Minutus

Last night BBC’s Horizon programme was on Ebola.

It spoke to people who had survived it. These are the symptoms they mentioned:

Sore throat

Fever

Coldness (one patient said he had worn as much clothing as possible in bed with lots of bed covers and still felt cold.)

Diarrhoea (bloody)

Nausea

Vomiting (bloody)

Not talking

Too weak to walk

Feared death

Not urinating

Legs swelling

Abdomen distended

Body swelling

(And we know from other cases that there is bloody discharge from nose, eyes and ears too)

I think Crot-h presents a close picture.

As colleagues are programmed to go Ghana and The Gambia, your thoughts please.

Soroush

This is the most visible and discernable SUBset of the actual symptoms.

We are in the 21st century now. We are aware for example, that blood vessels have no nerves to give us symptoms. SO that raises the age old question: If nobody hears the tree fall in the forest, is it still standing?
In the 21st century are we going to still pretend that visible symptoms are the only ones that exist? Or are we going to wake u0p and acknowledge that in the PAST, the visiblke symptoms were the only cluens but now we have and should use ALL the symptoms we can know about, and not only that, but we need to allocate relevance and proprtion to each symptom.

We need to use these visible ones too - AND the invisible ones.
The invisible ones are not invisible in this century - they are viewable via autopsy, lab tests and microscopy.

In a killer disease like Ebola, the visible symptoms are like the tip of the iceberg. One can see them but the majporty of the case is below that surface. It is the invisible items in ebola that kill. There is no nerve system to tell the victim that their blood vessels have too little fluid to allow circulation.

Is that not the silent tree in the forest we are pretending is still standing?
WHY?
Becasue it covers the visible minority of the symptoms?
What happeend to the symptoms that cause death in Ebola?
(They are not included in the list that victims could voice.)
I am VERY cocerned about the superficial application of homeopathy to superficial symptoms to the exclusion of deadly ones that give the sufferer no signs to discuss but which are the true cause of death.

For example, the following Ebola symptodm are NOT covered by Crot-h:
MIND - DELIRIUM - loss of fluids, from
MIND - CONFUSION of mind - intoxicated - as after being
MIND - IRRITABILITY - weakness - with
MIND - MEMORY - weakness of memory - loss of vital fluids; from
HEAD - FLUIDS agg.; loss of vital
THROAT - PHARYNX; complaints of
STOMACH - PAIN - clawing pain
STOMACH - PAIN - fluids; after loss of
KIDNEYS - COMPLAINTS of kidneys
KIDNEYS - COMPLAINTS of kidneys - accompanied by - hypotension
EXPECTORATION - BLOODY - fluids; after loss of vital
CHEST - INFLAMMATION - Lungs - weakness, from loss of fluids
CHEST - LOSS of fluids agg.
FEVER - CHILL; with
GENERALS - FAINTNESS - fluids; after loss of
GENERALS - HEMORRHAGE - Mucous membranes, from
GENERALS - WEAKNESS - acute diseases - during
GENERALS - WEAKNESS - loss of fluids; from

In fact the medical profession universally is agreed that in Ebola the cause of death is loss of fluid from the bloodstream - the fluid is sent out of the blood vesels leaving no liquid to circulate, only a lot of blood cells that coagulate. It is called DIC for Disseminated Intravascular Coagulopathy. This fluid loss is the true problem in Ebola and the true cause of death.
The hemorrhage seen, is a side effect, and is minor and not life threatening.

Crot-h may help in EARLY stages but is not a good overall selection.
A good overall selection will at least cover the illness's usual mode of causing death.

I already posted here some time ago, (2 Aug 2014) a full discussion and explanation of why I consider China a number one option in Ebola. So far I have not heard anything that points to China not being suited to the task. China does cover all the visible symptoms as well as the invisible ones that cause death. Crot-h is 17th on my list of options. Even Lach looks bettter, and handles internal dehydration, mucus membrane bleeding, dehydration via the colon's loss of water for example. So my main concern about Ebola is its DIC tendency and therefore needing a DIC-suited remedy.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

I have no idea which remedy (or remedies) are needed for Ebola so I am not arguing against China. (According to symptoms I have heard, even Opium is a strong contender for one phase of the disease - so don't want to become too fixed at the moment.)

My comments are in relation to how we perceive symptoms. Your position seems to be that they are end-stage symptoms of the disease itself and NOT signs of how the body is trying to overcome the assault.

