Minutus

Hi Irene,

I can perhaps (I do not know too much about this) agree with you as
far as (pre)-diabetes Type I is concerned.

As to Type II my opinion is quite different.

One cannot consider those two as one disease - they should be sharply
separated.
Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Luise,

We have a terminology issue here. Type 1 has no "pre-diabetes", that
applies to type 2, when the persoh is getting high readings but not
high enough for the official arbitrary diabetes classification.

Type 1 is different, (I did not discuss it though most of the same
principles apply). It involves a pancreas totally unable to produce
any insulin so ALL insulin has to come from external source.

In Type 2 the pancreas can still make some insulin - but is to
damaged to be able to store it. So there is no insulin ready to use
when they eat, as in normal healthy people.
The food tells the pancreas to hurry up and make it, and it takes a
while, and meantime the blood sugar shoots up and causes glycation
and so on.
The medical profession likes to separate them sharply. And there is
one aspect - the insulin source - that has to be separated and
managed well.
But the strategies I suggested for type 2 are also very helpful for
type 1 - for example knowing how much exercise will burn up how much
glucose before muscles are broken down to provide more glucose. For
type 1 you do not want to reach that stage either. Type 1 needs to
manage their glucose even more closely than type 2 in order to avoid
exercise depletion and hypoglycemic events from mismanaging insulin
and exercise - both of which lower glucose. I(f type 1 person takes
insulin suitable for a meal, and then goes to exercise they can be in
trouble because the exercise will reduce the glucose before the
insulin does, and the insulin will then take it down too far.
So it is even MORE important for Type 1 folk (and also insulin-taking
type 2 folk) to know how much exercise uses how much glucose in their
case - so they can adjust their insulin accordingly.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Maybe in your specific advanced type 2 case. Not in mine and most type 2 diabetics who still produce plenty of insulin. "Research" insulin resistance instead of winging it.

Susan

Alternatively you could read my email before responding to something
I did not say:-)

.........Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

I cannot agree with what you are saying below.

Let's forget about the Type I and II terminology - I am not sure
exactly what fits in where.

Fact is: there are at least different kinds of diabetes mellitus.

One, let us kall it "kind 1" derives

a)
from total lack of insulin due
toe destruction or complete non-functioning of the "island cells"
located in the pancreas. (as the name says: an island, the pancreas
being the ocean).

b) from low insuline output of the a. m. island cells - which is what
I meant by "pre-Type I"
This results in high blood sugar since there is no or not enough
insulin in the blood to transport it into the cells, although possibly
the receptors for the insulin or more broadly speaking the transport
into the cells that need the insulin, are quite ok.

I am not sure that in either case keeping the blood sugar low is the
answer. Raising the insulin production is an answer. Where this is not
possible, insulin should be supplied.

While high glucoe in the blood may (or may not) be damaging by itself,
the biggest problem in my opinion is the fact that the cells
themselves are starved of glucose. There it may again depend how well
in a certain patient the transportation of protein into the cells
works, so that they get enough of it to get their energy from breaking
it down; and also on the efficiency of the individual cells in doing
that breaking down. Where one or both of the above is not given, low
carb. - high protein diets may not do any good at all.
kind 2:

The island cells are ok. They produce normal amounts of insulin and
*in many cases* lots and lots of it.

Still, the blood sugar is above normal, since in spite of the insulin
being available in the blood, the transportation into the cells does
not work.

(It seems that up to know science limits the reason for that to
insulin resistance of the receptors of the cells. I personally am not
sure whether that is true - which leads me to think that in at least
part of this kind of diabetes mellitus keeping the blood sugar low is
contra-indicated - but this is a different issue)

In any case - here also applies what I said above for kind 1 diabetes
mellitus, as far as high protein diet is concerned. In this case the
problem is that there is no "relatively easy way out - i.e.
supplementing insulin.

Supplemting insulin may, in some cases, still work to a degree,
probably for the same reason that in "pre-diabetes Type II" the
fasting blood sugar level may still be ok. The higher amount of
insulin then probably finds more receptors that are still working than
a normal amount would do - and transportation into the cells does
occur - only at a slower rate. Which results in the slower reduction
of blood sugar, whith is found in the glucose tests.

@ Irene spcifically:

You probably know all I have said (although with much of it you do not
agree) - I am just writing it for the others who may not be aware of
it.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

I think you have confused Type 1 and type 2, but maybe we can sort it
out.....
Type 1 involves pancreas too damaged to produce any insulin - your
"kind one".

