Minutus

Hi,

Irene you suggested China for the filling of the lungs with fluid. I
am wondering why not Ant-t. Is that too superficial for this flu?
China has the filling of the lungs too, but it is not so distinctive.

As Sherri seems to be saying, anything could be what the media is
trumping up as swine flu. Still there seem to be some distinctive
symptoms such as the filling up of the lungs. The flu that seemly
healthy people die from is what I am talking about. Or that is silly
because there are just too many symptoms flying around out there. I
think I am asking about what everyone else has discussed to death, so
I don't want to start a repeat. So I thought of emailing you
privately. But what I am asking may also interest others..

You suggestions for cytokine storms is long. I am going to suggest to
my husband that when he has to travel in the USA next month he get
some of that list. Could you pare it down a bit? He is healthy and I
am going to give him his constitutional today. The list has to
include things that he can get at most alternative drug stores.

Thanks,
Ellen

Hello Ellen,

I have a personal reason for considering China here. It has to do
with the mechanism of the flu virus being similar to the mechanism
for other deadly illnesses that involve a "cytokine cascade" ....
specifically FIP for which China has proved the matched remedy more
often than any other for the following things that apply to both
swine flu and FIP:

* Cytokine storm
* Interleukin -2 damage
* Treg undersupplied by damaged thymus
* Virus that attacks macrophages
* severe life threatening loss of fluid into body areas
* all resulting in potential death in 24 hrs flat

My knowledge of immunology is behind my thinking here, along with the
research on PubMed concerning the above items.
The metabolic issue in swine flu death is as follows per all this:

Swine flu virus attacks and replicates in macrophage - a type of
white cell that has the job of engulfing foreign virus something like
pacman, but which has now been attacked instead - a sneaky trick on
the part of the virus genetics of both swine flu and FIP.

I know from FIP research and swine flu research, that the cytokine
responsible for ensuring enough macrophages to kill virus, is
Ingterleukin-2 abbrev IL-2. (It is a Th-1 cytokine, so low in
vaccinated folk).
IL-2 is ALSO responsible for initiating regulatory chemicals to STOP
an excessive inflammatory response (called cytokine storm these days
it seems - used to be called toxic shock)
If the thymus gland where IL-2 is made, is healthy, it will make
these regulatory cells (Tregs for short) and the cytokine storm will
stop AND the macrophages will recover their function, and get rid of
the virus.

Now in FIP, when China is the right remedy - as it very often is - it
reverses just these above things that go wrong in FIP, and which we
now know also go wrong in swine flu.

SO that does not PROVE that China will work in swine flu as in FIP
but to me, it does strongly suggest it, if other symptoms also fit.

Here's a typical FIP case with before/after pics, and although in
THIS case the fluid is in the abdomen, the same principle appiies and
China works for FIP equally well if the fluid is around the lungs
instead of in the abdomen. It also works if the fluid is excreted
instead of accumulated. SO it has a great record in life threatening
fast illness (FIP can kill in 24 hrs as can a severe flu, due to
malfunction of the IL-2 - Tregs - macrophage - mitochondria chain of
events seen in both the illnesses.

....I did not really mention the mitochondria above as we still do
not know the connection other than that oxygen is used up leaving the
mitochondria basically "out of gas" resulting in organ failure - then
death.

The pneumonia cases I have seen that needed Ant-t were not similar
looking to the fast-paced and fluid leaking China cases, and the
China has for MY work, proved the best in IL-2 and fluid-based
issues. ALSO - Whether it matters or not here in swine flu, the Ant-
t cases I have seen, have had more to do with bacterial pneumonias
than viral - which involves different cytokines in the immune system,
not the "IL-2 macrophage Tregs" approach.

We do not have a body of work that I know of to correlate immune
system areas of damage/malfunction with remedies in homeopathy (yet),
but I predict/hope we will one day be able to do that. After all the
immune system activities are basically symptoms, and as such should
help us differentiate a remedy.