When viewed from a homeopathic perspective, it is vital that these symptoms - especially the intense, characteristic, and individualising ones - are heeded if we truly wish to assist the body in what it is trying to do - and as only it can heal, we would be unwise to ignore them in preference for blood profiles and laboratory reports.

Again, China may very well be a good remedy - I am just commenting on process.

As an aside, I have also heard in reports from those who have dealt with Ebola that the haemorrages, while certainly a factor, have not been as pronounced as the media has portrayed in the past.

Kind regards, fran.
In my opinion, to just

???????

The body HAS those symptoms - it is not what the disease is doing, which is another category of information altogether and irrelevant.
WHat the disease is doing in EBola, is using a transport mechanism for getting nutrients into the blood vessels, to get the virus into there, and to use that same "hole" to leak the fluid out of there - and it also leaks fluid out of gut walls especially the colon, to further dehydrate the body. THOSE are what the disease does. It is not relevant.

The RESULT is relevant - that the blood vessels are minus liquid. THAT is a bona fide symptom.
That the virus causes it, or how it causes it, is not relevant, but it IS relevant that this IS a symptom, however caused.
It is not about what the body is doing to overcome the assault, but it matters what condition/symptom has been caused to occur and needs a remedy with similar action to undo....Law of "similars"
If the remedy causes blood vessel dehydration and the symptom present is blood vessel dehydration then we have a symptom and a rubric which match or are "similar" and that is valid.

Whether the body tries to fight back with lymphocytes or antibodies or something else is not relevant. The SYMPTOM of dry blood vessels matters. The body will do whatever it can to overcome dry blood vessels. It needs help. Same as dry skin matters - from a homeopathic perspective - and needs help from a remedy with a dry skin rubric.
We are looking for a similar remedy to that symptom (plus the others) so as to invoke the Law of Similars.
Blood vessel dryness is indeed intense, characteristic and individualizing to Ebola.
That the weird feature of dry blood vessels is common to other Ebola sufferers does not make it disqualified as an individualizing symptom for a current case. Dry blood vessels is a VERY peculiar symptom indeed.
exactly, and that is why the weird dry blood vessels are so critical a symptom.
You will not find dry blood vessels in any lab report or blood profile. What test would you use?
It is a symptom seen at autopsy, and by doctors with above average intelligence, in live victims.
This is for example why it is so very difficut to get an IV needle ito the vein of an Ebola patient. The veins have collapsed.

I cannot agree that a collapsed vein and entire vascular system collapsed, is not a characteristic symptom!
It is a life-critical symptom.
Nor is it correct to automatically exclude symptoms that are found by a lab test. For example yellowness is a rubric in the repertory used to cover the symptom of jaundice or yellow skin. But you can test for bilirubin in a blood test and see jaundice in a black cat with black skin that way. Are you suggesting the black cat with jaundice must be assumed to NOT have it because you cannot see it in the black skin?
Much like you cannot see the collapsed blood vessels in Ebola?
What kind of homeopathy science would that be? Only non-black cats may have a remedy that covers yellow skin, regardless what is actually the matter? And only non-collapsed blood vessel remedies may be used in Ebola becsuae you need an autopsy or an attempt to insert a IV needle, to detect it?

It is not relevant how we get our symptom information; it is relevant that we DO get it and use it well to find the remedy that handles those characteristics - ie the remedy whose proving causes those symptoms.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I couldn't agree more Irene - but dry blood vessels do not happen in isolation. The patient experiences and presents many symptoms in the lead-up and as a response that event and these should not be trivialised or ignored. On re-reading your first post I can see you are not saying they should be.

Dry blood vessels are characteristic and show the class of remedies we should be looking at but we still need symptoms that are unique to identify the most likely remedies.

The following info, passed on to me, was provided by an epidemiologist who monitored cases during earlier epidemics. Whether the symptoms, especially the unusual and interesting desquamation, are the same for some sufferers in the current epidemics, I don't know:

It begins very very suddenly with extremely high fever (104º to 106º) and a severely stunned state of mind. Those who do recover never remember what happened. Eyes are very bloodshot right away and end up with bloody extravasation after days. Weakness is sudden. They can only lie down in bed, barely lifting their head. They lie still, not particularly restless. Usually they do not want even a sheet to cover them. They may have some vomiting and diarrhea, but not such a striking feature as in web descriptions. They clearly have very severe dehydration which responds well to IV fluids, yet there is no swelling in very skinny people. No palpable organomegaly. The hemorrhagic aspect might happen in a late stage but is not so strong as the descriptions that have captured the imaginations of people. It appears the dehydration is just intracellular breakdown and extravasation into tissues. The most striking symptom of all is severe desquamation of skin and even nails, right from the start. He could take a hand and pull off the skin and nails of an arm, like pulling off a cast.

