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The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:30 am
by John Harvey
In discussing homoeopathy's meaning, the meaning of meaning itself and its relationship to definition have come into question, with confusion persisting in some quarters (for at least five years now) between definition and acceptability.
It's my hope that in making this discussion more personal and thus more concrete, we can clarify that defence of meaning is not rejection of anything other than an attack on meaning.
So I'm going to tackle the question of the meaning of John Harvey.
The analogy I'm going to use is imperfect: it concerns identification rather than definition. Still, I think it will make the point sufficiently well.
When it comes to things with proper names, often there is more than one of them with the same name. (Hence middle names.) To get that out of the way, I'm going to discuss the John Harvey writing this argument and suppose that he's a human being.
In defining the identity of human beings and other sentient animals, we tend to use "who" (and "whom") rather than "it", "what", and "that"; it doesn't much affect what we're doing here, though.
The John Harvey writing this argument is (let us assume) a male human being, loving father of two, living in Australia, and a homoeopath.
Accurate or not, that describes the John Harvey writing this argument. But does it identify him? Could there be two such?
Of course there could be. So, although it describes him, it does not identify him.
The John Harvey writing this argument is the human being born on the side of the Busselton Highway, four to six kilometres north of Busselton, at 2:37 to 2:38 p.m. on 12 January 1932, in the back of the station wagon bearing Western Australian registration plate number 80.
Accurate or not, that describes him too. Does it identify which person we're talking about? Could there be two human beings meeting that description? Most definitely there could not. Tying his birth to the registration number alone most likely identifies a unique human being. Adding the time makes it a certainty; there was only one baby born in the car at that time. So -- yes, it (correctly or incorrectly) identifies who the author is.
The John Harvey writing this argument used to be a nice man. Now he's nasty. He used to dance; now he ducks and weaves. And, once flexible and helpful, now he's downright ornery.
This illustrates that the author has adopted new characteristics and lost old ones. But, according to our notions of the identity of a person -- of which human being he is -- do these changes mean that the writer of this argument is no longer the person born in station wagon 80?
No, they don't. Although they may reflect changes in how he approaches life or whether his old friends still respect him, they don't change who (or what) he is. They don't change the identification of which human being it is who is the John Harvey writing this piece. They don't change the fact being stated: that the author of this piece is the person whose mother named him, after birth on the Busselton Highway, "John Harvey".
All clear so far?
Now, suppose John Harvey (the author of this piece) meets a far better human being, one whose heart is filled with kindness, whose actions inspire, whose very presence is ennobling, and that he consequently sees the error of his ways, sheds his ignoble traits, and becomes a saint.
The John Harvey I used to know is gone, and in his place is a saint. He is an entirely different person.
This sounds like a new identity: John Harvey used to be one person and now is another. But is it? Is it the case that the author of this piece, now a new man and a saint, is no longer the human being born in station wagon 80?
No, it is not the case. Though characteristics of John Harvey have changed, what he is -- the very stuff that tells us that this human being is the human being we mean, the one born in station wagon 80 -- has not. His nature may have altered, but his true identity simply cannot.
Now, let's suppose that we learn that there has been a mixup. We learn that the John Harvey writing this piece is not the human being born in station wagon 80 at all; that that John Harvey passed away peacefully at the age of 75 in 2007; and that the "John Harvey" writing this piece is a virtual memebot sent back to the year 2004 from the year 2262 for a lark, in order to insult polypaths on homoeopathy lists and give them a taste of their own medicine.
The John Harvey writing this argument is a sentient memebot originating in 2262.
With our newfound knowledge, does the above identify John Harvey? Well, it's hard to say, but there are probably several million sentient memebots due for manufacture in 2262; so it probably does not sufficiently identify him.
The John Harvey writing this argument is the memebot originating in 2262 and writing in 2011 and 2012 on the Minutus and Homeopathy e-mail lists under the names John Harvey, Rik Shannon, and Shannon Nelson.
Correct or not, does this adequately identify exactly what the author of this argument is? Obviously it does: there is not more than one membot writing under all those names. (Of course, there may be no such memebot. In that case, this identification would be -- wrongly, obviously -- identifying John Harvey as something that does not exist.)
The John Harvey writing this argument is a memebot from 2262 due for maintenance recall in 2014.
Correct or not, does that identify the author? Again: no, if more than one memebot from 2262 is due for maintenance recall in 2014.
So, although it may be a true and accurate description to say that (this) John Harvey is nothing but a memebot, accuracy of the description does not tie down the meaning of the term definitely and unambiguously, and therefore does not identify him. When we have (this) "John Harvey" uniquely defined -- by distinguishing him from all else -- then and only then have we sufficiently encompassed the meaning of the term.
Of course, we could define (this) "John Harvey" in other terms -- for instance:
The John Harvey writing this piece is the sentient memebot of (hexadecimal) serial number 2262 EEAE 0114.
Because the serial number is unique, it uniquely identifies what it is that the author of this piece is.
So when you look up that serial number, you find that it is indeed the memebot writing under the names John Harvey, Rick Shannon, and Shannon Nelson -- and perhaps learn much else about him. (Sentient memebots too are pronouned "who" and "whom", by the way, for the same reasons for which human beings are.)
