised substance, it is both effective and innocuous, and was
actually advocated by early homeopaths after seeing the complications of
smallpox conventional vaccination.
So to me, and many others, this technique is perfectly in line with the
philosophy of homeopathy.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.

Thank you for your input Dr Rozencwajg... The problem that we have seen with the Dogs & Puppies receiving the *appropriate* Nosodes is that many of them are having Negative Reactions to these Nosodes - some get very ill with what looks exactly like the *disease* the Nosode is manufactured from & go on to suffer long-term while others *just* die...

and thus the dilemma and the reason for my bringing this information into this forum of knowledgeable homeopaths. So I ask you now Dr that I have *shown* you all in a previous e-mail that a WNV Nosode is available then WHY is there so much reportization being offered on this List regarding the Sx of this virus? I believe for good reason, no?

Respectfully yours,

Patti Mount, President IANTD World Headquarters
Patti@iantd.com http://www.iantd.com
Shogun's Webpage http://www.iantd.com/Shogun/Puppy.html
Ariel's Webpage & Pedigree http://www.iantd.com/Ariel/Ariel.htm
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Dr. R and Patti,

I think there are two intertwined issues here: Prophylaxes in general
(usually, I thought, *not* using a nosode), and the other being use of
"nosodes" in a case to which they do not necessarily apply (i.e. "the miasm
is not active"). I'm not sure if this is an important distinction for this
discussion, but maybe...

Prophylaxis has not (I think) usually been done thru use of any of the major
nosodes; I didn't think it was usually done with potentized disease product
either, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. Patti, when you talk of "nosodes"
causing problems, do you mean e.g. Tub, Med, Psor and Carc (or ??), or do
you mean e.g. potentized distemper virus, or etc.?

I was taught *emphatically* that if you give a (major) nosode to a person in
whom the miasm is not already active, you can "rouse the miasm" and cause
them significant, long-lasting trouble; it sounds like this is what happened
to the puppies you describe. Perhaps any potentized disease product can do
the same, or perhaps these pups were given Tub, Med, or etc.?

I thought the usual approach to prophylaxes was to give the (plant, animal
or mineral?) remedy most closely associated with the illness, e.g. Bell for
strep, etc.?

Shannon

on 8/13/02 6:05 AM, Patti Mount at Patti@iantd.com wrote:

Hi Shannon,

The pups are not given allopathic *puppy* vaccinations - instead people are giving the Nosodes of Distemper, Rabies, Parvo, Heartworm, etc. and many of these pups are either seriously ill with aftermath ongoing problems or they die. I hope that this clarifies your question that it is not Med., Tub. Psor., etc.

BTW many of these people are NOT trained in Homeopathy... they just do not want to vaccinate or give Heartworm preventative and are able to purchase whatever Nosode they want & administer it & then they are clueless when the dogs have ensuing problems & come hysterical for our assistance afterwards... on the other hand there is a high % that are using Homeopathic Consultants (not Vet) or Homeo Vets who are prescribing these Nosodes for the pups in lieu of vaccinating with injectables...

Respectfully yours,

Patti Mount, President IANTD World Headquarters
Patti@iantd.com http://www.iantd.com
Shogun's Webpage http://www.iantd.com/Shogun/Puppy.html
Ariel's Webpage & Pedigree http://www.iantd.com/Ariel/Ariel.htm

. Perhaps any potentized disease product can do
the same, or perhaps these pups were given Tub, Med, or etc.?

I thought the usual approach to prophylaxes was to give the (plant, animal
or mineral?) remedy most closely associated with the illness, e.g. Bell for
strep, etc.?

Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The long answer: H wrote that a stronger artificial
disease (the
disappear, the
force. ...............
line with the

(what follows is, of course, my view only)
and sorry - it got longer )

Stated suchly it is indeed in line with the philosophy (or
better, the natural principles that homoeopathy is based
upon) -
... so long as one is actually exposed to the
disease/epidemic I agree with Dr. Roz's statement -

Belladonna used to prevent falling ill with scarlet fever
was used *in* the actual epidemic, and locally in the region
of it where people were actually exposed to the epidemic -
so we could possibly infer a dynamic interaction between the
disease-wesen and the vital force to be present -
Hahnemann did not seem to send out information to all across
the country to take a dose of Belladonna, *in case* the
epidemic *might* arrive there some time in the future -
(then, of course, we may simply not have any records of him
doing so ... ! )

Just as with the anthrax--scare -
if there is an epidemic of WNF in southern states, should
northern arctic folk take the nosode now ?! if yes, what
about south americans, if not ... where and why would be
the demarcation line ?!
and why only that disease, why not all the others that
linger around everywhere ...?!

If the principle is indeed 'like cures likes', then the
artificial disease needs to have some similar natural
disease to be present for that principle to come into
effect - otherwise it is only ...:
we have seen with the Dogs & Puppies receiving the
*appropriate* Nosodes is that many of them are having
Negative Reactions to these Nosodes - some get very ill with
what looks exactly like the *disease* the Nosode is
manufactured from & go on to suffer long-term while others
*just* die...