.......

Fran.

The post of mine to read please, is the one that detailed my reasons fro selectine Ebola, sent to this group on 2 Aug, it is many pages long and lists about two pages of symptoms gleaned from all sources including patients, doctors and research, plus experience in other DIC diseases that is my personal knowledge.

You are incorrect in saying there are symptoms in the "lead-up" to the dry vessles. It is the dry vessels that are the START of ebola, and the CAUSE of the other symptoms that follow later as a result of the dy blood vessels. The fluid compartment changes ARE the start of Ebola and the end of it - they are the essence of Ebola.
Leaks of vessels is how Ebola virus enters the patient!
If you would read my article.......that would be fair instead of criticising my views well presented in a multipage article you clearly have not read. I referred to it rather than duplicate it, it is avalable in the list archives.
No it begins with virus entering the blood vessel through holes in the walls through which fluid starts to leak out of the vessels.

THEN it travels all over te body in the blood stream, using it as a transport system, and the body responds to THAT with a fever. when it gets to the brain.
That follows due to the leaks of fluid in the brain.
Becasue the memory areas of the brain are nable to function due to fluid leaked out of blood vessels.
The vessles there leak red cells as well as fluid, due ot the nature of eye capillaries.
Blood fluid with some red cells also leaks out of every other area with fine capillaries.
Becasue there is a threshhold at whoch loss of fluid causes weakness. TIll then the body's compensating system is coping, but as soon as the electrolytes and fluid reach a critical point, the miuscle supply of electrolytes gets cut off by the body in order toc onserve strength for the body's major organs. Simultaneousl the liver and kidneys reach a damage point fro mviral damage to make themn stop working, which means no toxins are being processed out., Toxicity of muslces causes muscle paralysis, especially when electrolytes are in short supply. Again all these features are side effects of fluid position changes within the body so that there is too little in the blood and too much elsewhere.
That is true but comes after the stage of restlessness.
Becasue the actual blood vessels are minus liquid. Without IV fluid - and sun-Q fluid will not do - they wll die fast.
ALL of this is to do with the blood vessels losing fluid.
There is, in the brain.
Organomegaly would be an abnormal finding after fluid loss from the blood vessels.
Instead, Ebola has what you expect with vascular fluid loss as the liver for example - and kidney - is very rich with vessels of a very fine size. It will fail from lack of blood supply and that is exactly what happens in Ebola. Both liver and kidneys fail.
The leaks from blood vessels are actualy step one and cause all the other smptoms, except the fever which is an immune system response to virus presence in the brain.
You have to see it in context. The majority of body fluid is NOT in the blood vessels, so if you leak out what is in the blood vessels it is not such a huge volume. But here the blood is not leaking as whole blood, only the plamsa is leaking, witih a few red cells in areas where capillaries are tiny, like lungs, food absorption surfaces, eyes, liver, kidney, brain - anywhere there is igh exchange between many small vessels and tissues.
Iniside the blood vessels are all the white cells and fibrin, and more red cells. but no liquid - no plasma - to float them in, so the blood is forced to coagulate - what little there is left.
No.
Research has proved that it is caused directly by the virus as it enters the bloodstream.
It is all in my article....the mechanism details by which holes are made in the vessel walls - the mechanism of virus entry intot he bloodstream, its nukber one objective - and the same holes for leaking out fluid.

There is no intracellar breakdown as the origin of the fluid misplacement but there is extravasation of blood plasma into the tissues from the blood vessels.
I did not know of this symptom till now. That is more than ordinary dsesquamation you describe; those are symptoms of pemphigus, for which China is a good remedy......
though my most recent pemphigus case was a Lachesis one - it did not have the other features of China, as Ebola does, and pemphigus was the main issue where in Ebola, loss of (vital) fluid (in the bloodstream) is the main issue.

I did not know about this symptom, despite using multiple sources of information - glad to have more added - so it looks good that China (my top selection for Ebola) also is a pemphigus remedy, there are 53 remedies that are known to help pemphigus symptoms, per Radar-10. It sounds like a good candidate for a peculiar symptom.