The two identifications -- the one that mentions 2004 and some noms de plume, and one that mentions a serial number -- look very different. In fact, though, it is easy, as you can see, to show that they identify the author as exactly the same thing: this memebot and no other. (In just the same way, we may identify ourselves using out driver's licence or by using a birth certificate or passport.)
When somebody with the authority to do so (i.e., the person inventing it) defines the meaning of a term, if he has done so correctly, the meaning is sufficiently clear that it incorporates all that he intended and distinguishes all else from it.
There are three ways to make a mistake in defining what you mean.
If, in attempting to represent what was intended, the definition is too broad, then it will inadvertently include other things the author intended it to include and cause confusion between those accidentally included things and what he intended.
If it is too narrow, it will inadvertently exclude things its author intended it to include. This may not matter: when one intends to refer to both the defined thing and some other thing, one can use two names. Or one can create a new term defined as incorporating both.
If it is too vague, it may not make clear at all which things it includes and which it does not.
So one can make a mistake and accidentally define the word as something other than the thing one intended. But there is one kind of error that one cannot make in creating the definition of a word: the error of being wrong.
This is where definition parts company at times from identification.
In identifying the author of this piece as being memebot 2262 EEAE 0114, it is possible to be wrong. That's because what we're doing in the process of identification is making an indicative statement of fact concerning the identity of one thing with another, a statement arising from discovery. We may "discover" something today only to learn tomorrow that we were wrong.
This is a little different, though, from naming John Harvey. If the human being born in station wagon 80 between 2:37 and 2:38 p.m. on 12 January 1932 was formally given the name (defined as) John Harvey, then that's who John Harvey is, and it can't be wrong. And if the John Harvey writing this piece is that John Harvey, then he is also the human being born in those circumstances, and that cannot be wrong.
Let me say this in a different way. In naming the baby born in station wagon 80 "John Harvey", the baby's mother could not be wrong. Ever. John Harvey is that baby.
Definition is like that: it can't be wrong. It is what it is. It means what it means.
We may wish that there were more of John Harvey, or less of him; bad luck. We may wish that homoeopathy included more than it does, or less; bad luck. It includes what it includes and nothing else.
So: what does it include? Hahnemann made that clear. It includes administration, to a patient whose illness is known in detail, of a single, simple medicinal substance upon the basis that the similarity of its effects known in detail and with certainty to the totality of the patient's illness symptoms is the greatest that the practitioner can discern amongst the candidate substances available.
What does it exclude? Everything else!
Actually, even the above definition is overly careful. We could remove the words "single, simple" and leave it entirely unchanged, simply because the rest of the definition entails "single, simple" anyway. We could specify that the knowledge of the effects of the medicine on the healthy must be obtained not by observing their "curative" effects but by observing their deranging ones; but again it is unnecessary to do so, as that is implicit in the term "deranging effects known in detail and with certainty".
And of course we can use different phrasing to express the same thing, just as we can use either serial number or something else to arrive at the same sentient memebot as the identity of the author of this argument.
In what ways does the definition confine homoeopathic practice? It requires case-taking; knowledge of pathogenesis; comparison; and administration. But it does not necessarily require pencils, computers, or even books; it does not exclude consultation with other professionals or repeat consultations with the patient; it does not prevent the institution of new pathogenetic trials, new protocols, new medicines, or fresh recognition of the nature of symptoms or signs; it forestalls no new research. It in fact permits any new techniques that allow fulfilment of the single principle it expresses: that medicine be used upon the law of similars (necessitating knowledge both of patient and of medicinal effect).
But by the same token, the definition does exclude every practice that is not homoeopathy: all the practices that fail to meet the criterion that they use pathogenetic similarity to the patient's illness as the sole reason for the prescription.
So, you see, when you boil it all down, it's very, very simple. There's homoeopathy, and there's everything else. It's not a judgement; it's not rejection of other practices; it's just the simple fact.
When we practise homoeopathy, of course, we complement it with common sense, guesswork, and blind courage, as otherwise our lack of total certainty might prevent us from prescribing any medicine; and we use complementary techniques to ensure its success: dietetics, kindness, exclusion of morbific influences, sufficient exercise stress to maintain the organism's fitness, etc. If you once begin to imagine that these complementary techniques are part of what homoeopathy is, you instantly lose your understanding of what it is. These other things help; they may even be wholly necessary to the patient's gentle, prompt, permanent recovery; they are not, however, homoeopathy.
Cheers --
John
--
"Do pertussis vaccines prevent children and adults from breathing in pertussis bacteria from the air? No. Do children vaccinated with the pertussis vaccine somehow stop carrying pertussis bacteria in their airways simply because they've been vaccinated? No. Do pertussis vaccines stop vaccinated children from transmitting the pertussis bacteria to other people? No. Do pertussis bacteria disappear from society once vaccination rates are high? No.
"Vaccination rates for pertussis have no impact on whether the pertussis bacteria are in the air or not, or whether or not we breathe them in. The presence of the pertussis bacteria, and the exposure to them, are in no way affected by vaccination status or vaccination rates."
—Lawrence B. Palevsky, M.D., "False alarm over pertussis 'outbreak': a letter from Lawrence B. Palevsky, December 2011",