We already use other "internal;" symptoms such as liver inflammation
and kidney inflammation etc and various lab test abnormality findings
as symptoms in the repertory - so why not "Il-2 malfunction" or
"macrophage attack" or "Mitochondria lack of oxygen" etc.

It's my theory for now, and all I am suggesting at this point is to
not forget to look at China as an option - when looking for the
remedy to fit the whole case should one be presented. I know that in
FIP I came up with China after a great deal of work and NOT from
anything obvious!

In the past I have found it very useful to use the research findings
about an illness - the more facts about it, the better I feel -
towards remedy selection. It has quite often led to success where
prior attempts failed due to things like hidden symptoms, apparent
lack of symptoms or not knowing what the infection was doing
internally (till it was shown in research).

SO I dunno if that explanation helps but it's what I had i mind for
the suggestion.
I think: Wherever it originates, the damage it does to the body is
quite well studied already, and so it gives us the symptom picture we
need to address, whether the virus is of germ warfare origin or
natural mutation or any other origin. It's what "it" does in the body
that counts now.
Well, based on the immune system symptoms of this flu, this is very
much to be expected. The young population is the most vaccinated so
will have the MOST thymus damage (as each vaccination damages it
more) and therefore the lowest ability to make Tregs to stop a
cytokine storm. It makes perfect sense to me, and fits all that is
described by those doing research or seeing cases.
Sorry - If anything I'd make it longer - and add Vit D:-) I think I
left it out by mistake!
However most of the list IS accessible at a good HF store - the
problem being that the flu attacks in hours not days, and the stores
are closed for hours at a time and all weekend.
When I travel, I take all the supplements listed (and a small remedy
kit in mini-ziploc bags attached to index cards in a tiny purse) plus
dried mango snacks with me, not in huge amounts of supplements but a
few of each only, with a view to buying more if needed but having
enough handy for say a weekend till HF stores open. Kinda depends on
the city what's open when. This is "back-of-beyond-ville" where
people say "home-ee-what? if you want a remedy!

Minimal: Alpha lipoic acid 600mg caps, lots of Vit C, and E-1000mg.
Remedies.
I'd incloude Aconitum napellus 200C to nip infection in the bud, and
use it prophylactically if I were him:-)

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I forgot the link:
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/fipcase.html

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

This is most interesting.

Did the cases you cured with China also have (a lot of) blood in the
fluid? (I am here referring to what happened in the Spanish flu).

I fully agree what you said about research, i.e. that the things
research finds out are symptoms.

Nash for one already argued in that manner about hepatization etc. in
pneumonia. H was a very open-minded and intelligent homeopath, IMO.

To your last sentence below: I have been wondering why Aconite is not
at the peak of the remdies that seem to have been genus epidemicus in
the Spanish Flu. Sudden high fever is after all a key-note and should
be the first to be considered in cases where the flu (or whatever) is
ccaught at that state.

So, besides prophylaxis before, Aconite ought to be in the emergency
kit, to be taken if the prophylxis did not work and this high fever
comes on.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

My understanding is that Aconite would only be useful in the first 1 or
2 days; after that it's moved on to involve other tissues and effects
that are beyond the reach of Aconite. But it would be fascinating to
see how many cases might be ended, or at least dampened, by taking
Aconite at the first sign of significant illness.

Hi Luise,

I can not answer yes or no directly, as in FIP it is not whole blood
but blood without the cells which leaks out from the blood vessels.
(The cat basically starves as that's where all the food is.) So it is
blood in a way, but not whole blood?

IL-2 is very low in FIP (and swine flu) and the cytokine imbalance
that results, (cytokine storm issue) causes the blood vessel
permeability damage in FIP. I could not find equivalent detailed
research on swine flu as to the exact source of fluid.

I'd like to know where the fluid in the lungs in swine flu comes from
- is that also leaked blood serum/plasma - or is it interstitial
fluid or something to do with electrolytes????

