Minutus

I went to a dinner last night for my 50th yr reunion from high school. I was
sitting across from the wife of a classmate who was considered the smartest
kid in the universe(though socially inept, probably aspergers). I mentioned
something about homeopathy to someone else and this woman said, "there is
absolutely no scientific evidence to support homeopathy." I asked her if she
had heard of the memory of water study and she said, that study has been
debunked. I wasn't going to spend the dinner defending anything. I said it has
worked for me for 30 years. Well, that is just placebo, she said. I just
stopped talking to her and talked to my neighbors about other things. I will
see this woman again this afternoon and I can completely avoid her or go
whisper something in her ear and walk away. Anyone have an idea of what I
should whisper? Please send privately as I don't get the list until tommorow
morning.

Hi Carol,

I'm sending both privately and to the list, because I think it's a terrific topic for discussion, and would like to hear others' thoughts as well.

A number of possibly relevant things come to my mind, e.g.:

** When a discussion becomes combative, neither side is listening to the other. Instead, both are focused solely on proving their own points, expressing their own beliefs. If you want someone to *hear* you, you need to help them find a listening space to do it from.
You can't *force* someone to listen; you can only invite them to, make it perhaps more interesting to listen than to "posture."
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Your best shot at having it work, is to simply *not care* -- but if possible in a friendly way -- whether she listens or not.
I would say that if you feel like simply stiffing her, go for it; consider it respecting your own needs, plus perhaps damage control.

Or if you can find some curiosity, you could ask her to tell you where she has been getting her information about homeopathy, and what she knows about those "informants'" background in it. Because (a) it could be interesting, and (b) by listening to *her*, you might possibly help create a space for her to listen to you. (I'd just say, don't bother with this unless you can *find* some curiosity in yourself about what she thinks she knows, and why; otherwise it would quickly devolve into just more posturing!)

Another possibility would be to avoid the topic of homeopathy, and see whether there's any congenial conversation to be had on other topics. Same caveats as above. (We don't need to make any converts; and IMO better to skip the irony of having conversation about a *healing* topic become either a weapon or a pawn in a war of ill-feelings! I think we need to do, or at least strive for, better than that, both as healers and just as people.)
I guess that's my 1.5 cents for opening...
Good luck!

Shannon

I sent off list my usual comment “You can’t tell babies and animals it is all in the mind and it works on them” .People normally don’t have an answer to that one!!
Rochelle Marsden MSc, RSHom, MNWCH, AAMET

Registered with the Society of Homeopaths

EFT(Advanced) Practitioner

www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/southporthomeopathicpractice
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shannon Nelson
Sent: 28 July 2012 16:58
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Carol Orr
Subject: Re: [Minutus] 50th yr. reunion
Hi Carol,
I'm sending both privately and to the list, because I think it's a terrific topic for discussion, and would like to hear others' thoughts as well.
A number of possibly relevant things come to my mind, e.g.:
** When a discussion becomes combative, neither side is listening to the other. Instead, both are focused solely on proving their own points, expressing their own beliefs. If you want someone to *hear* you, you need to help them find a listening space to do it from.

You can't *force* someone to listen; you can only invite them to, make it perhaps more interesting to listen than to "posture."

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Your best shot at having it work, is to simply *not care* -- but if possible in a friendly way -- whether she listens or not.
I would say that if you feel like simply stiffing her, go for it; consider it respecting your own needs, plus perhaps damage control.
Or if you can find some curiosity, you could ask her to tell you where she has been getting her information about homeopathy, and what she knows about those "informants'" background in it. Because (a) it could be interesting, and (b) by listening to *her*, you might possibly help create a space for her to listen to you. (I'd just say, don't bother with this unless you can *find* some curiosity in yourself about what she thinks she knows, and why; otherwise it would quickly devolve into just more posturing!)
Another possibility would be to avoid the topic of homeopathy, and see whether there's any congenial conversation to be had on other topics. Same caveats as above. (We don't need to make any converts; and IMO better to skip the irony of having conversation about a *healing* topic become either a weapon or a pawn in a war of ill-feelings! I think we need to do, or at least strive for, better than that, both as healers and just as people.)
I guess that's my 1.5 cents for opening...