Re: The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:04 am
by Shannon Nelson
Cute, John!
Briefly, I think it is again back to the distinction between "homeopathy as a healing principle" (pretty much like-cures-like) and "homeopathy as a method.

Two somewhat separate meanings.
Polypharmacy certainly partakes of the "healing principle", so in that respect it can reasonably be called ("a type of") "homeopathy."

But it was specifically proscribed by Hahnemann, so it cannot be considered part of Hahnemannian (or classical) homeopathy. Those accursed modifiers again...

I know you will disagree with this.
You will say that No, "homeopathy" is defined as giving "a substance whose effects are known", and that cannot be the case if more than one is given at a time.

And I will reply that the clinical evidence *partly* contradicts that.

;-)

Re: The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:52 am
by John Harvey
Hi, Shannon --

The vexed question of whether clinical experience can replace pathogenetic trials is answerable by asking whether knowing what symptoms a medicine can cause to disappear (even in an entire cure) can tell us what symptoms it can cause.

Inherent in your suggestion is the assumption that it can. (If I've drawn that conclusion erroneously, please explain my error.)

Yet the assumption turns out to be not only entirely unfounded but also entirely wrong.

Every substance in common homoeopathic experience is capable of removing, in the course of genuine cure, symptoms that it has never caused and is never likely to.

A moment's reflection will confirm that.

Consider Sulphur and its many known symptoms; Thuja; Phosphorus; Mercurius; even Natrum mur. and Silicea; and the many additional symptoms each has nevertheless cured in any single case of any complexity.

Think of the effectiveness of antidotes!

Take account of the clinical superiority of Mercurius solubilis to Mercurius vivus despite their, so far, indistinguishable pathogeneses.

And, finally and most obviously, consider the effectiveness of homoeopathic medicines in removing the complicated and sometimes independent effects of various kinds of trauma -- trauma that (with rare exception, for instance Phosphorus and Causticum, in their ability to cause what we'd recognise as burns) they are wholly incapable of causing.

For these reasons alone, even genuine cures do not and cannot contribute the least information to our pathogenetic knowledge, except in their elicitation of incidental symptoms.

