Minutus

Dear all,

I thought that it is better to focus on just one topic at a moment.

Regarding just one of the points that was discussed in the recent communications, it is worth noting that viruses ARE a type of parasite according to modern terminology. They are intracellular parasites in a subgroup of 'obligate intracellular parasites'. Obligate intracellular parasites cannot reproduce outside the host's cells. This is in contrast to Facultative intracellular parasites that are able to reproduce outside the cells, too. Please google 'Obligate Intracellular Parasites' to find several sources in this issue.

Warm regards,

Ardavan
Sent from my iPad

Thank you, Ardavan. Bite-sized chunks such as this are, admittedly, far easier to digest!

Cheers --

John

are we sure this is what viruses are?
what if they are messengers between cells and not at all what we have been told, in order to sell drugs and vaccines?
Sheri

At 04:06 AM 4/24/2014, you wrote:
Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://homeopathycures.wordpress.com/ & http://vaccinationdangers.wordpress.com/
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases and Child Health
Next classes start March 20, April 3 & 4

And I would question that terminology, on the grounds of allopathic prejudice or something like. Viruses may live in cells, and may not live outside them, but are not necessarily parasitic, perhaps, ranging from innocent bystanders to facilitators to garbagemen. Or so I've read… There is no question but that they are an important part of our internal population, in ways we have yet fully to appreciate.
ginny

All stunts performed without a net!

I agree totally
Sheri

At 09:17 AM 4/24/2014, you wrote:
Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://homeopathycures.wordpress.com/ & http://vaccinationdangers.wordpress.com/
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases and Child Health
Next classes start March 20, April 3 & 4

Not according to any dictionary, common or medical.
Perhaps you do not like dictionary definitions, especially scientific ones like medical disctioaries, but they are there specifically to resolve conflicts of terminology so that we all are on the same page.
VIRUS DICTIONARY VERSION:

vi·rus
ˈvīrəs/
noun

(Common usage dictionary)
1. an infective agent that typically consists of a nucleic acid molecule in a protein coat, is too small to be seen by light microscopy, and is able to multiply only within the living cells of a host.

OR
(Medical Dictionary)
2. Any of a large group of submicroscopic infective agents that are regarded either as extremely simple microorganisms or as extremely complex molecules, that typically contain a protein coat surrounding an RNA or DNA core of genetic material but no semipermeable membrane, that are capable of growth and multiplication only in living cells, and that cause various important diseases in humans, animals, or plants;
No mention of "parasite".
The difference between a virus and a parasite is that the parasite by definition gets nutrients from the host that are intended for the host.
A virus does not use nutrients at all.
Instead a virus uses the cell in which it lives, to borrow what it needs to replicate.

Thus you do not see the word parasite in either the common or the medical definition of viruses in any medical or common dictionary.
It matters more to us (or should) to understand what a virus DOES than what anyone calls it.

PARASITE DICTIONARY DEFINITION.
parasite
[per′əsīt]
1 an organism living in or on and obtaining nourishment from another organism. A facultative parasite may live on a host but is capable of living independently. An obligate parasite is one that depends entirely on its host for survival.
per
Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders,
As in the dictionary definiton, parasites can be obligate or facultative but can not be viruses as viruses do not get nutrietns from the host and are in their own category of living things.

For interest:

"virus" comes for the Latin word "venom", poisonous emanation.
"parasite" comes from the Greek word "parasitos", guest.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Please read this in Wikipedia;
Obligate intracellular parasites cannot reproduce outside their host cell, meaning that the parasite's reproduction is entirely reliant on intracellular resources.
Obligate intracellular parasites of humans include:

* viruses
* Certain bacteria , including:
* Certain protozoa , including:
* Certain fungi
The mitochondria in eukaryotic cells may also have originally been such parasites, but ended up forming a mutualistic relationship (endosymbiotic theory ).[citation needed ]
Study of obligate pathogens is difficult because they cannot usually be reproduced outside the host. However, in 2009 scientists reported a technique allowing the Q-fever pathogen Coxiella burnetii to grow in an axenic culture and suggested the technique may be useful for study of other pathogens.Intracellular parasite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Intracellular parasite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Intracellular parasites are parasitic microorganisms - microparasites that are capable of growing and reproducing inside the cells of a host.
View on en.wikipedia.org
Preview by Yahoo

Rgds,
Shakir
Not according to any dictionary, common or medical.
Perhaps you do not like dictionary definitions, especially scientific ones like medical disctioaries, but they are there specifically to resolve conflicts of terminology so that we all are on the same page.
VIRUS DICTIONARY VERSION:

vi·rus
ˈvīrəs/
noun

(Common usage dictionary)
1. an infective agent that typically consists of a nucleic acid molecule in a protein coat, is too small to be seen by light microscopy, and is able to multiply only within the living cells of a host.

OR
(Medical Dictionary)
2. Any of a large group of submicroscopic infective agents that are regarded either as extremely simple microorganisms or as extremely complex molecules, that typically contain a protein coat surrounding an RNA or DNA core of genetic material but no semipermeable membrane, that are capable of growth and multiplication only in living cells, and that cause various important diseases in humans, animals, or plants;
No mention of "parasite".
The difference between a virus and a parasite is that the parasite by definition gets nutrients from the host that are intended for the host.
A virus does not use nutrients at all.
Instead a virus uses the cell in which it lives, to borrow what it needs to replicate.

