Minutus

Hi Liz and Rochelle.
I wrote a long article in HIP on this subject because I felt there was much confusion. I can make it available on request but basically I interviewed John Morgan, John Lee (then at Ainsworths) and John Eiles from Galens and several people who teach use of mts and yes- there was confusion.
Basically, the German Pharmocopeia tends to have tinctures of 1 in 3 (depends on herb of course to some extent) and the French follows protocols which end up with 1 in 10. Helios and Ainsworths both have opted to follow the German - I think because they felt it was closer to the original. Both are legally acceptable for something to be called homeopathic and this is a matter of law in the UK, at least. Both buy in MTs. The only pharmacy of the 3 that seemed to make their own was Galens which end up with approx 1 in 7, but they are a local pharmacy and, I believe, not bound by law in quite the same way. I think they may use dried herbs as well, whereas Helios and Ainsworths buy in products made with fresh herbs as far as possible (not always). The formulae are very complicated as herbs contribute different levels of their own liquid to their solutions. The law dictates organic products for homeopaths but not for herbalists as yet (unless that has changed since I wrote the article). It was coming for herbalists, though, even then and many pharmacies were ahead of the game. Herbal dilutions can range from 1 in 1 to 1 in 6 depending on the herb and method of extraction. Where recommended dilutions are greater eg Bryonia, they sometimes suggest getting it from a homeopathic pharmacy (where it would be at a higher dilution), due to toxicity and likelihood of it being bought by a non professional. I.e. it is sometimes possible to buy something from a homeopathic pharmaciy that is not readily available from a herbalist any more.
So.....people buying homeopathic mts from a uk pharmacy might well be buying a stronger product than one available as a tincture (as opposed to extract) from a herbal pharmacy, and they might be buying something that has gone out of fashion with herbalists due to potential toxicity and a desire to cover their backs. This was not reflected in advice given to students by any of the UK lecturers!
I think one problem was that the shift to the German Pharmacopeia didn't get much of a fanfare and dilutions are not written on bottles. What may have been the case 20 years ago is not necessarily the case now. Incidentally, I use the expressin 1 in 'whatever' advisedly - it is not a ratio.
Another interesting thing was that Hahnemann himself, as far as I could make out, seemed to prefer trituration for herbs rather than maceration but this seems to have fallen by the way side. I didn't go into that aspect so much, however, and would be interested if anyone could add to that information.
Theresa
Rochelle wrote:
I got in touch with John Morgan once at Helios on this very question. A MT at Helios is a 1x so basically if you take your much cheaper herbal tincture and dilute it by 9 you have got the same thing. Since if I give a herbal tincture to someone as an organ support e.g. crateagus I always say put in a little water so wants the difference!! I can buy 1/2 litre of most herbal tinctures for not much more than 10ml MT!! I don't do this very often but recently Chelidonium HT (6 drops tds in water) got rid of all the indigestion which went to the right scapula and didn't interfere with the constitutional Rx I was giving the patient. In fact it was that Rx which brought out the problem which obviously called for the liver support.

Rochelle

Rochelle
Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

Thanks Theresa but you didn't touch on the fact that I was told that the MT was a 1x. I presume this is 1x of the herbal tincture i.e. they have taken the herbal tincture and diluted 1 part with 9 alcohol and succussed!! The herbal tinctures I buy are mostly 1:3 although they have been trying to get all of them at a standard 1:5 for consistency. I buy fresh when I can but many are made from the dry herb.
BTW - I am sure we had this discussion a few years back at about the time you wrote your article. I can't remember the outcome though
Rochelle
Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

Hi Rochelle
An MT is an MT - it is not 1x. When you buy from a hom pharmacy you are buying an MT, not a 1x unless you ask for it or it is unavailable in MT in which case you would be told. In France it would be a 1 in 10 MT but not a 1x until the MT from whatever source had been succussed and further diluted 1:9. It does make for huge variation in strength of the 1x depending on what pharmocopeia you use to make the MT. I found it really odd that we use 2 so different pharmacopeia and, as I said, neither of them doing actually what H recommended as far as I can make out.
I could be mistaken about whether the French further dilute and succuss to get the 1x but am basing my opinion on what I was told. John Lee used to be on this list - I wonder if he still lurks under some alias or other.... Anyway, it is not that pharmacopeia that our major pharmacies use.
Theresa