Even if they could, we'd be utter fools to rely on it: the ability to judge with certainty whether a patient is undergoing a curative process as opposed to any of 20 other kinds of response is itself an art that is sadly beyond the capabilities of all but the most discriminating and conscientious observers. There are even, if you can believe it, homoeopathic practitioners on this very list who have made the mistake of judging a young child to have been genuinely cured of an ear infection on the basis that the effect of the child's prescription of penicillin was that the discharge had vanished like magic; the child was free of pain; her emotional state and complexion had returned to the pink; and she was bouncing around again.

(In addition, one thing that you'll notice if you pay any attention is that those observers are -- for very good reason -- never the same prescribers who resort to using more than one medicine at a time! So their ability to use pathogenetic knowledge to its fullest advantage is entirely uncompromised by any dabbling in polypharmacy, and they are able therefore to use the homoeopathic principle you've accurately summed up as "like cures like".)

The broader question of whether polypharmacy can be done upon the same basis of "like cures like" is one that it seems to me should never have required much thought, let alone argument. When you simply don't know, because you simply can't know, the combined (pathogenetic) effects of two or more substances (administered together or administered separately), then it is, without dabbling in magic or presumption, impossible, isn't it, to prescribe them upon the basis of such knowledge?

The piddling around with mixtures that you suggest is a "kind" of homoeopathy is based on zero pathogenetic knowledge and an unfounded presumption that what a mixture "cures" in one patient tells us what it will cure in another. That is not, and can never be, any "kind" of homoeopathy, for the practical reasons given above. It is instead merely prescription on the basis of tradition. When you're using harmless plants in this way, it may be called herbalism; but the practice in its broadest sense has the accurate name of allopathy, because there is no known relationship between the positive (primary, pathogenetic) effects of the mixtures in use and the symptoms of the patient. Such a relationship is merely imaginary: invented in the minds of those who would like to be able to so dabble in the name of homoeopathy.

So for the umpteenth time I've demonstrated that it is not merely Hahnemann's capricious, shortsighted, arbitrary opinion that excludes polypharmacy from homoeopathy; it is rather the core of homoeopathy itself that precludes it, since that core requires absolutely a knowledge of pathogenesis irreplaceable by traditional knowledge, folklore, clinical "experience", guesswork, presumption, and convenience. Yes, it does mean restricting prescriptions to one medicine known well enough to assure similarity. Is that a loss? No; it's only a gain. We have many more medicines available to us anyway than we have troubled ourselves to prove adequately; we even have, today, many more of them proven adequately than Hahnemann had. Even that information upon which we rely absolutely, the pathogenetic descriptions, is inherently unreliable enough to give us trouble. In staying away from polypharmacy, the one thing we lose is the one thing we need to lose: uncertainty.

Crackpots will always devise "new" and "original" theories to justify polypharmacy -- more than one disease; one disease comprising a complex of lesser diseases; one disease and one process of reduced vitality that, despite not being a disease, indicates a remedy; and on and on -- anything at all to allow the practice to thieve credence in the name of homoeopathy. But when it's brought back to the simple question of what distinguishes homoeopathy from all else, we invariably find that the crackpot theories don't meet the requirement. They're just excuses; they're mighty flimsy ones at that; and they actually obstruct homoeopathic prescription by diverting the practitioner's attention from the vital matter of pathogenetic effects.

Kind regards,

John

Re: The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:20 am
by Vera Resnick
Sorry Shannon, I tried to keep myself away from this thread as for the life of me I cannot see what purpose it serves, but all the "partly" and "pretty much" reminds me about the famed pregnancy comment. One cannot be "partly" or "pretty much" pregnant. Either it is homoeopathy or it isn't. Polypharmacy isn't. Anything that doesn't work based on the principle of like cures like isn't. No long discussions between you and John will change this. QED.

Vera

------------------------------------
Vera Resnick IHM DHom Med (Lic)
Homoeopath
054-4640736
e-mail: vera.homeopath@gmail.com

Re: The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:20 am
by John Harvey
I wish I'd thought to say just that!

Thank you, Vera.

John

Re: The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:35 pm
by Soroush Ebrahimi
Dear Shannon
Under no circumstances can polypharmacy of potentised remedies could even be called " a type of" homeopathy.
Reasons:

Hn experimented and rejected it.
The aim of homeopathic treatment is to select THE SIMILIMUM which by definition is a singular!
There is no basis of selection of polyphamacy on totality of symptoms because the combo has not be proved?
There is no good symptom similarity?
Apart from that, on a 'scientific basis', what do you do as follow up? Repeat the complex if it shown some improvement?
Would your improvement be leading to cure or suppression?

