Minutus

I think this may be an interesting discussion - it involves what
happens when you have either same disease organism in different
species or different disease organisms and same species..... My
thoughts and experience here is triggered by Chris asking about URI
30C remedy regarding Aph 118 and likely takes an unexpected turn:

Firstly, Aph 118 says:
"Every medicine exhibits peculiar actions on the human frame, which
are not produced in exactly the same manner by any other medicinal
substance of a different kind.1
1 This fact was also perceived by the estimable A. v. Haller, who
says (Preface to his Hist. stirp. helv.): Latet immensa virium
diversitas in iis ipsis plantis, quarum facies externas dudum
novimus, animas quasi et quodcunque caelestius habent, nondum
perspeximus."

My opinion regarding 118 and URi 30C leads to the discussion that
follows:

I have not tried the URI 30C "on the human frame" but it clearly (as
in provings) produces *one* disease syndrome on the cat frame. This
to me makes it one medicine of one kind producing one disease for
cats (and I do not recommend it for humans), and in that way it is
different from other medicines of a different kind that produce
different diseases (as Hahnemann warns against in Aph 173).

Looking at Aph 118 above, URI 30C is unusual in this regard, as
its four disease causing components each produce the same symptoms
as the whole mix and it might be that Hahnemann just never happened
to observe such an unusual example as different organisms producing
the same symptoms in humans (nor do I know an example in humans). But
we see it more in animals, and Hahnemnan only claimed to apply his
EXAMPLES to people.

Had he had another 100 yrs or so of observation he might have seen
different examples in animals at least and he might have said
something..... who knows ... so I speak only for animals here which
is my area. In humans it may well be that every causative organism
produces only its own specific illness -at least so far.

But it just is not so in animals. In fact an odd thing is seen:

In animals the SAME organism will often produce DIFFERENT symptoms in
different species. But a few different organisms will often produce
the same symptoms in one species.

Examples:

A virus will sometimes "jump ship" to another species, either between
two animals or between an animal and human. There are lots of
examples. This has happened for feline Panleucopenia for example
which jumped to dogs as canine parvovirus. The same organism here has
different symptoms in cats and dogs. This nasty virus actually jumped
ship BACK to cats and causes symptoms in cats that resemble the
original panleucopenia in cats, only a lot more virulent and deadly,
but neither cat version resembles the disease in dogs at all. Now in
Homeopathy, we have to match the symptoms caused by the organism -
and they differ according to species.

What veterinary homeopaths are finding when using vaccine remedies is
that they work according to the organism and the disease it produces
and not according to species symptoms (which vary). In other words,
if the vaccine or the remedy made from it, produces a set of symptoms
in sheep and a different set of symptoms in cats, then the remedy
will work to prevent the sheep symptoms in sheep and the cat symptoms
in cats exactly according to the proving in each species. However if
you want to use the remedy in sheep which have symptoms cats would
get with the remedy - is it going to help sheep? According to
provings, no. In practice? Who knows? There is no Law of Similars to
induce us to try it?

There are many cases where this is relevant:

Bordetella bronchiseptica is another example. It can infect any
mammal species including man. Each species gets different symptoms
from it. In man it is "walking pneumonia", making the individual weak
while they may not know why. It also burns the lungs (destroying NO,
which can be helped wit high dose Alpha lipoic acid supplements in
ALL species as this lung alkali damage is common top all) . However
man does not seem to have the nerves to detect the burning sensation
in the lungs. Nor do sheep where it is a silent pneumonia till it
kills. Cats do feel the lungs burn after a month or so and will try
to cough out their sore lungs. [They look like they are hacking a
hairball but in the wrong body position and with no results]. Dogs
manage to keep the infection in the bronchial area, it does not get
deadly and go to the lungs. But they are irritated greatly from early
in the illness and in dogs it is less lethal and this is called
Kennel "Cough" for a reason.

Because the different species either perceive the SAME damage
from the SAME organism (which is genetically coded to do that
specific damage) differently, or because they resist its invasion
differently (eg dogs confining it to bronchii not lungs) - do we say
it is the same disease? Or do we say the symptoms differ thus by
homeopathy standards it is a different disease?

Aph 118 refers to human only, and does not answer that question.

