Minutus

Hi Luise,

I separated this out as it is a specific pathology rather than
general fat metabolism.
(No M, just Cushing's Syndrome).
I think you mis-read it as regards central fat. Cushing's syndrome's
*most* common sign is central frontal obesity, involving the omentum.
It is almost a universal symptom. Almost.

Legs and arms may remain thin. Fat deposits also may occur on
shoulders and back (almost as if the omentum is already full and it
has to go somewhere), and usually the face and neck is rounded or as
they say for Cushings "moon-faced".
Typical Picture here:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM00313

It is VERY rare to find someone with any version of Cushing's
syndrome who does not have the central obesity (as Cushings involves
a different kind of fat than the subcutaneous kind - a fat produced
by cortisol..... and it is high cortisol level that provides the
diagnosis of Cushings syndrome). Most of this fat is stored not as
subcutaneous fat but in the omentum (an organ in front of the body,
the name is from the Latin for "apron", in which hypertrophy of fat
cells then occurs.)

Cortisol regulates differentiation of fat tissue types, and defines
which go where through and called enzyme 11 beta-hydroxysteroid
dehydrogenase (11 beta-HSD for short). Normal 11 beta-HSD called 11
beta-HSD1 converts active cortisol to inactive cortisol (to remolve
cortisol for excretion after its work has been done), and this occurs
in subcutaneous fat tissue (which has cells called "stromal cells".)
However in the omentum it is backwards. 11 beta-HSD-2 is active there
instead of 11 beta-HSD1 (they are isoforms) and it takes INactive
cortisol and turns it into ACTIVE cortisol - actually aggravating the
problem of central fat for anyone with central obesity, and
aggravating it a lot *more* for anyone with Cushings syndrome. This
is why it is So rare to find a Cushings person without central
obesity. (It means the person is terminal from body destruction.)

This is also why I recently said that fat tissue is not inert but has
a metabolism and life of its own (though I probably summarized it as
being active tissue).
We have known that at least from 1997 from research in UK by Bujalska
IJ, Kumar S, & Stewart PM.

I know of one case only in my research of this illness (which occurs
in people, cats, dogs, horses, etc...) where there was not central
obesity. It is a case of a 76 year old woman who was admitted to
hospital undiagnosed. Unfortunately, due to allopathic lack of
understanding that not all people are alike, and/or not
understanding or checking for rare diseases that are way past normal
symptom picture, they did not even test for Cushings, and she died
within two days. The Cushings was found on autopsy. Cortisol killed
her as she was not eating to speak of.
Not for nothing cortisol is called the death hormone.
Is is in fact what the cells release on death so they all die off so
fast.
(High cortisol makes one very nauseous and very hungry at the same
time, and eating helps the nausea, which is the result of cortisol's
body breakdown products as a catabolic hormone.)
I am aware only of his research on Ghrelin in mid-2008 in Ohio. (Too
little ghrelin and you get weight-gain). Ghrelin is associated with
growth hormone but looking for ghrelin in those with Cushing's is a
mug's game as their growth hormone (needed for ghrelin production) is
supporessed by cortisol anyway - so the lack of ghrelin is automatic
and only makes weight gain worse for the Cushings syndrome individual.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Is that the same type of fat and causation as the sometimes huge belly
that's so common among older people? Or is that more apt to be
subcutaneous fat or something else?
Shannon

Hi Shannon,

I do not really see a huge belly among many older people, to be able
to see this in context. Or maybe we have different ideas of "older"
age-wise?
When I was 8, then 20 was practically doddery:-)
I associate older folks (80 or more till I get there and demand three
figures for "older") with being skinny and undernourished if anything?

There are so many different ways people can get overweight (or
underweight) due to some or other metabolic issue, or some or other
toxin, I suspect one can not generalize?

Of the people I know who are obese (or the opposite), few if any are
due to the same cause as best I can tell.
If the huge belly is all by itself and without fatty tissue obvious
elsewhere then it is very likely omentum fat and cortisol-active yes.
Subcutaneous fat does not have any of the nasty version of cortisol
conversion to extra active cortisol.
People with huge flabby arms and legs however, have a lot of
subcutaneous fat.
[It's possible to have both.]

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

Thank you - I did not know that.

How about the other way round - i. e. can fat distribution as
excessive abdominal fat, back, neck shoulders, face normal to
(relatively) thin, fat on legs including calves normal to relatively
fat also mean Cushings?

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Luise,

I am not sure if i followed your sentednce the way you meant oit -
I see it differnetly depending which words i accent - a problem with
email and no voice with it!