How would you know?
Rgds

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shannon Nelson
Sent: 12 January 2012 00:05
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]
Cute, John!

Briefly, I think it is again back to the distinction between "homeopathy as a healing principle" (pretty much like-cures-like) and "homeopathy as a method.
Two somewhat separate meanings.

Polypharmacy certainly partakes of the "healing principle", so in that respect it can reasonably be called ("a type of") "homeopathy."
But it was specifically proscribed by Hahnemann, so it cannot be considered part of Hahnemannian (or classical) homeopathy. Those accursed modifiers again...
I know you will disagree with this.

You will say that No, "homeopathy" is defined as giving "a substance whose effects are known", and that cannot be the case if more than one is given at a time.
And I will reply that the clinical evidence *partly* contradicts that.
;-)
In discussing homoeopathy's meaning, the meaning of meaning itself and its relationship to definition have come into question, with confusion persisting in some quarters (for at least five years now) between definition andacceptability.
It's my hope that in making this discussion more personal and thus more concrete, we can clarify that defence of meaning is not rejection of anything other than an attack on meaning.
So I'm going to tackle the question of the meaning of John Harvey.
The analogy I'm going to use is imperfect: it concerns identification rather than definition. Still, I think it will make the point sufficiently well.
When it comes to things with proper names, often there is more than one of them with the same name. (Hence middle names.) To get that out of the way, I'm going to discuss the John Harvey writing this argument and suppose that he's a human being.
In defining the identity of human beings and other sentient animals, we tend to use "who" (and "whom") rather than "it", "what", and "that"; it doesn't much affect what we're doing here, though.
The John Harvey writing this argument is (let us assume) a male human being, loving father of two, living in Australia, and a homoeopath.
Accurate or not, that describes the John Harvey writing this argument. But does it identify him? Could there be two such?
Of course there could be. So, although it describes him, it does not identify him.
The John Harvey writing this argument is the human being born on the side of the Busselton Highway, four to six kilometres north of Busselton, at 2:37 to 2:38 p.m. on 12 January 1932, in the back of the station wagon bearing Western Australian registration plate number 80.
Accurate or not, that describes him too. Does it identify which person we're talking about? Could there be two human beings meeting that description? Most definitely there could not. Tying his birth to the registration number alone most likely identifies a unique human being. Adding the time makes it a certainty; there was only one baby born in the car at that time. So -- yes, it (correctly or incorrectly) identifies who the author is.
The John Harvey writing this argument used to be a nice man. Now he's nasty. He used to dance; now he ducks and weaves. And, once flexible and helpful, now he's downright ornery.
This illustrates that the author has adopted new characteristics and lost old ones. But, according to our notions of the identity of a person -- of which human being he is -- do these changes mean that the writer of this argument is no longer the person born in station wagon 80?
No, they don't. Although they may reflect changes in how he approaches life or whether his old friends still respect him, they don't change who (or what) he is. They don't change the identification of which human being it is who is the John Harvey writing this piece. They don't change the fact being stated: that the author of this piece is the person whose mother named him, after birth on the Busselton Highway, "John Harvey".
All clear so far?
Now, suppose John Harvey (the author of this piece) meets a far better human being, one whose heart is filled with kindness, whose actions inspire, whose very presence is ennobling, and that he consequently sees the error of his ways, sheds his ignoble traits, and becomes a saint.
The John Harvey I used to know is gone, and in his place is a saint. He is an entirely different person.
This sounds like a new identity: John Harvey used to be one person and now is another. But is it? Is it the case that the author of this piece, now a new man and a saint, is no longer the human being born in station wagon 80?
No, it is not the case. Though characteristics of John Harvey have changed, what he is -- the very stuff that tells us that this human being is the human being we mean, the one born in station wagon 80 -- has not. His nature may have altered, but his true identity simply cannot.
Now, let's suppose that we learn that there has been a mixup. We learn that the John Harvey writing this piece isnot the human being born in station wagon 80 at all; that that John Harvey passed away peacefully at the age of 75 in 2007; and that the "John Harvey" writing this piece is a virtual memebot sent back to the year 2004 from the year 2262 for a lark, in order to insult polypaths on homoeopathy lists and give them a taste of their own medicine.
The John Harvey writing this argument is a sentient memebot originating in 2262.
With our newfound knowledge, does the above identify John Harvey? Well, it's hard to say, but there are probably several million sentient memebots due for manufacture in 2262; so it probably does not sufficiently identify him.
The John Harvey writing this argument is the memebot originating in 2262 and writing in 2011 and 2012 on the Minutus and Homeopathy e-mail lists under the names John Harvey, Rik Shannon, and Shannon Nelson.
Correct or not, does this adequately identify exactly what the author of this argument is? Obviously it does: there isnot more than one membot writing under all those names. (Of course, there may be no such memebot. In that case, this identification would be -- wrongly, obviously -- identifying John Harvey as something that does not exist.)
The John Harvey writing this argument is a memebot from 2262 due for maintenance recall in 2014.
Correct or not, does that identify the author? Again: no, if more than one memebot from 2262 is due for maintenance recall in 2014.
So, although it may be a true and accurate description to say that (this) John Harvey is nothing but a memebot, accuracy of the description does not tie down the meaning of the term definitely and unambiguously, and therefore does not identify him. When we have (this) "John Harvey" uniquely defined -- by distinguishing him from all else -- then and only then have we sufficiently encompassed the meaning of the term.
Of course, we could define (this) "John Harvey" in other terms -- for instance:
The John Harvey writing this piece is the sentient memebot of (hexadecimal) serial number 2262 EEAE 0114.