It happens for a few reasons, usually starts in childhood, or due to
physical injury of pancreas such as due to car accident etc.
Because the pancreas can make no insulin it is "insulin-dependent"
diabetes and insulin needs to be supplied.
In USA - Different authorities use different classifications but the
two major groups are Type 1 and type 2.
There are various stages of damage:
Some type 2 diabetics have a mild version and it is called pre-diabetes.
Some type 2 diabetics have such damaged pancreas that they benefit
from insulin as they make some but not enough.
Some doctors call them type 1 at that point as they need insulin -
and some call it insulin-dependent type 2.

ALL type 2 diabetics have lost at least some ability to produce phase-
one (immediate) insulin. They may have lost some ability to make it
as well. Ability to release phase-1 insulin is separate from the
ability to MAKE insulin at all.
The healthy body does both. It can release insulin as soon as there
is a stimulus in the mouth - a phase-one insulin response.
This is why normal people have zero insulin spike after a meal.
In type 2 diabetes, the phase one response is missing but the beta
cells can still make it. SO when the mouth detects a need, they have
a time delay before "phase two" insulin is released. Meantime the
glucose spikes up from the food eaten.
No exactly:
The pancreas has two main parts, endocrine (hormone production) and
exocrine (digestion related). The endocrine (hormone producing) part
only, is divided into 4 kinds of cells according to their hormone
job , of which only ONE is in little cell clusters called "Islets of
Langerhans". These are clusters of Beta cells which can make and
release (sometimes) insulin.

People who can not produce any insulin due to total destruction of
Beta cells, are type 1 diabetic.
a.m. ???

There is no pre-type one, only Pre-type 2.
If you mean morning glucose readings (by a.m.) that is a purely
arbitrary time to read glucose.
The reason it is used is that the liver makes glucose after it has
had no food for 8 hrs, and tat usually is the case in the morning on
waking. In normal people this is countered by insulin but in type-2
diabetic people it is not countered effectively. It will come down as
soon as they eat a high protein breakfast. (It would be a bad idea to
eat cereal at breakfast).
In type 2 diabetes the muscle cells are insulin-resistant and will
not accept glucose from the blood.
Insulin resistance is a biug opart of MOST (not all) type-2 diabetics.
One can undo the usual insulin resistance with a very low carb diet -
but it will not necessarily repair the beta cells.
Then you have a type 2 diabetic who is not insulin resistant.
But most diabetics eat the horrid ADA (Americfan Diabetes Assoc)
recommended diet and so they stay sick.
This is a common misconception because the majority of type 2
diabetics (some allopaths claim all of them) have insulin resistance
behind the problem.
Insulin resistance occurs when the cells refuse to take in the
glucose (because they are toxic from too much already).
If you add more insulin then the situation gets much worse, not
better - leading to "brittle diabetes" for example . Newer research
this century shows that excess insulin does even more harm than the
excess glucose. So adding more insulin makes matters worse.

The only way to bring down both excess insulin and excess glucose and
restore health is to eat very low carb. (and then a little extra
insulin temporarily - like 4 units max at a meal - can hep the
process of getting back to normal, then the insulin can be stopped.)
A very low carb diet does not make LOW blood glucose but will tend to
bring it down towards normal over a period of time depending how high
you start with - takes loge if you start at 800 than if you start at
180 for example.
It is very damaging. Glucose is sticky - it makes sticky microscopic
threads that criss-cross between and across cells to make the cell
walls inflexible. Cells have to flex to let nutrients in and to let
toxins out. This process of jamming up the cells with glucose is
called glycation. It then leads to production of Advanced Glycation
Products (AGE for short - and the acronym fits!) which do more
harm.... and so on.
No, the cells are toxic from too much of it. That is why they will
not let in any more, and the receptors refuse to accept insulin which
has to pass the glucose through to the inside of the cell. The
insulin receptors are shut off for self-preservation reasons, so
insulin doe not add still more glucose. They DO open again after the
blood glucose level drops to normal.
Essentially starch and sugar is toxic to a diabetic.
Protein gets there via the bloodstream then through the cell walls -
assuming they can still flex enough to let amino acids in.
The above is called Type 2 diabetes.

YOUR kind two:
No you have it in reverse.
There is no diabetes syndrome in which insulin is overproduced -
UNTIL there is too much glucose first, to trigger the overproduction.
FIRST you have damaged beta cells and too little insulin for the
carbs that are eaten.
NEXT the glucose in the blood stays high and does not come down after
meals, and the cells will not allow it in any more.
THEN the pancreas does phase two insulin production to try to get rid
of the excess glucose.
With phase-2, the body re-checks every hour to see if the glucose has
now all gone - and if not it makes more phase 2 insulin.
THIS leads to excess insulin.

It is always a part of type 2 diabetes development.