Certainly in 1918 we had whole blood leakage to deal with.
Yes I think we need to pay more attention to this valuable
information - especially in cases of new and less well understood
disease as here. We can use all the clues we can find, towards a
genus epidemicus short list.

I would take the Aconite FIRST - automatically - due to its
reputation to "nip infection in the bud" and the need to use it
BEFORE PATHOLOGY SETS IN, IN ACUTES. [Used that way it can halt most
colds, flus etc in their tracks - IF one remembers to use it, as I
often do not!}

Once pathology sets in, it is usually too late for Aconite, in an acute.
(Not true of Aconite as a chronic simillimum - that works fine)

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Dear Irene,

Your logic reseach and experience are so interesting.

I do think when we have a weak patient, we are always thinking of the
amount of aggravation stress the patient can tolerate. So that is
basic.

But moving one step a head of the disease progress is mind more
difficult to think about. I can see where even if you were not a
disease specialist in one animal, you still could think like this
using allopathic research. But on an intuitive level, it is always
better for me (as a patient) to focus on what is right in front of me.
As the patient, staying in the present can be difficult and
distraction is usually not productive. If the organism is dealing
with a life threatening disease in its current stage, would it be
wise to distract it? Obviously, the practitioner is trying to
anticipate change. But getting the patient to anticipate change by
jumping ahead with the next remedy is counter to everything I have
learned. Which is not an automatic discounting of your thinking. I
just means I am experiencing resistance based on pervious learning.

Possibibly because you are talking about fast moving disease
processes, our remedies tend to be behind the actual pace of the
disease. Also, if a resiliant organ such as the kidney or liver is
being underminded, then symptoms will tend to show up much later than
the current pace of damage until a crisis occurs. Could you clarify
the situation for me a bit?
On a more mundane level, I am trying to find the possible rubrics for
the filling up of the lungs and other characteristics of the swine
flu. I found China for puffing on expiration in the Radar rep. I am
trying to imagine the patient. Is this a "pink puffer" and the cat
with with the exudation in the pleural cavity is a blue bloater? Lack
of oxygen would be blue. What would the symptoms be other than the
swelling of the cavity.

China is not under "paroximal" or sudden onset. The few rubrics that
I brought up for this only partly understood predicted disease did not
include China. But with my repping skills, that is not much of a
challenge. More important, I get the feeling that your research
method is not a simple repping process.

Are there parallel China disease cases that you are looking at?

Blessings,
Ellen Madono
On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Irene de Villiers
wrote:

Ah - I think you are referring to my approach in FIP, which is my
biggest area of work starting early 2003 when I got my first success
with that awful illness. I still have not found a better way to
address it after the vet calls it terminal (which is when I see the
case as the owner is reluctant to kill the cat as advised).
I hasten to mention that I do not need to use this approach as as
rule, but that it was the ice breaker for FIP success, as otherwise
the speed of FIP damage can far exceed the speed of health building
using homeopathy. I am very stubborn, I just do not accept that the
case is "incurable". FIP sets off what I suppose allopaths would not
call a cytokine cascade - that abdominal fluid volume will more than
double in one day, squashing the internal organs such as kidney,
heart, lungs into failure while simultaneously starving the cats (a
creature designed to eat protein every 2 hrs). The damage occurs way
too fast to see symptoms of what organ was most affected inside - the
animal is dying or dead then - and yet the remedy needs to address
what is going on inside - not the fluid filled abdomen - which is
actually a side-effect, however physically dangerous.
Homeopathy still heals from the inside - and the vital fluid leak
is relatively non-inside even though it is trapped inside. It's
relevant to find where it leaked from, and what organs are damaged.
Homeopathy "wants" to address the liver or kidneys or whatever is
failed INSIDE - first. I can not change that, it is the direction of
cure - so I felt I had to address it accordingly.
This is why we homeopaths need a different homeopath to help us when
WE are ill:-)
We are too close to it - we see the obvious things - not the
direction of cure or less obvious but more relevant things. I fall
into that trap myself often enough:-)
In the FIP cases, I explain my principles of approach to the client/
animal-owner and suggest how to dose. It involves an enormous amount
of explaining and email back and forthing. Using email is very
helpful as everything is in writing to refer to as often as needed,
In vethom there is also the advantage that the client is a well
person - and not prejudiced as regards how the symptoms feel - and so
they are dosing the ill one, as opposed to being the ill one. It is
less subjective and more objective.
Ah yes, but my description of my FIP approach is for homeopaths to
read, not the cats:-)
In hopes that if some human disease arrives with similar issues = too
fast etc (Heaven forbid however!) - then a similar approach might be
considered for a clients.
How do yo mean distract it?
The idea is to assist it in healing - which is why it gets success
when used, where not using it loses the case.
Not so much anticipate it as to guess at which change is internal and
present - but as yet externally invisible.
So the dosing is to meet current symptoms or issues that exist but
are not yet visible.
Any anticipating needs to be done by the homeopath not the patient.
In FIP there is no next remedy. The cases I see get ONE remedy - and
it includes what is visible PLUS what I believe is going on
internally and (currently) invisibly.
There is no time for a remedy change in FIP - you get one shot at it:-(