Because the serial number is unique, it uniquely identifies what it is that the author of this piece is.
So when you look up that serial number, you find that it is indeed the memebot writing under the names John Harvey, Rick Shannon, and Shannon Nelson -- and perhaps learn much else about him. (Sentient memebots too are pronouned "who" and "whom", by the way, for the same reasons for which human beings are.)
The two identifications -- the one that mentions 2004 and some noms de plume, and one that mentions a serial number -- look very different. In fact, though, it is easy, as you can see, to show that they identify the author as exactly the same thing: this memebot and no other. (In just the same way, we may identify ourselves using out driver's licence or by using a birth certificate or passport.)
When somebody with the authority to do so (i.e., the person inventing it) defines the meaning of a term, if he has done so correctly, the meaning is sufficiently clear that it incorporates all that he intended and distinguishes all elsefrom it.
There are three ways to make a mistake in defining what you mean.
If, in attempting to represent what was intended, the definition is too broad, then it will inadvertently include other things the author intended it to include and cause confusion between those accidentally included things and what heintended.
If it is too narrow, it will inadvertently exclude things its author intended it to include. This may not matter: when one intends to refer to both the defined thing and some other thing, one can use two names. Or one can create a new term defined as incorporating both.
If it is too vague, it may not make clear at all which things it includes and which it does not.
So one can make a mistake and accidentally define the word as something other than the thing one intended. But there is one kind of error that one cannot make in creating the definition of a word: the error of being wrong.
This is where definition parts company at times from identification.
In identifying the author of this piece as being memebot 2262 EEAE 0114, it is possible to be wrong. That's because what we're doing in the process of identification is making an indicative statement of fact concerning the identity of one thing with another, a statement arising from discovery. We may "discover" something today only to learn tomorrow that we were wrong.
This is a little different, though, from naming John Harvey. If the human being born in station wagon 80 between 2:37 and 2:38 p.m. on 12 January 1932 was formally given the name (defined as) John Harvey, then that's who John Harvey is, and it can't be wrong. And if the John Harvey writing this piece is that John Harvey, then he is also the human being born in those circumstances, and that cannot be wrong.
Let me say this in a different way. In naming the baby born in station wagon 80 "John Harvey", the baby's mother could not be wrong. Ever. John Harvey is that baby.
Definition is like that: it can't be wrong. It is what it is. It means what it means.
We may wish that there were more of John Harvey, or less of him; bad luck. We may wish that homoeopathy included more than it does, or less; bad luck. It includes what it includes and nothing else.
So: what does it include? Hahnemann made that clear. It includes administration, to a patient whose illness is known in detail, of a single, simple medicinal substance upon the basis that the similarity of its effects known in detail and with certainty to the totality of the patient's illness symptoms is the greatest that the practitioner can discern amongst the candidate substances available.
What does it exclude? Everything else!
Actually, even the above definition is overly careful. We could remove the words "single, simple" and leave it entirely unchanged, simply because the rest of the definition entails "single, simple" anyway. We could specify that the knowledge of the effects of the medicine on the healthy must be obtained not by observing their "curative" effects but by observing their deranging ones; but again it is unnecessary to do so, as that is implicit in the term "deranging effects known in detail and with certainty".
And of course we can use different phrasing to express the same thing, just as we can use either serial number or something else to arrive at the same sentient memebot as the identity of the author of this argument.
In what ways does the definition confine homoeopathic practice? It requires case-taking; knowledge of pathogenesis; comparison; and administration. But it does not necessarily require pencils, computers, or even books; it does not exclude consultation with other professionals or repeat consultations with the patient; it does not prevent the institution of new pathogenetic trials, new protocols, new medicines, or fresh recognition of the nature of symptoms or signs; it forestalls no new research. It in fact permits any new techniques that allow fulfilment of the single principle it expresses: that medicine be used upon the law of similars (necessitating knowledge both of patient and of medicinal effect).
But by the same token, the definition does exclude every practice that is not homoeopathy: all the practices that fail to meet the criterion that they use pathogenetic similarity to the patient's illness as the sole reason for the prescription.
So, you see, when you boil it all down, it's very, very simple. There's homoeopathy, and there's everything else. It's not a judgement; it's not rejection of other practices; it's just the simple fact.
When we practise homoeopathy, of course, we complement it with common sense, guesswork, and blind courage, as otherwise our lack of total certainty might prevent us from prescribing any medicine; and we use complementary techniques to ensure its success: dietetics, kindness, exclusion of morbific influences, sufficient exercise stress to maintain the organism's fitness, etc. If you once begin to imagine that these complementary techniques are part of what homoeopathy is, you instantly lose your understanding of what it is. These other things help; they may even be wholly necessary to the patient's gentle, prompt, permanent recovery; they are not, however, homoeopathy.
Cheers --
John
--
"Do pertussis vaccines prevent children and adults from breathing in pertussis bacteria from the air? No. Do children vaccinated with the pertussis vaccine somehow stop carrying pertussis bacteria in their airways simply because they've been vaccinated? No. Do pertussis vaccines stop vaccinated children from transmitting the pertussis bacteria to other people? No. Do pertussis bacteria disappear from society once vaccination rates are high? No.
"Vaccination rates for pertussis have no impact on whether the pertussis bacteria are in the air or not, or whether or not we breathe them in. The presence of the pertussis bacteria, and the exposure to them, are in no way affected by vaccination status or vaccination rates."
—Lawrence B. Palevsky, M.D., "False alarm over pertussis 'outbreak': a letter from Lawrence B. Palevsky, December 2011", >