Thus you do not see the word parasite in either the common or the medical definition of viruses in any medical or common dictionary.
It matters more to us (or should) to understand what a virus DOES than what anyone calls it.

PARASITE DICTIONARY DEFINITION.
parasite
[per′əsīt]
1 an organism living in or on and obtaining nourishment from another organism. A facultative parasite may live on a host but is capable of living independently. An obligate parasite is one that depends entirely on its host for survival.
per
Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders,
As in the dictionary definiton, parasites can be obligate or facultative but can not be viruses as viruses do not get nutrietns from the host and are in their own category of living things.

For interest:

"virus" comes for the Latin word "venom", poisonous emanation.
"parasite" comes from the Greek word "parasitos", guest.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Wikipedia is not an authority on anything, the dictionary is.
......Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Dear Irene

If a virus replicates inside a cell, it must use the resources available within that cell!

If that is the case, it uses the resources of the host.

Therefore in my simple mind, it acts as a parasite.

Best wishes

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Irene de Villiers
Sent: 24 April 2014 21:50
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Intracellular Parasites (Related to Post 7)
Dear all,

I thought that it is better to focus on just one topic at a moment.

Regarding just one of the points that was discussed in the recent communications, it is worth noting that viruses ARE a type of parasite according to modern terminology.
Not according to any dictionary, common or medical.

Perhaps you do not like dictionary definitions, especially scientific ones like medical disctioaries, but they are there specifically to resolve conflicts of terminology so that we all are on the same page.
VIRUS DICTIONARY VERSION:
vi·rus
ˈvīrəs/
noun
(Common usage dictionary)
1. an infective agent that typically consists of a nucleic acid molecule in a protein coat, is too small to be seen by light microscopy, and is able to multiply only within the living cells of a host.
OR

(Medical Dictionary)

2. Any of a large group of submicroscopic infective agents that are regarded either as extremely simple microorganisms or as extremely complex molecules, that typically contain a protein coat surrounding an RNA or DNA core of genetic material but no semipermeable membrane, that are capable of growth and multiplication only in living cells, and that cause various important diseases in humans, animals, or plants;
No mention of "parasite".

The difference between a virus and a parasite is that the parasite by definition gets nutrients from the host that are intended for the host.

A virus does not use nutrients at all.

Instead a virus uses the cell in which it lives, to borrow what it needs to replicate.
Thus you do not see the word parasite in either the common or the medical definition of viruses in any medical or common dictionary.

It matters more to us (or should) to understand what a virus DOES than what anyone calls it.
PARASITE DICTIONARY DEFINITION.

parasite

[per′əsīt]

1 an organism living in or on and obtaining nourishment from another organism. A facultative parasite may live on a host but is capable of living independently. An obligate parasite is one that depends entirely on its host for survival.

per

Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders,
As in the dictionary definiton, parasites can be obligate or facultative but can not be viruses as viruses do not get nutrietns from the host and are in their own category of living things.
For interest:
"virus" comes for the Latin word "venom", poisonous emanation.

"parasite" comes from the Greek word "parasitos", guest.
Namaste,

Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

That was my thinking too, Soroush; that the virus's reproduction necessitates the use of chemical building blocks, which presumably are stolen from the cell. Unless the building blocks are merely waste material, that process must surely be parasitic in the sense that it takes nutrients from the cell.

Of course, the energy required for the reproductive process must come from somewhere too, and therefore theoretically must also (at least indirectly) use some of the cell's battery of ATP. (On the other hand, a virus able to fulfill its chemical-energy needs from the heat of the cell, rather than steal the cell's chemical energy, would indirectly lower the cost of removing excess heat from the cell! But I suspect that this never occurs. There's a reason for which viruses need to be inside cells!)

I think you're right, Irene, that it doesn't matter too much whether we call a virus a parasite or not, as long as we know whether or not we're including it in descriptions applying to parasites, such as those you and Soroush have posted here about invocation of Th1 versus Th2. (And that may be why biologists apparently tend to include viruses amongst the parasites and common perception would not: that it doesn't really matter.)

My own question along these lines, about whether you're including or excluding the larger parasites, was intended to clarify for me whether you were including such larger ones in your own discussion of the processes applying to parasites.

Incidentally, as with any definition, it's more useful for a dictionary (common or biological) to specify those things, and only those things, that determine whether something is a virus or not a virus -- which is in fact the sole function of a definition -- than to attempt to include details inessential to that determination.

In that sense, it wouldn't be necessary for any dictionary definition of a virus, if it is a parasite, to say so, any more than it would be necessary to say that a virus is potentially morbific; we can define the virus very well without doing so -- and, in the most general case ("what is a virus?"), to do so more accurately and with a lower likelihood of later finding it necessary to hedge due to discoveries such as the possibilities that Ginny and Sheri have just canvassed here (that a virus is not always harmful; that it is perhaps never intrinsically harmful), or such as the hypothetical possibility that a certain virus may manage to eke out a "living" and reproduce itself without the least cost to the host.

Cheers --

John