I have seldom managed to save a case if I needed to change a remedy -
at least not in effusive FIP (the version with internal fluid
accumulation).

There is usually a little more time in dry FIP and in neurological
FIP (both much more rare) - though the damage progresses in a severe
way very fast with both. For example neurological FIP seizures can be
very violent throwing the cat about by some yards against furniture
and lasting several minutes - and happening several times a day. This
is incredibly alarming to the cat and the owner and the cat can get
very injured too. And dry FIP can cause detatched retina in hours,
and liver failure overnight - you have to hop skip and jump if your
first remedy is wrong at that stage.)
FIP did not read those rules though:-)
I think we need to respond to the TYPE of disease we actually see in
modern timesw - FIp is caused byman - it was not there in Hahnemann's
time - it is caused by a mutation and it is due to over-vaccination
that disease results instdead of a macrophage merely engulfing it. In
addressing this *new* scourge, if current thinking does not get
success, we need to think harder and try to figure something that
*will* work
The problem is that previous learning does not address newer events.
We can use it where it fits and works.
Yes to all these thoughts.
Did that help above?
It would be easier to do if we knew where that fluid came from.
For example in FIP, I know the fluid is leaked from compromised blood
vessels (hence rubrics that fit are to do with loss of vital fluid,
and blood vessel inflammation) - and in FIP this is due to damage of
macrocytes in the blood where the virus replicates, and makes
substance to cause vessel damage and leakage. (And it MIGHT be so in
swine flu in that the virus there ALSO replicates in macrocytes - but
it might be a different mechanism leading to lung fluid buildup).
BOTh involve excess inflammatory cytokines. SO a rubric for internal
inflammation in the GENERALS applies - but it's not enough.

In FIp the cat with effusive FIp MOST times (not all times) hides
from the world - under the bed - shuns company - dislikes touch or is
irritable with it - etc.
THAT is to me even more important than the fluid issue - mind is
always of MOST relevance.
I do not know how people with swine flu act? we need to know this
kind of thing.