We KNOW that this is true - that receptors for insulin are blocked to
resist entry of (excess toxic) glucose.
Nobody keeps the blood sugar "low". (Actually I do know one nutcase
who does it intentionally....)
The idea is to keep it below the level at which body damage occurs.
which is below 110.
Low would be under 80.
Normal is 80-90.
Actually a high protein meal is the ONLY known way to overcome
brittle diabetes - or in fact to bring down a high glucose reading at
any time, that is "stuck" high as happens when too many carbs are
eaten by a diabetic.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Do you mean zero *blood sugar* spike?

What would be the term for when the blood sugar does not rise above
normal (and in two of my family members it never rose even *to*
normal--chronic *low* blood sugar--but after the accursed sugary drink
it goes way *low*--insulin over-response? I assume that's part of Type
2? (I *think* I remember it being called "reactive hypoglycemia", and
also "pre-diabetes"--is that correct?)

Shannon

Hi Irene,

Yes, I found out you are right in the Type I and II question - I
thought I had corrected that in my last mail. Relative insulin
insufficiency is put under Type 2. Makes no sense to me - but there
you are.

The rest of my mail had no longer anything to do with the nomenclature
of Type I or II. That is my own nomenclature and grouping:-)

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Luise,

Perhaps the sense comes when you add a timeline of events.

* It is the first phase insulin that is too low in type 2 diabetes -
namely the inability to send insulin when needed instead of only an
hour or two later (called second phase insulin).

* Because glucose is waiting about to get handled by insulin that is
not there yet, it does harm to the body.

* Finally insulin arrives, but by now the person already ate
something extra, and so the insulin is not enough.
However some of hte glucose is put ionto kmuslce cells for energy.

* The rest is still in the blood, causing damage, awaiting the next
slow insulin phase two response. And the body keeps sending more and
more insulin, but always too late for the food which it is matched to
handle.

* After many days, weeks and months of this, the result is that there
is always glucose waiting for insulin to catch up.
And the muslce cells are getting full of glucose which is toxic in
large amounts.

* SO gthe muslce cedlls say "no thanks" to the glucose, and the
pancreas thinks it can help by sending stikll more insulin.
But all that does is dump the extra glucose as fat, as the muscle
cells are now closed for business.

* The person now has -
* too much glucose in the blood;
* too much insulin ion the blood though it is always behind and out
of step with what wold have been needed to prevent the problem.
* too little energy as the muscles are closed to accepting glucose to
make energy
* too much central fat (where the insulin dumps extras - it's other
function besides putting glucose in cells for energy)

The problem is that the insulin amount is always for glucose of food
eaten a long time ago - it is always 2nd phase insulin - so there is
always an out of step excess of glucose.

To reverse the process, one has to stop eating carbohydrate (which is
ALL turned to glucose) and start helping to repair toxic muscle with
protein. Only then will the blood clear of the extra glucose and the
muscles/cells will clear of toxic glucose and start accepting new
glucose again.The pancreas which has been feeling like a dead horse
being whipped into insulin production, will need to produce less due
to the low carb diet, and will be less stressed, less inflamed, and
will find time to heal. Especially if the diet also supports such
Beta cell repair.

Exercise seems to be a special case. If the muscle can use what
glucose it has in exercise (assuming the diabetic can somehow find
the energy for exercise) then the muscle WILL allow in some more
glucose during the exercise.
So that is how exercise can help - IF it is moderate.
Hard exercise releases Cortisol (stress hormone) which raises glucose
and insulin - making diabetes worse.
Moderate exercise is also a good way to eat beneficial fruit without
overloading the blood with glucose and putting strain on a damaged
pancreas. Just be sure to exercise right after eating it.

Does that help at all?
Namaste,
Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Yes, the normal person's blood sugar is 80 to 90 even after a meal
with plenty of carbohydrate.

Thanks - yes I meant blood sugar, glad you spotted the goof!
The allopaths will call it hypoglycemia, but it is more a case of
"toxic reaction to unaccustomed toxin".
I have never had a soda in my life, and the glucose "tolerance' test
is a deliberate huge overload of unexpected sugar.
That never occurs in nature and the body is unprepared to handle it.
It does its best but gets such a fright it overdose the insulin, and
has to equilibrate again.
It is pure stupidity to devise and apply such a stupid test (in my
very "humble" opinion for damaging procedures called diagnostics).
It is like holding someone underwater for 5 minutes to see if they
drown easily.

We DO have glucose meters to see what the blood is doing without
something quite so stupid.
Allopathy has several damaging tests, and I learned many years ago to
decline them as a policy - and that policy has saved my life on
occasion.
Maybe it is not "stupid" - maybe it is just a spelling problem -
hypocracies confused with Hippocrates


A pre-diabetic response would be a LESSER first phase insulin
response, and not one that over-produces first phase insulin.

They test people used to downing many sugary drinks and those who
never used them, the same way.
Not the brightest spark developed that idea.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."