Minutus

Dear Soroush

I think you should turn off the feature of allowing members to see the members list for the sake of privacy of the members as this feature can be used to send private emails to those not posting.

Irene is right about automated reactivation notices but since there are now just too many yahoo groups and lists, sometimes it does not reach members.

In smaller lists you could send reactivation notices manually and then remove their names if they do not respond but this list has too many bouncing members so another way is to remove all and those who want to rejoin may then do so.

Also about those who unsubscribe. This happens all the time on many lists whenever there is activity. Some members finds it clutters their email and just want out wthout realising that there are other options like reading mails off the webpage.

I am answering this online without using my acount but directly on my yahoo groups web pag.

regards

Suriya
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Irene de Villiers wrote:

Dear Soroush

I think you should turn off the feature of allowing members to see the members list for the sake of privacy of the members as this feature can be used to send private emails to those not posting.

Irene is right about automated reactivation notices but since there are now just too many yahoo groups and lists, sometimes it does not reach members.

In smaller lists you could send reactivation notices manually and then remove their names if they do not respond but this list has too many bouncing members so another way is to remove all and those who want to rejoin may then do so.

Also about those who unsubscribe. This happens all the time on many lists whenever there is activity. Some members finds it clutters their email and just want out wthout realising that there are other options like reading mails off the webpage.

I am answering this online without using my acount but directly on my yahoo groups web pag.

regards

Suriya
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Irene de Villiers wrote:

But at least several of these recent unsubs have specifically said that
it was because of the nastiness. And several long-time members have
also considered leaving, very specifically because of the nastiness.
While it would be nice to think there was nothing unusual going on,
it's not the case... But--I'm grateful and relieved that Soroush is
stating a clear intention of returning civility to the
proceedings--I'll drink to that! (whew...)

Best wishes,
Shannon

Dear Suriya,

Turning off the member list view does not achieve that. Nor does the
member list show any addresses to use anyway! They are displayed
"munged" by Yahoo. Only the owner/moderator can see an entire email
addresses in any list's member list. Regular members see a small part
of the email address only, so can not use the member list to send
private emails:-)

The member list is nice to have readable - it is a great pity when
someone hides it for no reason or for this mitaken reason.
It is useful to show how many members, who is owner or moderator,
whether a friend already belongs or you want to invite them, and
other relevant information. But it dos NOT give any full email
address to a normal member.

Yahoo did that quite a long time ago so spammers can not just join a
list and get all the email addresses.
But they leave them visible to owners as owners MAY need to send
private emails.

Sending private emails to others is not within Yahoo terms of service
so if someone is sending unwanted emails I am sure the list owner/
moderator will take care of it if told - else Yahoo will if a Yahoo
TOS violation is reported there.

On individual emails the headers show the full "from" address. But
not in the member list.
I'm not sure what you mean?
The reactivation is sent on a regular basis and is like any list
email "probe" - to see if the address is "available" with a
programmed response at Yahoo depending whether it "pings" or not.
It has nothing to do with how many yahoo members there are - they all
get reactivations as needed.
Yahoo has several current "bugs" (as a list owner will know if they
belong to ListHelp or ModeraorCenttral) but the reactivation is not
one of them.
Why?
Any member will rightly be most irritated to be removed and have to
rejoin just because someone wants to waste time playing with the
bounce lists - we KNOW those are invalid to determine email validity
or activity!
Most members so removed will NOT re-join as they will assume there
was some reason they were removed and they will look for another list
that seems to accept them. With respect this is not a good idea -
leave the member list and the bounce list alone. They are fine. They
are both doing what they are designed to do, and not doing anything
else or anything "bad".
I agree.
In addition some people will decide the lack of good manners and/or
the way people's words are twisted into something they did not say
(as has been happening as lot) - is just not for them.
Each list enforces certain rules and no list can suit all the people
all the time:-)

As homeopaohty lists go, Minutus is very large, and that makes it
subjet to more chajnges than a small oel It also makes it more lkely
to survive changes.

I would be more concerned about trends.
If the gentle people leave due to volatility that is encouraged (by
permitting it in the first place) - then you get a list with more and
more volatile people, more rudeness, more twisting of words - as that
is all seen as acceptable here. (It is not on most lists). So the
you will get more and more of this and hte TREND will be to encouage
this. If on the other hand there is a firm hand to moderate anyone so
behaving - at least until they learn to be civil - that will
encourage more members of the kind who will be involved in good
discussion. That is the other way a trend can go.

It is the list owner/moderator who chooses what kind of list to have
by managing this trend one way or the other.
It's their unique and sole prerogative.