The closest I can come is that the man with it in this town, refused
to stay in hospital and went home and has not been found by
officialdom - he is hiding, at least from them.
I have not seen color symptoms in cats with FIP, apart from gum
paleness due to anemia so I do not use color symptoms.
The cat in the photos on my web page is grey/blue because that's the
normal skin/fur color of that cat.
He has a gene for no-fur, but the color genes are still there.
(Actually he has a fine peach-fuzz there instead of fur.) Normal cats
with FIP just look overweight, you can not see the bones sticking
out - I thought this one showed the true situation better.
But the blue color is not to do with the illness in this case.
In cats lack of oxygen looks a strange pale shade in the tongue. The
fur/skin pigment makes it unsuited to looking for oxygen depletion.
The cat's breathing is a better indication - but does not show in a
photo of course.
Hiding, not wanting to be touched, being ravenous and unable to eat,
getting dehydrated (due to fluid leaked out of blood vessels),
burning protein up and losing muscle (but this is cat-specific as
they have a weird hi-protein metabolism needing protein food every
two hrs or they break down their own protein - hence the bones
sticking out all over - covered in China as
"ravenous with emaciation" rubric), weakness, lassitude, indifference
to what's going on around them, liver inflammation, kidney
inflammation, anemia.
But neither FIP nor swine flu is sudden onset, if you look at the
predisposing factors as part of it.
Both require a Th-1 ineffective immune system, so that Interleukin-2
is low (which is not a fast thing to occur, it needs consistent
repeated thymus damage) and thus the defences are missing. They went
missing slowly. The sudden pathological part we see, is the last
straw, not the only aspect. BOTh FIUP and swine flu are usually
caused by vaccination damage to the thymus really - it's what makes
the system ready to be attacked - but the REAL disease is arguably
the damaged thymus, not the virus attending the feast made by that
damage.
If you fix that thymus damage with homeopathy (as China does well in
FIP) then the virus has no chance and is overcome right away.
Just FIP. Lots of it:-)
I know of nothing else that is so much in line pathologically in
terms of mechanism and the part of the immune system affected. Dengue
fever might be similar, but I have not worked with it. (Nor with
Malaria - also a "China" disease).

If anyone hears of symptoms of this new flu please put them on the
list here, to help us.
Especially mind sx and generals.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Dear Irene,

That was an exciting peep into your mind. Thank-you. I have heard
some of this before, but I am clearer now.

Me:
If the organism is dealing

I see what you are saying in that the speed of the illness has to do
with the state of the thymus. But I can almost hear the professor
droning on about how the adult thymus shrinks and it is hardly
functioning in an elderly person. Apparently this is no longer the
allopathic opinion either. I got the impression that the thymus only
functions as a vital organ during childhood. I also thought T-cells
were produced by the thyroid gland. In immature t-lymphacytes and
are stored in the thymus. Is something more happening? I am unclear
why the thymus is so important.

What I meant is I think of the vital force being directed by the
correct remedy to focus on the problem that most affects the
organism's health. To focus on what will happen as opposed to the
current situation would be a distraction to the healing process. The
vital force would be distracted. But apparently you are not really
intending to jump ahead of the physiological process, rather you are
focusing on physiological pathology that cannot be seen in the
immediate symptoms. This makes sense, though difficult to do.

FIP feels like an acute of a chronic, except maybe there is no chronic
stage, or hidden stage. I envy you as you are in an excellent
position to use a one shot last ditch effort over an over to perfect
your method.

Fluid filling the lungs is loss of fluid, thus China because the lungs
are external cavity, right?

Best,
Ellen Madono
On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Irene de Villiers
wrote:

I have heard those lectures too - but adult thymus only "shrinks" in
people/animals who are vaccinated.
Non-vaccinated ones have a real one.
In fact vaccines damage it so much that if a pregnant person/animal
gets any kind of vaccine - the fetus will have an almost nonexistent
thymus at birth.

SO the myth about no thymus when mature - is only since vaccines were
introduced.
It's an assumption from observation, that it is shriveled away as we
age - but the real thing is that drugs, vaccines and soy food damage
it, and the result is failure of thymus (which protects from chronic
disease and from cytokine storm illnesses - hence the huge excess of
chronic diseases now) .

