Minutus

Hi Luise,
Sorry to be off list so long - I just saw this now.
Can you also send a physical description of the cat?
she?
he?

I assume a neutered male here right?
Several males will do this, depending o innate constitutional type,
especially at a relatively immature age like 2 or 3 years.
How old is yours?
It is aggressive teenage behavior. Male cats of some breeds do not
properly magture till about 6 yrs of age, so they will mount
"anything in fur" - even females will mont other females, or males
will molunt other males - whatever is handy!
They are just showing sexual immaturity and hormonal behavior as in
human teenage males who were not disciplined to behave differently.

The trick here (to decide symptoms and thus rubrics) is to
iunderstand why it is occurring.
Tell more about his age, background (social) and behavior at other
times,m and his physical stature and proportions?
(This last helps with constitutionaml type sometimes)
Knowing the Innate Constitutioanal Type (ICT) can be usefjul, so as
to know what is a constitutional propensity and what is due to
another cause. FOr example each ICT has a differnt mating procedure.
Colch is a jump on top before the female realizes it type. Sulph is a
braggart and goes about mating before he knows what he is doing, to
show off. Plat will wait for an audience to show his prowess and will
not mount an unready female.
So each of these (as examples) is doing the mounting for a different
reason and thus needs a different rubric or a differn t training
procedure (or both).
Cats need to be trained - just as dogs and human toddlers need
training to know how to behave well socially. All animals need it,
not just domesticated ones, and usually get it from other members of
the species.
So if you only have one cat - which other cats are involved?
This is him trying to be a beliggerent male (teenager?) Trying to be
macho I suspect.
USUALLY - not always - it is best to use a quiet tone to calm things
than to use a strong one,
so as not to excite him more and cause escalation of emotions that
are already out of balance.
You can also introduce "time out".
Tell him to stop or he will get time out.
If he does not stop, say - Time out and take him to where he has top
be for time out.
Make it 5 minutes or so. Explain it well.
He will soon learn to associate time out with your telling him he
will get time out if he does not obey.
He is trying to be topcat - and you need to be that, (as you realize)

[Mother cats do not teach with violence, they grab the cat at the
back of neck and hold its neck down hard to the floor and just hold
it there, unable to move. It is considered very ignominious in cat
society to be held down thus, so it is basically an embarassment, and
does not work well with wanting to seem the big deal macho male with
prowess, so it works well. They do this hold for longer and longer
till the "junior" gets the point of who is in charge. The mother will
use surprise to achieve the hold-down and have the jpper hand, but it
is a hold and not a bite. It would be hard for you to do that, and
also not necessarily the best option at this stage. Chances are he
left his mother before he had this training. Most cats are weaned and
taken far too young, well before social skills are taught.]

One reason he may attack you, is that he sees you as trying to take
away his chosen mate.
If he is mounting with a neck HOLD (not bite) to hopefully mate the
other cat, that is not attack but an attempt to mate.
Most cats have that instinct to mate, and it does not make any
difference if they are neutered or even what age they are neutered.
Some ICTs have it more strongly than others, but it is there in all
cats. It is generally risky to separate mating cats as the hormones
are flying and you risk being bitten. It is the female calling
hormones that cause the male to become interested in mating - they
are especially strong now that the days are getting longer. The
female cat is triggered to call (mating call) by tghe days getting
longer - this is to time the kittens to be born in Spring. My females
are all calling now - and their pheromones will excite the calmest
old neutered cat. YOUNG/IMMATURE males, can not tell male from female
nor calling from noncalling sometimes however:-) hey just get super-
excited and mount anything in fur.
In what way?
Does he cause injury? Does he just want to be left with his "mate" or
is there more to it?
Do not let it be about strength.
Have it about status and consequences. Increase the consequences
(time out etc) accordingly.

For example with my son's cat when I visited a week, the cat wanted
to sneak out the door under my wheelchair. SO he got timeout in the
coat cupboard with the light on for 5 mins. If he did it again, he
got that with the light off. If he did it again, he got that but
first had to see all other cats get a treat and him not. He learned
quickly who was in charge of when he could go out - and not to take
advantage of the wheelchair situation. Then he started to get treats
for getting it right.
It depends WHY he is doing it and I'll follow up better if you can
let me have answers to the questions posed above please?

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

Thank you.

This is just an intermediate. I will answer more fully in a few days.

Just now only to let you know how much I appreciate your help.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

My pleasure.....Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,
.
Well, some time ago I saw a photo of an "Oriental Shorthair". This was
very bery close to what he looks like.

Actually he is an alley cat. There was a great big Siamese tom running
around there - he very likly donated his genes to the mother or
grandmother. (Oriental Shorthair seems to be Siamese light or
something)

His head is much longer and more pointed than that of the European
cats, yet not as long and pointed as that of the Siamese. His ears are
rather big. His body is long. Pretty sturdy built. Very inferior tail,
somewhere between catand rat. Legs short for a Siamese, long for a
European cat. Fur a lot longer and richer than that of Siamese.
Alltogether a pretty big cat.