Re: The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:25 pm
by John Harvey
Hi, Soroush --

Much as I agree with everything you've said here, it's useful to remember that those pushing polypharmacy always fling out the "Oh, so it's only because Hahnemann said you can't, and he would eventually have realised the truth" rabbit, and that, by feeding that rabbit, you distract them utterly from the real reasons: the ones you suggested after feeding the rabbit. If Hahnemann had stated that it is possible to make a polypharmaceutical prescription homoeopathically, he would -- in light of his own definition of what homoeopathy is -- have been catastrophically and irrefutably wrong. So his statement that it is not possible is, in some senses, neither here nor there but simply icing on the cake.

What matters in regard to whether it is possible to do something within homoeopathy is not what Hahnemann said to do or not to do; not even whether he said (on the basis of experiment or otherwise) it would be possible or impossible. What matters in this regard is that we understand the single, simple thing he meant by the word homoeopathy -- and all its implications will simply follow.

Once we have that absolutely simple thing firmly understood, everything else falls into place anyway. All that the homoeomixy apologists seek with the confused and contradictory arguments they present is to keep distracting homoeopaths from that simple crucial point of difference between homoeopathy and everything else; arguing who approved what offers a suitable way of maintaining the distraction. Notice that they never have anything of relevance to answer to the challenge of what stable known pathogenesis has ever been at the basis of any polypathic prescription. Your questions, though, being relevant to that, may well drive home the point that homoeopolymixy actually has no basis whatever.