Good luck!
Shannon
I went to a dinner last night for my 50th yr reunion from high school. I was
sitting across from the wife of a classmate who was considered the smartest
kid in the universe(though socially inept, probably aspergers). I mentioned
something about homeopathy to someone else and this woman said, "there is
absolutely no scientific evidence to support homeopathy." I asked her if she
had heard of the memory of water study and she said, that study has been
debunked. I wasn't going to spend the dinner defending anything. I said it has
worked for me for 30 years. Well, that is just placebo, she said. I just
stopped talking to her and talked to my neighbors about other things. I will
see this woman again this afternoon and I can completely avoid her or go
whisper something in her ear and walk away. Anyone have an idea of what I
should whisper? Please send privately as I don't get the list until tommorow
morning.

And plants have even less attachment to humans who care for them.
I am collecting some very interesting results using homeopathy in the garden.
Kaviraj was quite helpful in this arena.
Shannon’s approach is a good one in many ways. I tend to be able to do what
she suggests when talking with some of the most reactionary, conservative,
fundamentalist people. And when I do, we have some of the best conversations.
So detach and probe. I guess that is the formula. If you can keep yourself out of the
dialogue, you can often lead the discussion to where you want it to go by asking
the other about their opinion, why they have it, what are their personal experiences
if any. Then, being clever, you can bring up examples that contradict them and ask
them about they understand them. And keep going down that road till you can
insert opposite beliefs in a non-judgemental way. People like your opponent can
be awfully defensive so you will be doing a lot of side stepping that defensiveness.
Just some thoughts that may help.
Of course you can blow her off and ignore her.
t
From: rochelle Marsden
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 2:29 PM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: FW: [Minutus] 50th yr. reunion

I sent off list my usual comment “You can’t tell babies and animals it is all in the mind and it works on them” .People normally don’t have an answer to that one!!

Rochelle Marsden MSc, RSHom, MNWCH, AAMET

Registered with the Society of Homeopaths

EFT(Advanced) Practitioner

www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/southporthomeopathicpractice

From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shannon Nelson
Sent: 28 July 2012 16:58
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Carol Orr
Subject: Re: [Minutus] 50th yr. reunion
Hi Carol,

I'm sending both privately and to the list, because I think it's a terrific topic for discussion, and would like to hear others' thoughts as well.

A number of possibly relevant things come to my mind, e.g.:

** When a discussion becomes combative, neither side is listening to the other. Instead, both are focused solely on proving their own points, expressing their own beliefs. If you want someone to *hear* you, you need to help them find a listening space to do it from.

You can't *force* someone to listen; you can only invite them to, make it perhaps more interesting to listen than to "posture."

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Your best shot at having it work, is to simply *not care* -- but if possible in a friendly way -- whether she listens or not.

I would say that if you feel like simply stiffing her, go for it; consider it respecting your own needs, plus perhaps damage control.

Or if you can find some curiosity, you could ask her to tell you where she has been getting her information about homeopathy, and what she knows about those "informants'" background in it. Because (a) it could be interesting, and (b) by listening to *her*, you might possibly help create a space for her to listen to you. (I'd just say, don't bother with this unless you can *find* some curiosity in yourself about what she thinks she knows, and why; otherwise it would quickly devolve into just more posturing!)

Another possibility would be to avoid the topic of homeopathy, and see whether there's any congenial conversation to be had on other topics. Same caveats as above. (We don't need to make any converts; and IMO better to skip the irony of having conversation about a *healing* topic become either a weapon or a pawn in a war of ill-feelings! I think we need to do, or at least strive for, better than that, both as healers and just as people.)

