Minutus

The only rule that I know of in Homeopathy Open is that members are not allowed to ask for or suggest a remedy for an individual person. This is because I think Tam was threatened with legal action when this happened. This is why members are on moderation when they first post in case this happens. There are also no sales posts allowed. (OK that’s 2 rules J) I agree that at the moment the group is not very active.
Irene – I am sure you were around when the group was set up because of the arguments when people dared mention a herbal remedy/Vit/Mineral or prescribing that was not strictly classical. Maybe this group (Minutus) gives a little more leeway these days.
Rochelle
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Irene de Villiers
Homeopathy Open List is unpopular and flawed becasue Dr Tam implements rules that do not apply to the writers, such as his views on what is legal to say as a homeopath.
The problem is that he does not live where the members live, is not responsible for what they say but does not see that, and does not know the rules where we are, (which are other than as he has invented them) and so it stifles discussion, members get tossed or their well written emails are rejected, after they spent a lot of time and effort and emotional energy writing them.

THAT is why there is no discussion there any more.
(None this year; 26 emails for all last year; less every year.)

SO.... MInutus is appreciated becasue it DOES have some leeway and allows some peripheral subjects that can lead to core discussion with improved understanding. And writers are not led by the nose or getting their emails tossed if they ARE appropriate there.

Homeopaths are the wrong group to try to lead by the nose. We work in an "individualized" scieince. ANd it behooves us to also be individuals, - who better to understand others' individual issues - despite that we do use many common *principles*.

At least - That is how I experience it.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

It is not the only rule. My posts have been blocked for talking of how to choose a remedy for an animal who was a hypothetical one.
Its baloney. Tam cannot be threatened with legal action for what some other person does, how ridiculous, and also there is a rule of Free Speech in USA which applies for free medical advice, and it is USA laws that apply to Yahoo groups. Homeopathy_Open is a yahoo group.
So whoever tried to scare him, he should have laughed in their fasce.
If someone tries to prevent free speech THEY are at risk for litigation in USA - they have it backwards.

Tam is only responsible for what Tam does no matter who tries to threaten him about what a list member writes.
And the members of his list are responsible for what they write under the laws where THEY live, not laws where Tam lives, wherever that is. So that supposed threat is all nonsense.

Only if general laws are allowed by Tam to be broken, ones that apply to all like copyright or privacy laws that apply to ALL members equally, and that he reasonably would be expected to know, could he be shown to be condoning illegal activity and potentially his group might be closed. Very unlikely, but possible in theory.

Offering medical advice is perfectly legal at no charge in most places, either specifically or under free speech laws, and it is specifically stated that it is allowed within the medical practice laws in many areas, certainly many US laws. So why is Tam denying memebers their right to say what is legal to say.

The story about a threat doesn't wash.
In USA the medical law is at state level. WA state for example allows free medical advice or any other activity a vet may do, to be given free to any animal owner treating their own animal anywhere in the world.
Who does Tam think he is to disallow that specifically legal free speech and medical advice?

We have enough hassle as homeopaths without Tam playing daddy as if to a bunch of children whose responsibility it is to obey medical laws where they live and which are different for the different list memebrs.
It's not Tam's job or any other list owner's job, to know the medical and veterinary laws of all the 50 US states and how to interpert them! Whoever supposedly threatened Tam can put that in their pipe and smoke it.

Tam is playing daddy to adults he treats as babies.
He can try that - he does try - it is his list - but it is why nobody uses his list.
Adults do not like being babied for no valid reason and definitely do not like their time and emails deleted and discarded unseen. It is the SAME as destroying a work of art.
No point having a homeopathy list that destroys the works of homeopahty art of its members.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

We actually have BIG problems in UK because of a quango called the ASA (Advertising standards Agency) which investigates complaints from the general public and there only needs to be 1 complaint.

. On our websites or if someone phones us we are not allowed to say that we treat any diseases at all!!!!!! On my website I have got around this by saying :- Although a consultation is holistic, in that it treats the whole person, conditions I am frequently consulted for are:- and then I have a list!!!

Skeptics monitor us all the time and try to get us closed down. I was even mentioned on a blog that went viral once because of something I had written on this list and also because I had stated that I had done Dr Ramakrishnan’s Cancer Seminar. That was interpreted that I treated cancer which by law we are not allowed to do in UK.
Rochelle
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Irene de Villiers
Sent: 24 March 2014 10:54
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] FW: Minutus and Homeopathy Open / MSM and Aloe Vera
It is not the only rule. My posts have been blocked for talking of how to choose a remedy for an animal who was a hypothetical one.
Its baloney. Tam cannot be threatened with legal action for what some other person does, how ridiculous, and also there is a rule of Free Speech in USA which applies for free medical advice, and it is USA laws that apply to Yahoo groups. Homeopathy_Open is a yahoo group.
So whoever tried to scare him, he should have laughed in their fasce.
If someone tries to prevent free speech THEY are at risk for litigation in USA - they have it backwards.

Tam is only responsible for what Tam does no matter who tries to threaten him about what a list member writes.
And the members of his list are responsible for what they write under the laws where THEY live, not laws where Tam lives, wherever that is. So that supposed threat is all nonsense.