Kind regards,

John
--
"Do pertussis vaccines prevent children and adults from breathing in pertussis bacteria from the air? No. Do children vaccinated with the pertussis vaccine somehow stop carrying pertussis bacteria in their airways simply because they've been vaccinated? No. Do pertussis vaccines stop vaccinated children from transmitting the pertussis bacteria to other people? No. Do pertussis bacteria disappear from society once vaccination rates are high? No.
"Vaccination rates for pertussis have no impact on whether the pertussis bacteria are in the air or not, or whether or not we breathe them in. The presence of the pertussis bacteria, and the exposure to them, are in no way affected by vaccination status or vaccination rates."
—Lawrence B. Palevsky, M.D., "False alarm over pertussis 'outbreak': a letter from Lawrence B. Palevsky, December 2011",

Re: The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:18 pm
by Soroush Ebrahimi
Thanks John
Based on what you have written, I have thought of the a good name for it. As they mix potentised substances, it should therefore be called potenomixy! :-))
Regular contributors - I think we have discussed potenomixy many times before on Minutus - therefore I do not think there is any further point in wasting members' valuable time on this subject.
Rgds

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Harvey
Sent: 12 January 2012 13:26
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]
Hi, Soroush --
Much as I agree with everything you've said here, it's useful to remember that those pushing polypharmacy always fling out the "Oh, so it's only because Hahnemann said you can't, and he would eventually have realised the truth" rabbit, and that, by feeding that rabbit, you distract them utterly from the real reasons: the ones you suggested after feeding the rabbit. If Hahnemann had stated that it is possible to make a polypharmaceutical prescription homoeopathically, he would -- in light of his own definition of what homoeopathy is -- have been catastrophically and irrefutably wrong. So his statement that it is not possible is, in some senses, neither here nor there but simply icing on the cake.
What matters in regard to whether it is possible to do something within homoeopathy is not what Hahnemann said to do or not to do; not even whether he said (on the basis of experiment or otherwise) it would be possible or impossible. What matters in this regard is that we understand the single, simple thing he meant by the word homoeopathy -- and all its implications will simply follow.
Once we have that absolutely simple thing firmly understood, everything else falls into place anyway. All that the homoeomixy apologists seek with the confused and contradictory arguments they present is to keep distracting homoeopaths from that simple crucial point of difference between homoeopathy and everything else; arguing who approved what offers a suitable way of maintaining the distraction. Notice that they never have anything of relevance to answer to the challenge of what stable known pathogenesis has ever been at the basis of any polypathic prescription. Your questions, though, being relevant to that, may well drive home the point that homoeopolymixy actually has no basis whatever.
Kind regards,
John
Dear Shannon
Under no circumstances can polypharmacy of potentised remedies could even be called " a type of" homeopathy.
Reasons:

Hn experimented and rejected it.
The aim of homeopathic treatment is to select THE SIMILIMUM which by definition is a singular!
There is no basis of selection of polyphamacy on totality of symptoms because the combo has not be proved?
There is no good symptom similarity?
Apart from that, on a 'scientific basis', what do you do as follow up? Repeat the complex if it shown some improvement?
Would your improvement be leading to cure or suppression?

How would you know?
Rgds

Soroush
--
"Do pertussis vaccines prevent children and adults from breathing in pertussis bacteria from the air? No. Do children vaccinated with the pertussis vaccine somehow stop carrying pertussis bacteria in their airways simply because they've been vaccinated? No. Do pertussis vaccines stop vaccinated children from transmitting the pertussis bacteria to other people? No. Do pertussis bacteria disappear from society once vaccination rates are high? No.
"Vaccination rates for pertussis have no impact on whether the pertussis bacteria are in the air or not, or whether or not we breathe them in. The presence of the pertussis bacteria, and the exposure to them, are in no way affected by vaccination status or vaccination rates."
—Lawrence B. Palevsky, M.D., "False alarm over pertussis 'outbreak': a letter from Lawrence B. Palevsky, December 2011",

Re: The meaning of John Harvey [was: Ducking]

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:01 pm
by John Harvey
That's a great name!

Cheers --

John