I guess that's my 1.5 cents for opening...

Good luck!

Shannon
I went to a dinner last night for my 50th yr reunion from high school. I was
sitting across from the wife of a classmate who was considered the smartest
kid in the universe(though socially inept, probably aspergers). I mentioned
something about homeopathy to someone else and this woman said, "there is
absolutely no scientific evidence to support homeopathy." I asked her if she
had heard of the memory of water study and she said, that study has been
debunked. I wasn't going to spend the dinner defending anything. I said it has
worked for me for 30 years. Well, that is just placebo, she said. I just
stopped talking to her and talked to my neighbors about other things. I will
see this woman again this afternoon and I can completely avoid her or go
whisper something in her ear and walk away. Anyone have an idea of what I
should whisper? Please send privately as I don't get the list until tommorow
morning.

Good advice, Shannon, but I think Carol ought to go for it. A question that needs to be asked is: what are the qualifications of the people debunking homeopathy, including Carol's antagonist? I, for one, am tired of arrogant ignoramuses pontificating on how there's no basis for homeopathy when they don't understand the first thing about it.
I am NOT advocating being deliberately confrontational or trying to expose another's ignorance. What I am advocating is planting those little seeds of doubt about how solid her information is. Surely there's enough in the history of medicine to suggest that science and scientific understanding change, often rapidly. Nothing is immutable in the world of "scientific" doctrine.
Carol, you might take a look at an article I wrote years ago which discusses, inter alia, medicine's various "understandings" of disease causation over the years. It's called "Discovering Homeopathy" and it's at www.igansupport.org
Peace,
Dale

I just push them to make fools of themselves.......
I start with a big, astonished look on my face and say "Really? Can you demonstrate what you say? Can you prove it? What are your references?" putting the onus on them......
It often evolves in "tell me, where did you learn all you know about homeopathy?" then "how can you talk so assuredly about something you do not have a clue about?" and "so, if you fly in a plane it proves that gravity does not exist, according to your way of presenting science"......
They generally quit in disgust....it does not convince or sway anyone, but at times it makes other people think....... And it satisfies my sadistic streak
Joe.
 
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

tee hee

Sheri

At 04:50 PM 7/28/2012, you wrote:
Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://homeopathycures.wordpress.com/ & http://vaccinationdangers.wordpress.com/
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases
Next classes start August 2

Hi Carol,
National Center for Homeopathy’s website has a great list of FAQs on their Advocacy Campaign page:
http://www.nationalcenterforhomeopathy. ... y-campaign
and university types tend to be more impressed with the research:
http://www.nationalcenterforhomeopathy. ... s-research
Hope some of these help your ‘cause’
Kristy

I also answered Carol off-list but, on reading others' approaches, I thought I would also share what I wrote her:

"I would tell her that the world is a mysterious place that we know not of. Pretty much everything we" know" is only theory. Ask any scientist or researcher. Even Einstein said so. So it's best to keep an open mind and just keep testing and exploring. That seems to be our only option anyway. Once we choose to "park" on any set of beliefs, we stop growing and become stagnant. Beliefs only serve to give us a false sense of security. There is no security, no pat answers in our world. There are only questions and theories. Those can be fun and amazing to explore - if we let them."
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Orr" wrote:

I'm with you Dr. J.! Love the plane analogy.
Peace,
Dale
I just push them to make fools of themselves.......
I start with a big, astonished look on my face and say "Really? Can you demonstrate what you say? Can you prove it? What are your references?" putting the onus on them......
It often evolves in "tell me, where did you learn all you know about homeopathy?" then "how can you talk so assuredly about something you do not have a clue about?" and "so, if you fly in a plane it proves that gravity does not exist, according to your way of presenting science"......
They generally quit in disgust....it does not convince or sway anyone, but at times it makes other people think....... And it satisfies my sadistic streak
Joe.
 
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com