Coloring: typically tiger head and front. Belly almost all
yeloww-grey. Back is a long streak, about 4 inches wide of black from
neck to and onto tail. Sides black with rather wide, curved bands of
yellow-grey.

Sorry: a Germanism slipped into my mail. In German a cat (Katze) is
"she" - just as a table is "he", a door "she", a girl "it". A tom
(Kater) is "he". But when I am referring to the tom by the general
expression Katze, then he is "she":-))

In other words: my cat is a "he" as far as English goes.

yes
He is 8 years old - but at the time this was observed he was around 3
y o. So this may be it. Maybe things have changed now - as you
remarked, he bing an only-cat I do not know the present state.
Well, here is the story.

In Sept 2000 I moved to Crete and rented pretty big a house at a
snap-price because it was off-season. During the season, which had
just ended, it had been rented by families on vacation, for 1 or 2 or
3 weeks at a time.

Sokrates (the cat - nick is Soki) was one of a gang of alley cats all
about the same age, I guess 5 to 6 months - about 10 of them plus some
older ones. Of course I fed them all. Soki was different in that he
expected to be let into the house and remain there. In retrosepct I am
quite sure that one of the first families renting the house (the
season starts April) took him in and that he more or less was handed
on from familiy to family stayin in this house during the season. The
last of them had just left. So of course he expected to be allowed
into the house.

I did not. I knew right well I could not have him be
my cat for the 5 months I was going to stay there and then leave him
behind -- and I definitely did not want another cat.

Well, from Sept. until Xmas we both kept it up - and this may be
relevant. I did not let him into the house. This meant keeping doors
and windows closed all the time. Not too bad, since it was no longer
hot. BUT: He would sit outside on the window sill all the time. Not
miowing, not doing anything: just looking in. (Gosh - I am crying
again thinking of it - and I do not cry all that easily). There was
this feeling of absolute disappointment, not being able to understand
why he could not come into *his* house. Ilived behind closed shutters
in order not to see it - crying my eyes out.

At Chrismas time he had won - I said good-bye to my plans for the
future. My cats were then 18 - I had planned for years to go
back-packing around the world after they died for years on end. For
the first time in my life I would be able to do so. No - I definitely
did not want another cat.

I fought a long battle with myself. Perhaps, if I did not take him, I
would have an accident or illness and not be able to carry out my
plans, anyway. He would be dead by then (every once in a while the
alley cats in Greece are poisoned) He also looked so much like my
fist-cat (also from the Mediterranean)

Well, it is not about a remedy for me:-)) I am just telling this to
show how he kept to a "lost cause" for 4 months - which may tell you
something about his constitutional make-up.

I took him in and my cats - to my surprise - were abosutely nasty to
him. They at that time were still bigger and stronger. They would
chase him etc. Well, he did not suffer - the house was big enough too
keep them separated and he was allowed to go out.

In January I had him altered.

Surprisingly enough he was NOT fixed to the house after all. When in
February I moved to a different place he got very upset when I was
packing. After he found out that he was to come along he was
absolutely happy, and he had no problems adjusting to the other house
and environment.

Same when we returned to Germany - ONLY: here I no longer could allow
him to go out. He really has been suffereing because of this, even now
it is hard on him during spring and summer/autumn.

By that time he had become stronger than my old cats and he in turn
terrorized them, by mounting and biting their neck (just holding on,
not breaking skin). I again had to keep them apart.

A year or so later the old cats both died. I tried to realize at leas
the very kernel of my past plans for the future: 6 months in India. So
I looked for a plce for Soki to stay. Found one that seemed ideal. I
thought that the matter with my old cats had just been a case of
revenge on them for being so nasty when he was still the undercat.
Since he had been with that gang of alley cats for the first 9 months
or so, I figured he would feel ok with a bunch of cats. The place I
selected had a big room with about 20 cats waiting for adoption, all
sorts of climbing equipment etc, and also a door out to a protected
biggish space.

Well, I took him there and he started his old game: mounting and
holding on to the neck. I figured even then: they will settle the rank
on the totem pole and things would be ok. I did tell the people: if
there are problems, let me know.

Well they did not. When I returned to pick him up after 6 months I
found out that he had been in solitary confinement in da small room
almost all that time, since he made too much trouble when together
with the other cats. The vet had had to come in a number of times -
skin eruptions. He still had a little around his mouth - a dose of
Sulfur (or the return home) took care of that.