The Blordetella bronchiseptica vaccine - used as a homeopathic
potentized remedy - will prevent the illness in any species as it
turns out - and when a proving is done - it produces the symptoms for
the relevant species in that species - cat ones in cats and sheep
ones in sheep etc.

This almost tosses a spanner in the works for our assumptions about
symptoms and remedies. We currently assume that if we prove the item
in humans the symptoms in animals will be the same. Yet the above and
other examples certainly prove that one remedy has DIFFERENT symptoms
in different species.

Is it then a huge asssumption that human-proved remedies apply to
other species?

What do we have to go on as vethoms?

My response is that in veterinary homeopathy we have to give clinical
cures HIGH precedence to verify any remedy in use - however well
proved it is (in humans). Vethoms have been doing this for
generations of vethoms of course. All of them know that one disease
is different in different species.

For example:

Cats are unable to eat most plants without being poisoned and can
digest none of them properly. (They lack the liver function by
design). Yet our plant remedies (in potency, so with toxicity diluted
out) seem to work just fine on cats. Each time this happens, it is a
cure added to the efficacy of that remedy in a new species.

We also can not use key symptoms of remedies is the same way in other
species as in humans - as there may be very different key symptoms if
only we had to provings to know it.

What holds true in practice and experience in vethom work, is that
human repertories ARE usable - but that it pays to pretend we do not
know the remedy pictures or key symptoms at all as that will bias
selection of a correct remedy away from it - where it really is the
right remedy.

I would like to see a central place where wethom cases arfe recorded
as there is enormlous knowledge to be gained from them. In the
meantime it is relevant to remember that rules for humans (even the
ones in the Organin) do not necessarily apply to animal work.

Animal work has some advantages to make up for this disadvantage: The
generation time in humans is mayeb 25 yrs, and the family production
per gestation is maybe 1 kid, maybe 2 or 3 per lifetime,

Compare with cats: Generation time of 1 year or less average 5
offspring per gestation, one per year for 10 years. This makes the
knowledge growth from CASES (of statistical significance) much easier
to obtain and much more significant in animal work.

It also makes the few remedies proven on various species (like
vaccinations) that much more "known" for the use of vethoms. This
species variation in response to the same substance, MAY require a
different approach in animal work with an emphasis on where there IS
good information, especially where case work can confirm a remedy for
a typical set of symptoms found in a particualr species.
I am NOT advocating we have separate veterinary repertories - just
the opposite. But I would like to stress the need to see things in
context (including veterinary context where appropriate) and to use
what information we have currently available, to do the best for our
veterinary clients that we can.

I believe that changes of technique for example, are needed in
veterinary work (like the approach to repertorizing mentioned).

Namaste,

Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Irene de Villiers wrote:
###### EXCUSE ME!!!! Parvovirus in dogs is NOT a natural viral disease! The origins of Parvo in dogs dates back to the 70s when a VACCINE MANUFACTURING COMPANY in Texas, lost control of studies being done on the panleucopenia virus for a NEW PANLEUCOPENIA vaccine. Parvo virus disease in dogs is a MAN MADE DISEASE! So your example does not only not apply to the Aphorism in question, it doesn't even apply to the facts of the example you are trying to manipulate into your theory.

It is also not true that in Homeopathy whether animal or human, we "have to match the symptoms caused by the organism". Hahnemann clearly explained the difference between the COMMON symptoms of the DISEASE and the unusual, rare and individual symptoms of the PATIENT. It is those rare and unusual symptoms of the PATIENT that a good Homeopathic prescription is made and the species of the patient is not relevant.

What veterinary homeopaths are doing way too often, is practicing cookbook Homeopathy. They are not using the symptoms of the PATIENT for their prescriptions, but rather the symptoms of the disease. Which explains why those of us who prescribe for the patient's representation of the disease instead of the disease itself are working 7 days a week and have little if any time to involve ourselves in discussions such as this.

Animals are NOT being cured when these so-called "remedies" are being used. Instead, the animals deteriorate, their well-being goes down hill, new symptoms that were never part of the original chronic disease start to appear and the owners start bad mouthing Homeopathy.