So I am not sure what you mean by "opposite".
But I can say that people with Cushings can not have fat legs and no
omentum fat (if that was the question).
Cushings is by definition a case of too much cortisol.
So fat WILL be put in the omentum as that's what cortisol does.

Cushings diagnosed by allopaths according to cortisol level -
measured by total cortisol excreted in 24 hrs.
For example normal at the labs here is about 10 to 20, and can go as
high as 30 or 40 units under high stress such as an athlete doing an
ironman race.
On this scale (different labs use different ones) someone with
cushings has levels over forty - usually in the hundreds by
comparison, maybe 320, 560, 158, that kind of reading. And the longer
the reading is over normal, the more the body is damaged.
Addison's is the name of the illness when cortisol is below ten. Such
folks have to take cortisol tablets to keep the heart from stopping
if they get a fright. For example President Kennedy in USA had
Addisons and needed a tablet if he saw a movie incase there was a
fright scene anywhere.
The allopathis "treatment" for cushings, is to remove the cortisol-
producing tumors surgically (if operable), they are most often in the
pituitary gland in the brain - essentially giving them Addison's
disease (with complications) instead of Cushings.
Both conditions are life threatening but Addisons has a better
prognosis. Few survive Cushings more than about 5 yrs, it's
considered 10 max.

One form of Cushings called pseudo-cushings is allopathically induced
by giving long-term prednisone (arttificial cortisol basically)
treatment.

Cortisol's functions in the body are swell known and the effeects of
excdess amounts are no picnic. In normal people it is produced to
handle frights for flight, and is then metabolised after use (maybe
in ten mins or a few hrs for a bad fright) and the effect is gone.
In those with cushings the effect is not reduced, but increased as
the omentum makes even more instesad of breaking it down, and as
tumors do produce it constantly, not in response to stress.

The problem with cushings is not as much the obesity as the other
things cortisol does to break down every part of the body including
the hippocampus of the brain and all the internal organs - usually
first evident being the pancreas for example. (Diabetes in this case,
is a side-effect of cushings). Heart attack is the usual cause of death.

So this is a very severe pathological state - either Cushings or
Addisons, in any species. There are many similar states equally
dangerous. Tumors can be carcinoid (small cancers that produce any
number of hormones that mess up the system). PCOS is also nasty and
involves obesity due to hormone pathology, and the list goes on.

I consider any excess hormone a toxin, whether coritosl, ACTH,
estrogen, aldosterone etc - so many conditions - so I use the terms
"toxic or toxin" quite loosely in that regard - as something that
does harm to the system and does not belong in a healthy body,
regardless where it originated or how it got there.

Did that answer what you asked at all?

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

The information is useful but not what I asked. The question was
poorly asked, sorry.

Let me reword it:

A person has abdominal fat, legs somewhat fat. Everything else is
within normal range.

Can that still point to Cushings?

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Like what's sometimes called a pear shape? Tho I think that means
extra "padding" on the whole area between approx waist (which can even
be slim) and knees?
Shannon

Hi Shannon,
I don't know whether that would be what it is called.

Regards

Luise
Tho I think that means extra
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Luise,
Thanks for re-wording, I did miss that meaning.
If I was wondering about that, I'd do the test for cortisol as that
would give a definite answer.
It is unlikely Cushings in my opinion. I say that because of the 187
people on the Cushings email group, I have yet to know of one who had
the additional subcutaneous fat and not just the cortisol-related fat.
But not everyone is typical (like the woman with no obesity) and
so it MIGHT be Cushings.
I'd use a test to check.
I would expect to see a slightly raised cortisol anyway as the
omentum fat produces some, but a Cushings syndrome level is way higher.

Most people with Cushings were slim and active and very suddenly
became weak and obese. Usually they find it very scary and
frightening an "not like them".
Typical is to increase 4 lbs a week and be out of breath from the
stolen oxygen used by cortisol to break down body protein and thus
they feel weak from muscle wasting too - but all this happens not
gradually, but suddenly (again in MOST cases).
Four pounds a week becomes 16 lbs the first month, 32 lbs increase
by the 2nd month, no matter what they do food-wise. A careful diet
can help SLOW this down (not reverse it as the metabolism of it is
blocked by cortisol) - but only IF you know that cortisol is
involved, and how to fight what cortisol does specifically.

But the answer to your question is - you have to test for cortisol to
be sure.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Yes, including the behind, which leads me to an off topic news
comment I can not help but make today:
A new City law in the town near here (Yakima) has ruled it illegal to
show
"Cleavage of the Buttocks"
I just heard that and can't help having a good laugh.

When I was a kid, it was fallen socks that were at fault. Literally
and otherwise... "Pull up your socks" was the command.
Looks like no more tripping over fallen pants - in Yakima at least:-)

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."