After all, that is what homoeopaths do to get a proving,
give a remedy to someone who does not have that disease (or
ideally any disease) and see what symptoms come up -

information into this forum of knowledgeable homeopaths. So
I ask you now Dr that I have *shown* you all in a previous
e-mail that a WNV Nosode is available then WHY is there so
much reportization being offered on this List regarding the
Sx of this virus? I believe for good reason, no?

The reason, as I see it, is that the principle of cure still
seems to be according to 'like cures likes' -
and that is *Nature's* principle, not Hahnemann's
Principle, or a Principle that we dogmatically or liberally
can choose to follow or not to follow -

Belladonna is not the nosode for Scarlet fever -
and yet still can work preventively for that disease -
When Lachesis cures a nasty Staph-infection where the nosode
Staphylococcinum has not, what is the principle at work ??!!

I remember using many nosodes on this concept of
'give the nosode of the disease to treat that disease'
and a few times on the preventive concept, too -
'give the nosode of the disease to be prevented'

(medically diagnosed! : )
pneumococcinum to treat pneumonia
influenzinum for the flu (not just common cold)
cystitis nosode for bladder infections
ear-pus nosode for ear-infections
asthma nosode for asthma (actue and/or chronic)
pertussinum for whooping cough
candida albicans for candida
streptococcinum for strep-throat
staphilococcinum for staph-infection
the vacc nosodes for vaccination reactions (not always
simple to discern reliably, though)
giardia for giardia

if I were to search through the records, the list would be
longer -

for some reason or other I have yet to see this approach
yield effective results -

Where the nosode was used to prevent the disease it is less
obvious, as one can never know whether the person would or
would not have gotten the disease anyway -

For sure, though, in many cases the nosode given
preventatively did not prevent it at all, either -

So, there remain a number of questions in my mind :

for one:
- I could have maybe used an inappropriate dosage/potency
and that was the real reason why I saw the nosode approach
not working - this would be my fault, not the approach !
- there could have been various factors in those given cases
that I overlooked and that were the real reasons why the
nosode approach did not work - this would be my fault, not
the approach !
- maybe all those medical diagnoses were wrong and I ended
up using a nosode that was not the person's actual disease -

two:
- if the natural principle is 'like cures likes', and the
nosode has its own materia medica of proving-symptoms that
it can produce, and if that nosode does not actually cover
*all*, *truly all*!!! potentially possible symptoms that the
actual natural disease can produce in the multitude of
different people, then there will always be cases that the
nosode would not be able to cure -
So far, the materia medica of, say, tuberculinum, or
pertussinum,
or staphylococcinum, etc,. etc ... do not look like a
complete compendium of all the materia medicas taken
together of all the individual remedies that are confirmed
to have cured cases of said disease -
(assumed that this is not simply because of yet lack of
complete provings, as otherwise we can just as well say that
if we prove *any* remedy long enough, we will find that all
remedies cover all diseases ... )

So we are left with the situation that there are cases where
the nosode simply does not cover the actual symptoms a
person has, in spite of it being the same disease-*name* -

And to simply state that the nosode 'is the true
disease-remedy', or 'the nosode represents the original
disease', or 'the nosode is the ultimate similimum', or 'one
needs to treat with the nosode to eradicate the disease on
the deepest level' etc ... is interesting thought, but as
of yet remains hypothetical, and sometimes wishful,
speculation -

Thus, it is the elaborate repertorization, that we still
need to find which remedy, then, actually will obey
'*Nature's* Principle of like cures likes' in the given
individual case !

Now, having said all this, the other questions that remain
are,
- how come then, that many do see beneficial results from
use of the 'same-disease-nosode'- approach ... ? - assumed,
for now, their observations are truly complete and
liable -
- and if that is so, how can we determine when and when not
this approach may be appropriate ?
What are the principles in nature that would make this
approach
workable ?!
What is missing from the understanding so far, in order for
us to use this approach not haphazardly, but with
understanding and predicatability ?!

- and if it is appropriate, how do we ensure that people do
not start flocking out to begin taking nosodes right and
left - after all, there are many diseases that some people
would much wish to prevent .... !so why limit to lymes, WNF,
anthrax ... !!
I can see already the commercials and advertising by the
business-minded 'homoeopathic'-bandwagon companies ... :
combinations of twenty, thirty nosodes all in one pellet
preventive
of tuberculosis, gonorrhoea, cancer, anthrax, lymes, west
nile fever, dengue fever, ebola, meningitis, the flu,
candida, .........

and from there it will be no long stretch to find on the
shelves
the 'world's best combination for prevention of
depression, migraines, ear-infections, asthma, allergies,
and even alzheimers, wrinkles, menopause, and constipation -
'

Uuhhhh ......... did you just hear that noise .... ?!?!?
... like bed-sheets rustling ....
...
I think it's the old masters .... all turning in their
graves ...

best
peter quenter