Whatever happened to sitting down and working up a case based on WHAT NEEDS TO BE CURED IN THE PATIENT and using the symptoms of the patient to choose the SIMILAR remedy????
Dogs

#### So am I correct in assuming that in your view using a remedy made from the Bordatella vaccine (which, BTW, does not cover all the different strains in the wild)would be the best way of curing KC? which is no more and no less than a cold?? Interesting position... especially when most dogs will recover from KC without any intervention, and those who need further care, respond very quickly to PROVEN remedies like Drosera, Ant Tart, Ars, Bryonia and pretty much any of the proven remedies capable of curing colds in Humans when the TOTALITY of the patient's symptoms are using for the remedy choice.
###### And WHEN was the proving done??? If as you state, this is an organism that can affect all species and consequently the potentized vaccine will prevent the illness in any species, then a proving in humans should be easily done, without having to worry about the ethics of using provers who have not given permission for the proving. ONLY with a proving would your statement that this vaccine will prevent the illness in ANY species, would be accurate as well as truthful.
#### Irene, I don't know where you get these theories, but I repeatedly use remedies PROVEN in HUMANS to CURE ANIMAL DISEASES, both acute and chronic. I have never had the animals respond any different than the humans do, as long as I do my job well and choose the remedy that is best suited to the totality of the symptoms of the patient. Perhaps these vets you speak of, need to use unproven remedies because they are not capable of translating the ways in which animals show their symptoms to the human symptoms (sensations, modalities, etc.) described in the provings and in the MMs. In this case then, the problem is NOT the remedy proven on humans, but the inability of the prescriber to do a good job!
####### Actually it is not that the "lack the liver function" but that they are CARNIVORES and their digestive and metabolic systems do not make the enzymes needed to digest plant materials. The same applies to dogs. However, cats will eat grass regularly when they have upset stomachs, and that particular UNUSUAL behavior (unusual for a CARNIVORE) SPEAKS LOUDLY of how their stomachs feel, making the PROVEN REMEDY CHOICE much easier!

Yet our plant remedies (in potency, so with toxicity diluted

####### No. Every time a plant remedy cures a cat or a dog, it is PROOF of the VALIDITY of the LAW OF SIMILARS and the established checks and bounds that Hahnemann gave us, upon which the SIMILAR REMEDY can be chosen, given and a cure produced!
##### You may not be able to use keynotes of remedies to GUIDE you to a remedy choice and a cure of the disease of a cat or a dog, but I do it all the time with GREAT CURATIVE SUCCESS.
##### Actually, what would holds true in practice and experience in "vethom" work as you call it, is that most Vets have NO IDEA of how to practice Homeopathy properly because MOST of them are not being taught Hahnemann's principles, and the few who have had the proper training are too damned lazy to work up the cases as they need to be worked up. And of course, there is always the FACT that most vets don't own any pets, have seldom bred a litter and have no idea of the ins and outs of daily life with a pack of animals, consequently, they may know the biology and physiology of the species (although I wonder about that too, since most of them refuse to accept that the DNA of dogs and wolves is the same and that cats are obligate Carnivores), but they know NOTHING of the interactions, instincts and daily behaviors of social animals who have lived in packs since the beginning of time.

#### The rest of your post is so far off from the actual truth of the daily work of Hahnemannian Animal Homeopaths, it is not worth for me to spend more time on it.

Magda

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "aquiline@..." wrote:
I think what you wrote here is worthy of further discussion to make it clear what we seek to repertorise on in finding a genus epidemicus remedy or an acute miasm remedy .

I am focusing on the acute because acute have primary symptoms which are quite different from chronic prescribing.

I think many students of homeopathy and some homeopaths even do not understand how to pick symptoms to repertorise on.

A lot of it comes from confusing the meaning that is written in the phrase here.

Who wants to start the ball rolling .

Questions are :

What are common symptoms not to use in a prescription?

What are symptoms of the patient and not the disease?

Do we prescribe for the patient or for the disease?

A lot of the answers will be found in Ardavan's writings on minutus.org library.

regards

Suriya

He begins writing about it in 102 (actually earlier) but you'll muddle through when you read!

Joy

http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/

Hi Magda,
In which aphor. did he do that?

NOT in aphor 153!