Personally I am disappointed as a member - that there has not been
any moderation of rudeness, twisted words, etc - the bad behavior
here. When that is the case - people who prefer an environment of
mutual respect, will either stop posting or leave. Asking for respect
is one thing; enforcing it is another. We had the first - often - but
not the second. It needs both to change the trend and attract people
who can enjoy a discussion without getting what they say twisted up,
or being attacked for saying it.

Helen expressed it so well today here:
Quote:
One can engage vigorously in intellectual and scientific debate without
being uncivil.

One can attack ideas without attacking the person advocating the
idea. For
example, you can say, "The idea you are advocating is downright
dangerous,"
instead of "You are endangering the lives of your patients, you
unethical
quack!" Or, you can say, "I find it this type of reasoning
hypocritical," instead of "You are downright hypocritical, judging me
while
exempting yourself."

It isn't what is said as much as HOW it is said. Applying a few simple
communication skills makes the difference between debate and malice.
Unquote.

Thanks Helen! It was such a breath of fresh air!

What Soroush said was also great:

Quote:My dear old departed mother (may God bless her soul and give me
more of her wisdom) used to say the final physical effect of:
a- Kindly take a seat
b- SIT and
c- Get your a-s- down
is the same, however the emotional effect on the addressee varies
greatly with each case as I trust you can appreciate.
Unquote.

But all the good ideas are ignored by those who are the perpetrators.
If they were moderated, it could/would change things. That is why
Yahoo invented moderation, to help owners to manage well.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Dear Irene

Do you see the 'send message' notice on every member name?
You can send a message even without the full email.

regards

Suriya

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Irene de Villiers wrote:

Dear Suriya,
You can send a message to another member any time with or without the
member list
It is not the member list that determines whether you can see or use
another member's address.
I can see your full email address right here from your email, as
you can see mine, without even going on line to the group site, much
less to the member list.

The member list has other functions which are missing if you block it
or hide it.
So I only wanted to point out that hiding the member list does not
hide anyone's email address from other members, nor make it
impossible to email another list member.
It just makes the list very unfriendly indeed. Surely we do not need
that? The more we know about other members the better the group
works,. The more you hide who is there the worse things are, it is
way too impersonal.
The fact of joining a group is supposed to mean it is a group, not a
blindfolded person talking into the darkness:-)
Surely, the point of a discussion group is to have approved people
together who get to know each other and only exclude non-members,
not to hide members from each other. Do you not find it extremely
uncomfortable to be blindfolded at a discussion you attend somewhere,
so you can not see who else is there that you are talking to?
Or if someone yo know is there? etc? Or who is the host?
That is all the member list does, and hiding it blindfolds people-
very uncomfortable - and nothing to do with preventing email between
members.

You can send email to another member form anywhere within the group -
or from any delivered email....eg from the messages archive you can
send email or from the member list or from an individual email.
So blocking the member list does nothing to prevent sending email.
You just can no longer collect multiple email addresses (to send
spam) as was the only reason to hide member lists years ago before
addresses were munged.

That reason is long gone.
Yes, you can do that in several ways, not just from the member list,
also from the archives and also from individual emails. (I never got
digests so am not sure if you can also send from there.)

The list is supposed to be the discussion venue, but sometimes off
list topics are agreed between members for further discussion. Nobody
is to send unwanted email off list.
Yahoo has the safeguard that if anyone does off list harassment, and
it is reported to Yahoo, then Yahoo will act fast to ban the person's
Yahoo access removing ALL access to all lists for the person breaking
the harassment rules.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I know very many quality homeopaths who would like to join but feel that the arguments against Hahnemannian render this list not worthwhile at present.

Cuts both ways.

Joy

http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/

Hi Irene,
This is a good thing!

Some posters in the past have suggested to send the "rude" emails as
pm's, in oder to keep them off the list.

This I think is contra-productive. This is what happened on Lyght
force. Jon was pretty strict about personal attacks on-list, but
refused to act on poisonous pm's. Since it is against netiquette to
post private emails - Merren Parker was kicked off the list for doing
that - the authors of such emails publicly remain nice people. At
least on minutus the readers have known who is writing what and can
judge the rest of their posts accordingly.
cut
It is also difficult for them. Quite often they agree with the content
of what the poster says and will rather have him/her say it rudely
than not at all; or they know the person and hesitate to do anything
to annoy them.
cut

I think that what I said above has been and is and probably will be
the case here.

But as you said - this is up to the list owner. We have to adjust -and
there are, after all, ways to do that - or leave

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
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