Only if general laws are allowed by Tam to be broken, ones that apply to all like copyright or privacy laws that apply to ALL members equally, and that he reasonably would be expected to know, could he be shown to be condoning illegal activity and potentially his group might be closed. Very unlikely, but possible in theory.

Offering medical advice is perfectly legal at no charge in most places, either specifically or under free speech laws, and it is specifically stated that it is allowed within the medical practice laws in many areas, certainly many US laws. So why is Tam denying memebers their right to say what is legal to say.

The story about a threat doesn't wash.
In USA the medical law is at state level. WA state for example allows free medical advice or any other activity a vet may do, to be given free to any animal owner treating their own animal anywhere in the world.
Who does Tam think he is to disallow that specifically legal free speech and medical advice?

We have enough hassle as homeopaths without Tam playing daddy as if to a bunch of children whose responsibility it is to obey medical laws where they live and which are different for the different list memebrs.
It's not Tam's job or any other list owner's job, to know the medical and veterinary laws of all the 50 US states and how to interpert them! Whoever supposedly threatened Tam can put that in their pipe and smoke it.

Tam is playing daddy to adults he treats as babies.
He can try that - he does try - it is his list - but it is why nobody uses his list.
Adults do not like being babied for no valid reason and definitely do not like their time and emails deleted and discarded unseen. It is the SAME as destroying a work of art.
No point having a homeopathy list that destroys the works of homeopahty art of its members.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Oh my, THAT is sad! Exactly what so many on the lists do want to hear. The information would have been warmly welcomed at Beyond, or on Homelist.
I was told that he was told by Yahoo that someone was complaining to them, and they would shut the list down. This never happened to any of the other lists; I don't know whether he invented the problem, or was being harassed by someone who was following the list. Either seems possible.

But in any case, there were and are other lists where this problem could be avoided.

Yes but what has that got to do with Yahoogroups which is in USA and under US law and under the Yahoo terms of service agreement (the TOS - which has a link at the end of every email ever sent on any list to anyone) and which accepts members worldwide provided they agree to the Yahoogroups TOS?
YOU agreed that and Tam did and I did. We all agree it or we would not have yahoo IDs and would not be able to write to any list. SO we all are signatiroes to the Yahoogropups TOS - AS IS YAHOO.

https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Local governments such as UK or WA state or Nigeria, have jurisdiction over what people do who live there. They alone have jurisdiction to accuse anyone of wrongdoing inside their jurisdiction against the laws of THEIR jurisdiction. Not Yahoo, and not yahoogroup managers/owners.
This is also absolutely clear in the Yahoogroups TOS.

Some of the most relevant TOS statements are (the ones relevant to this list issue - others are to do with malicious activities and vandalism):
Note that Yahoo will remove a PERSON from Yahoo, not a list owner, if there is a complant they think warrants it. If that person owns a list and has no alternate owner named, then the list can be orphaned with no management.
TOS TERMS:

* You understand that all information, data, text, software, music, sound, photographs, graphics, video, messages, tags, or other materials ("Content"), whether publicly posted or privately transmitted, are the sole responsibility of the person from whom such Content originated.

* Yahoo does not control the Content posted via the Yahoo Services
* You agree to not use the Yahoo Services to:
g. upload, post, email, transmit, or otherwise make available any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials,... or any other form of solicitation
k. intentionally or unintentionally violate any applicable local, state, national or international law,
* You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks associated with, the use of any Content.
* You agree that Yahoo may, without prior notice, immediately terminate, limit your access to or suspend your Yahoo account, any associated email address, and access to the Yahoo Services.
Cause for such termination, limitation of access or suspension shall include, but not be limited to,
(a) breaches or violations of the TOS
(f) engagement by you in fraudulent or illegal activities
* Entire Agreement. The TOS constitutes the entire agreement between you and Yahoo and governs your use of the Yahoo Services, superseding any prior version of this TOS between you and Yahoo with respect to the Yahoo Services.
I have been on lists for a long time, long before this TOS came into being. But THIS is the only TOS that applies currently.
In 1998 the one-groups TOS used to have terms to do with giving advice (mnedical, legal, building, etc) . Those have specifically been removed and replaced by saying each member must follow the laws where they live and Yahoo is not responsible for what they say, and that other members are responsible for deciding to follow any advice (or not).

So there is nothing valid in the claim of threats from Tam, unless someone accused him persoanlly of breaking UK law assuming he lives in UK. Then TAM, not his list, could be removed becazue Tam broke the law where Tam lives.

Tam is not qualified or required to judge who does something illegal or not by the laws where that person lives.
It's the law where you live that you must follow. It's not the law all list members of yahoogroups must follow. Each person must follow the law where they live. If you break it and someoe reports you to Yahoo as breaking laws usign yahoo to do so, then Yahoo can remove YOU (not a list) for breaking laws where YOU live.
Yeah, I especially know this being involved in a court battle currently, though not through anything on any list, (nor is their claim valid as I am still working to prove, the wheels turn very slowly.)