Same story with vets who say the same about cats etc. But when I had
a necropsy done on an older cat which had never been vaccinated, the
thymus was all there as I predicted.
No, the T in T-cell stands for Thymus. The B in B-cell stands for
Bone marrow.
Thyroid only does thyroid hormones and nothing to do with white cells
or any other blood cells.
Ah.
The thymus is responsible for a large group of cytokines roughly
grouped together and called "Th-1 cytokines" (T-helper-type-1)
which keep us from getting chronic illness or from over-reacting to
other illness states, especially viral ones.
So without a working thymus we are especially predisposed to chronic
illness, and viruses.
Every illness has a cytokine profile (and there are several dozen
cytokines), in which one or more is too low and one or more is too
high. This imbalance is manipulated by infective organism genes to
disarrange the defences we should have - and can be permanently
"skewed" (called Th-2 skewed immune system) by vaccines, drugs and
soy (and no doubt other things yet to be proven to do this).
Because vaccine mfrs never do long-term studies in vaccine effects,
the vaccines are seen as "safe" by allopathy as they do not drop
people dead on the spot each time, chronic disease is a
predisposition issue in the thymus - the disease comes later, maybe
only in later life, as cancer, arthritis, allergy, diabetes, etc etc.

One of the thymus cytokines - Th-1 cytokine Interleukin-2 - is
especially relevant to viral infection like this flu - and is always
low in a damaged thymus.
The full mechanisms of the flu and immune system cytokines are not
all known yet. We know the brain directs the thymus and its cytokines
- and we know toxins can stop that brain management of cytokines -
but we do not know the exact mechanisms.
On the contrary I think it would make healing faster (and that is
borne out in practice) - as it pre-empts the damage instead of
waiting for it to occur and then addressing it in addition to what
was first seen.
How the remedy has the intelligence to detect that further damage is
in the process of happening, I am not sure - but I do know that if I
select a remedy that includes damage I can not see but do predict -
the cat has a MUCH better survival chance.
(Before doing that it had close to zero chance).
I think not - I think it is well directed, not distracted.
To some extent I am - for example there may be little liver damage
when I start a remedy but I know it will be liver failure in 24 hrs
if I skip the liver aspect, so I include the rubric for liver damage.
Partly I am using lab tests, partly research findings,and largely
experience in the specific illness and how it tends to look in which
cats. I used innate constitutional type also to predict order of
damage - for example a Lyc type cat is sure to get liver damage
before kidney damage - but a cat with a constitutional type for more
suscepetible kidney will be the other way round.
FIP (or any illness) affects the individual worst where the
constitution is weakest.
It's debatable. The issue is that vets do not recognize it so nobody
calls it FIP then.
FIP has a short inflammatory stage when the mutation of FIP virus
occurs. But if the owner notices and takes the cat to the vet, vets
assume it is cat flu and dish out antibiotics. (Not that it makes
sense, it's just what they do.)
Then a variable time up to 6 weeks later, the cat is suddenly
symptomatic again and at death's door.
Oh it is not enviable.
I could choose any kind of case, as I work by email and there are
just not enough vethoms at all.
But FIP is a horrid situation because I get upwards of 20 requests a
day for cats with FIP, and I can handle maybe one or less a week
these days - used to do 2 or 3, but my own health is getting worked
on as a priority.
So the other approx 140 people per week begging for help for their
special feline family member with FIP, get to have a dead cat going
through a horrible death, because there is no help.
I hate being in that position.

Any kitten or cat not helped is dead. Vets have zero success in FIP.
And FIP attacks mostly young cats and kittens (usually triggered
after too many vaccines) - and some unlucky folks lose one cat to
FIP and get another - only to repeat the tragedy as they get a
kitten from a shelter - practically a FIP factory. There is often a
child losing a pet, or an older person losing their only companion
and so on. Even if I do work on a case, there is no guarantee of
success and it is hard work intensive nursing needed, not just the
odd remedy dose.
So it is not easy work. One learns a little from each case, but it is
a hard road to travel.

Unvaccinated cats do not get FIP (unless they have the drug or other
causes instead) - but they are few and far between.
Prevention is easy - but it requires lack of vaccination and is
illegal as such - as well as FIP not being well known as regards
causes.... vets only know what they learned in vet school which is
seriously wrong in most cases.
So FIP is a very sad case disease for all these reasons.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."