I agree and I also thought an MT was an MT until I phoned Helios!! So we go back to what is the difference between an MT and an HT!! A pharmacopeia is used by both to make up the tinctures.
Rochelle
Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

Hi Theresa
I'm now totally confused!! I was taught at college that homeopathic tinctures were stronger than herbal ones, and therefore to dose in drops rather than teaspoons or mls. Now I'm not sure what the difference is.
I would very much like to read your article, if it's not too much trouble.
Thanks!
Liz

Hi,
In the USA a MT is = 1x (as Julian winston wrote in this list).
In France - MT is the base and only after diluting it 1:10 + succussing it - you then get 1x.
So, as I understand it if I want an (European) 3x of a plant from a pharmactythe USA - I think I have to order the 4x.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards
Rafy

Hi - it's not really confusing...just a bit surprising! A tincture is a product of plant and solvent (e.g calendula +vodka) . How strong it is is a matter of the formula and varies from pharmacy to pharmacy. In the interests of standardisation various pharmacopeia have been created. There is no obligation to stick to them for herbalists except that practitioners like to know how strong something is. Herbalists will further dilute or mix these depending on what they are, or not in some cases. We have our own pharmacopeia with our own rules but we still end up with tinctures. We only call them mother tinctures because generally we use them as a base for the creation of potentised diluted remedies (first step 1c or 1x) and using succussion. The only difference between a herbal tincture and our mother tincture is one of recipe. That might be a big difference if different parts of the plant are used or might not. To find out for sure you would have to compare recipes. Whether live organic plants are used might be a difference as well.
Generally the strengths of our mts are stronger than herbal tinctures unless they are particularly strong (look at the label). Mostly the mts we use are ones that have a herbal usage (the others just stay in the cupboard at helios waiting for a new round of potentisation and dilution to be needed) and generally (not always) the usage is the same. Sometimes herbalists only use 1 drop of a tincture sometimes much more. Traditionally we only go up to 20 a day max.even with low toxicity stuff like Crataegus. Sometimes we should use much less than that or we are going where herbalists fear to tread! However, those are the MTs that might be harder to lay our hands onl
French MTs that they base their potentised remedies on are much 'weaker' in molecular terms although by the time they are further diluted and potentised i wonder what practical difference it makes.
The use of the word mother is a homeopathic one I believe but they are only different from herbal in recipe basically.
Commenting on Liz's email: the reason that we use more diluted tinctures is because that is what we do, what Hahnemann started off doing. Less is more and so on. There are just a very few cases where the homeopathic standard dosages are the same or more than the herbal because of the toxicity of the plant. I felt people should be aware of these cases rather than following Boericke blindly. Some of his prescriptions are pretty dangerous...Not many.
If your college pointed out that hom tinctures are often stronger than herbal then good for them. Most at the time were telling people that if in doubt they could use hom tinctures because they were weaker! However, my article was some years ago and I imagine the teaching may have been modified since it appeared. If it hasn't I really do despair! Will send article privately.
Theresa
Rochelle wrote
agree and I also thought an MT was an MT until I phoned Helios!! So we go back to what is the difference between an MT and an HT!! A pharmacopeia is used by both to make up the tinctures.

Rochelle
Registered Homeopath
EFT(Advanced) Practitioner
www.southporthomeopathy.co.uk

Thanks for all that detail in your answer, Theresa. I would be grateful for that article.
Liz

Hello Rafy,
So as I thought (but was not totally sure) the French further dilute their 1 in 10 tinctures and succuss to get a 1x. Makes sense. However, don't confuse French with European. Most people in the UK and presumably Germany will be using a different, stronger, MT to start off with.
Also, if American MTs are already potentised at 1x one wonders why they are called MTs *and* surely the conversion from French to American would be the other way round anyway. If US are further diluted from the French to start with then the 3x American would be equivalent of 4x French. Think about it.
Heaven knows what the relationship to German/UK tinctures would be!!
Theresa
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "HomeoDidact" wrote:

Hi Theresa,
I meant that bthe Americans take the MT (wich is sometimes a poison like Strophanthus!) and *call* it (wrongly in my opinion) 1x !!!
Rafy