If there is one where he does I have so far overlooked it ynd would be
glad if you could tell me which it is.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Luise, The quoting went wrong here, those are someone else'e words
listed as mine............
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Magda,

That's encouraging for me to read about the straightforward treatment of
Kennel Cough which remedies like Drosera, Ant tart etc... I treated an 11
year old Jack Russell diagnosed with 'Chronic Airways Disease' earlier this
year. She got Kennel Cough about 4 years ago and was treated with
antibiotics and steroids and then about a year later developed pancreatitis.
At the time of my treatment her owner was administering a puffer a couple of
times a night "preventatively" to stop the coughing spasms. The dog was
deeply depressed and extremely low in energy.
Poor little girl.
I prescribed Drosera 200C 3 doses in water, given that the medicine had to
complete with such a load of allopathic interventions, and that was all it
took to get
the case in reasonable order. I thought it was almost too good to be true!
She's done well for the last several months and only now needs to have her
case retaken.

Chris.

HI Chris,

Your case is so typical! ) For many years there has been along the
'veterinary homeopathic' community this idea that animals need different
remedies than humans do.

The "guru" in veterinary homeopathy has, for years, made statements such as
"Belladona never cures a case", or "Nat Mur is not a remedy for dogs, but
perfect for cats". In my years of believing those things I had been taught
by this person, I almost lost one of my bitches after she aborted a litter
of puppies. I was on my way to a National annual breed show and decided to
take her with me, as I was sure she would die while I was away. When I
arrived at the hotel I was told that another well known Homeopathic Vet
would be giving a short seminar on Homeopathy. I rang his room and asked
him if he would come to my room and take a look at my bitch. When he
arrived he asked if I had repertorized the case. I said yes, but the remedy
that keeps coming up is not going to help. He gave me a strange look, then
proceeded to take the case, his repertorization came up with Nat Mur. The
same remedy my repertorization had yielded. He asked why I had not given
Nat Mur and I told him I had been told it was a remedy that never worked on
dogs. He looked me straight in the eye and told me that a good homeopath
took a complete case, and gave the most similar remedy. We gave her a dose
of Nat Mur 1 M (ARGH!) in dry pellet (ARGH, ARGH) He suggested I repeat the
dose by 6 PM that evening if things were not better.

At 5 PM I went back to the room to check on her, and she was bouncing
around, and begging for food (for 5 days she had refused to eat everything,
except liver). She ate a hearty meal. I never had to repeat the remedy.
More amazing is that in the weekly show schedule, she was supposed to have
been shown 3 days after our arrival. I had determined she was too sick to
be shown, but when her show day arrived she was in such great shape, I took
her in the ring. She won her class (55 bitches in it) and then she went on
to win Reserve Winners Bitch.

And if I had $1.00 for every time Belladona has "not cured" an animal case,
I'd be rich!

I cured a litter of puppies that had Parvo with Lyssin. When I commented
this to the "guru" he went red like a beet and started screaming at me "you
can't do that"!!!! I kept asking why I couldn't do what I had done. I had
taken the case, the remedy fit the symptoms, and the puppies were alive and
well and full of energy and back to being completely normal. He never gave
me a reason. All he kept saying was "you can't do that"! He never spoke to
me after that, and spent a lot of time bad mouthing me to anyone who would
listen (that is until Julian stepped in and sent him a little note reminding
him of the many successful lay practitioners Homeopathic history has
produced).

The veterinary homeopathic community is FULL of misinformation. They are
quick to diagnose and treat the disease without taking into consideration
the individual's Sx. And don't you dare tell them otherwise! the
certification process for vets is a joke! It consists of 16 days, spread
out throughout a year, (4 weekends), and after completion, they get a piece
of paper that lets them practice Homeopathy. Have you ever been able to
undo an allopathic way of thinking into a wholistic one in 16 days?? LOL

Just recently the AVHA has come up with a test to improve the certification
process, but the training has not been improved.

Anyway, off my soapbox!!

Magda Aguila
Aquiline LLC
Animal Nutrition and
Homeopathic Consultations
www.aquilinedanes.com

I have not heard the idea before, where did you hear it "for many
years"?
(It would be simple to show otherwise.)
Who is this "guru" to whom you refer?
In my opinion, nobody with any homeopathy experience could actually
believe that.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Irene,

I will be happy to copy my handwritten notes from seminars in the 80s. and
email them to you. Will also gladly copy the "study book" being use
currently. As to who this person is, I will not mention names, but you know
perfectly well who I am speaking of.

Just send me your snail address.
Magda Aguila
Aquiline LLC
Animal Nutrition and
Homeopathic Consultations
www.aquilinedanes.com