I will not do two hours of research to help someone, and write a careful and totally legal and TOS-compliant email on the topic of Homeopathy.....to Homeopathy-Open (or any list) for use by a member with a problem I can solve adn took time to solve at no charge - only to have my hard work destroyed and tossed in the garbage by some fraidycat list manager with no decent reason for the destruction of my work.

That is the height of arrogance and destructive behavior combined.
My time has value whether I charge for my efforts or not.
Do not ask me to support that arrogance and destruction by participating on such a list!

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Wow Irene you certainly know your TOS of Yahoo.
I know Tam and his wife well and yes he is from UK and I feel if that is the way he wishes to run his group it is up to him. If people don’t like it they needn’t belong. It was a good group in its heyday with lots of good discussions.
Please don’t get yourself agitated about this as it is really not important. Concentrate on yourself and your circumstances which are far more important. I so hope that you manage to prove your point for the courts.
All the best
Rochelle
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Irene de Villiers
Sent: 24 March 2014 23:39
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] FW: Minutus and Homeopathy Open / MSM and Aloe Vera
Yes but what has that got to do with Yahoogroups which is in USA and under US law and under the Yahoo terms of service agreement (the TOS - which has a link at the end of every email ever sent on any list to anyone) and which accepts members worldwide provided they agree to the Yahoogroups TOS?

YOU agreed that and Tam did and I did. We all agree it or we would not have yahoo IDs and would not be able to write to any list. SO we all are signatiroes to the Yahoogropups TOS - AS IS YAHOO.
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
Local governments such as UK or WA state or Nigeria, have jurisdiction over what people do who live there. They alone have jurisdiction to accuse anyone of wrongdoing inside their jurisdiction against the laws of THEIR jurisdiction. Not Yahoo, and not yahoogroup managers/owners.

This is also absolutely clear in the Yahoogroups TOS.
Some of the most relevant TOS statements are (the ones relevant to this list issue - others are to do with malicious activities and vandalism):

Note that Yahoo will remove a PERSON from Yahoo, not a list owner, if there is a complant they think warrants it. If that person owns a list and has no alternate owner named, then the list can be orphaned with no management.

TOS TERMS:
* You understand that all information, data, text, software, music, sound, photographs, graphics, video, messages, tags, or other materials ("Content"), whether publicly posted or privately transmitted, are the sole responsibility of the person from whom such Content originated.
* Yahoo does not control the Content posted via the Yahoo Services
* You agree to not use the Yahoo Services to:

g. upload, post, email, transmit, or otherwise make available any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials,... or any other form of solicitation

k. intentionally or unintentionally violate any applicable local, state, national or international law,
* You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks associated with, the use of any Content.
* You agree that Yahoo may, without prior notice, immediately terminate, limit your access to or suspend your Yahoo account, any associated email address, and access to the Yahoo Services.

Cause for such termination, limitation of access or suspension shall include, but not be limited to,

(a) breaches or violations of the TOS

(f) engagement by you in fraudulent or illegal activities
* Entire Agreement. The TOS constitutes the entire agreement between you and Yahoo and governs your use of the Yahoo Services, superseding any prior version of this TOS between you and Yahoo with respect to the Yahoo Services.
I have been on lists for a long time, long before this TOS came into being. But THIS is the only TOS that applies currently.

In 1998 the one-groups TOS used to have terms to do with giving advice (mnedical, legal, building, etc) . Those have specifically been removed and replaced by saying each member must follow the laws where they live and Yahoo is not responsible for what they say, and that other members are responsible for deciding to follow any advice (or not).
So there is nothing valid in the claim of threats from Tam, unless someone accused him persoanlly of breaking UK law assuming he lives in UK. Then TAM, not his list, could be removed becazue Tam broke the law where Tam lives.
Tam is not qualified or required to judge who does something illegal or not by the laws where that person lives.
On our websites or if someone phones us we are not allowed to say that we treat any diseases at all!!!!!!
It's the law where you live that you must follow. It's not the law all list members of yahoogroups must follow. Each person must follow the law where they live. If you break it and someoe reports you to Yahoo as breaking laws usign yahoo to do so, then Yahoo can remove YOU (not a list) for breaking laws where YOU live.
Yeah, I especially know this being involved in a court battle currently, though not through anything on any list, (nor is their claim valid as I am still working to prove, the wheels turn very slowly.)
I will not do two hours of research to help someone, and write a careful and totally legal and TOS-compliant email on the topic of Homeopathy.....to Homeopathy-Open (or any list) for use by a member with a problem I can solve adn took time to solve at no charge - only to have my hard work destroyed and tossed in the garbage by some fraidycat list manager with no decent reason for the destruction of my work.
That is the height of arrogance and destructive behavior combined.

My time has value whether I charge for my efforts or not.

Do not ask me to support that arrogance and destruction by participating on such a list!
Namaste,

Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

There is no need to be rude.

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Irene - that was not rudeness- It was concern for you
So sorry (I am offended) you interpreted it that way when I have never been
rude to you or anyone on this group.

Rochelle