Someone on another list likes Phos for Ebola and I can see why, it is my 2nd choice, but several issues are not covered, so not a happy 2nd choce, but it also covers pemphigus symptoms.
Also popular with others is Crot-h, I'd use Lach before Crot-h, at least it has delirium from loss of fluids, liver atrophy, hemorrage from mucus membranes, and hypotention (due to no fluid in the vessels), all lacking
in Crot-h. Both these remedies lack several features within the more than 40 selected on symptoms (see my article) - and which are all covered by Chin.

I am looking for the remedy that would cover the symptoms seen by ALL cases together, with the right emphasis in the right areas. So far my opinion continues to favor Chin.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

At the risk of stirring up sensitivities....

The common symptoms of a disease by name are important in an epidemic - which you strongly note.

The characteristic and unique symptoms of each epidemic of a particular disease are of greater importance - eg, the type skin desquamation noted by a doctor in a previous epidemic of Ebola. We are yet to know if the same symptom occurs in these current epidemic s- or if there is some other unusual symptom considered irrelevant by allopathic medicos and so not reported amongst the common and characteristic symptoms of the disease.

At the point of treatment, the individualising symptoms of the patient are of paramount importance - but of course, we are not involved at that level.

Kind regards, fran.
I will also focus on the more unique and individualising symptoms

I'd think it could be so useful if any homeopaths could talk closely with any survivors, to see whether any finer details can be brought out about changes -- both during the illness, and also any changes that may have persisted after recovery? -- in mental state and generals.

Whether any of them [or their attendants] could describe their subjective experiences [or changes noticed by others] in any greater detail. Dreams, thoughts, sensations, more *detail* about fears, thoughts, concerns, anything that changed.

The homeopathic examination includes so *much* that is not considered medically! Our meat-and-potatoes are things that conventional docs would consider meaningless.

Shannon

Dear Fran,

If you have something useful to add to the discussion, then please add it.
This is not a competition about people or their sensitivities, it's a serious discussion of the best way to prevent a great number of deaths. At least, to me, it is.

If you cannot see it that way then I shall opt out of the conversation and just refer you to my already written article which is aimed at the CURRENT Ebola outbreak....in which no pemphigus-iike symppoms were mentioned that I saw in the many sources I made use of.
However, a well matched remedy will always accommodate the rest of the symptoms that were not known at time of repertorizing. WHen that happens it is usually good confirmation of the chosen remedy.

So it was good that pemphigus type symptoms ARE accommodated by the remedy I found to match the current outbreak without using pemphigus symptoms. It makes it a more general Ebola GE. If you do not like it, please come up with a good argumnet for a different remedy or a good argument against China, I did not design the illness, I just planned a remedy to match it
You speak for your own investigation, not for mine. I make a point of doing very thorough investigations, and you are welcome to try to poke holes in them as that can only add new and useful information or else confirmation of my work - both being beneficial results.
My sensitivities are in THAT mode... not the selfish one you imply, (and which is unjustifiable.)

It was news to me that pemphigus symptoms (note I do not say pemphigus disease) were present in THIS outbreak. But I was happy to take your word for it and add them. NOW you say they do NOT apply to this outbreak. Please be more specific when you choose to poke holes as I take these deaths very seriously, and my work on a genus epidemicus was in that serious light.
However, that is all the more reason that the genus epidemicus (GE) is able to cover ALL those symptoms - as many as possible - so that the number of individuals not covered by the GE is minimized.
It is my personal experiecne that the GE works best which talkes into account both the VISIBLE signs and the INTERNAL INVISIBLE ones that cause the disease symptoms - essentially the maintaining cause as Hahnemann puts it - for a disease, which for Ebola is leaking the fluid from the bloodstream. THAT is EBola's maintaining cause, to be removed according to Hahnamann.

It is this principle which has led me to an effective GE type remedy for several animal illnesses, where other homeopaths have indeed failed dismally for decades, becasue they are being superficial and not getting to the maintaining cause of the disease. So I feel the principle is well proved in practice.
See for example:



I welcome any criticism of my work, because as I said above, that can only be beneficial, but currently I have reason to feel that the Ebola research I did is strong enough to hold up to such criticism. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - and if push came to shove, with the current available information, I would be using China, and with a lot of justification, as explained in my 2nd Aug article.

Should you have a contribution to add, please do, so that I can improve that work. Lives are at stake.
I do not agree with your assessment that it is a sensitivities game.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I will leave you to it.

End of discussion for me.

Kind regards, Fran.