I do not really remember the *exact* way he acted. I do know he held
on to the neck but did not break the skin.
Well, I think I answered yout questions by my tale.
That of course was one of the problems. I guess he was in the house as
kind of a toy for the kids. He WAS potty-trained. As soon as I let him
into the house he went to the litter box - and he is the cleanest cat
I have ever had.

By now he is quite easy to get along with. No real problems, as long
as I romp with him a few times each day.

Actually though he trained me not to pet him. Not always but most of
the time: if I pet him for any length of time he will start biting.
First licking, then light bite and then, all at once, real nasty - the
way a cat holds on to a rather big prey.

So we have come to the agreement: I leave him alone. When he comes on
my lap or on my keyboard;-) and purs, I pet him a little while. As
soon as he starts licking I tell him "no biting" and stop petting.

He does love to be talked to - he loves it when I have company.

He is a very talkative cat.
None for the last 4 years or so.

Well - he is a Cretan, after all.

Sitting there on the window sill he looked so wise - this is why I
called him Sokrates.

If I had known him better then I would have called him Minotaurus:-))

No, usually is about food.

I give hims something and he will not eat it. So it is his problem -
he can eat his kibbles, as far as I am concerned.

As far as he is concerned, I am a bad, bad mother, letting her
children starve. He wants to make me open can after can (or pouch
after pouch) of food and offer it to hin, until - maybe at second try,
maybe at 10th) there is something fit for him to eat this time.

His to-da-food-not-fit-to be-eaten probably was his
finally-something-sumptuous a few days ago and may be the latter again
a few days hence. AND he will not eat it, but will keep pestering me
all day long resp. again and again during the day.

This is really the only problem I have with him. Oh - pretty soon the
yowling "I want to go outside" will start again - but that I can
readily understand. He was almost 18 months old before he got confined
to the house.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Ah yes, In the pedigreed version the "Oriental" is a siamese with
normal coat colors, not the "point" colors and blue eyes that come
with what is called the "Siamese gene", but otherwise bred long and
skinny with super-short fur and no undercoat, same bone structure and
proportions as Siamese.
Your kitty had a more substantial build (which is much healthier
by the way, than the extreme one.)

It is the proportions within breed that I look for, such as a tail
that is short relative to the body or a body shorter or longer than
legs etc.
Ears big is useful as it is relative.
Inferior as in less fur?
or shorter?
or both?
Shorter than body? Short neck?
Except tail?
A pattern called classic tabby.
Nein - It is I who should be sorry. I am well aware how German has
every noun divided into male, female and neuter genders, I realized
it a few lines later, and should have edited out my silly question! I
struggled in school with this aspect of German, also the idea of, for
example, a castle and a lock being the same word except for the
gender. However English has even worse ways with words!
Thankfully I started with English and did not have that as an added
language to learn.
I realized here - just did not edit, sorry.
So he got into a bad habit then.

Cats are VERY security-conscious, amazingly so. Some will associate
security with a place, but they can also associate it with a person -
it depends on circumstances. Either way, if the security is
threatened (in their belief), they get very stressed and behave
accordingly to try to establish a feeling of safe security. I suspect
your young male at age 3 had a combination of hormones and security
issues on his mind then. Also his street upbringing would have over-
stressed the need for a good position on the social ladder in order
to be secure. Cats will confuse the two, especially if one seems
threatened: If physical "home" seems in question then they will turn
to the other aspect they may be able to control better - to
strengthen their social position - anything to give them a greater
sense of security.
So I would see the behavior as "macho teenager" acting from a
position of internal insecurity and looking for a way to feel less
threatened (physically or socially, makes no difference). His age - 3
at the time - is the age at which I see the most insecure-male
attitude. They do not have the experience of older males, and they
are not such young kittens that social standing is not important -=
so they are in-between, strength getting very good but experience
poor, and ambition high.
He should have outgrown it by now, with increased experience that
life goes on after small fears are overcome.
Cats who are single tend to have higher security fears than cats in a
group. It is because a cat is by nature a solo predator - they must
be able to hunt alone (hunting being an instinct separate from hunger
instinct in cats) - but it is normal to belong to a social group when
not hunting. So if the cat is ALWAYS solo (alone) then it MUST feel
more than the usual fear of becoming prey, and thus a need to be "on
guard" and aware of security issues at all times, even when not hunting.
Depending on how well yours has adjusted and how secure he thinks he
feels now, he may be quite relaxed or quite tense. This depends
partly on how close his relationship is with you, and partly on
constitutional type.

You can increase the cat's feeling of security by increasing the
number of words (of your language) that he understands.
The more words you teach him (and he will learn amazingly fast,
cats are ten times better linguists than dogs) the more relaxed and
secure he will feel as you will be the social circle he needs to feel
that way.

You may already have done this.
My cats for example know the meaning of the following:
"I'm coming back"
"Wait, I am busy"
"It's okay" (eg to explain some noise or firework is safe)
"It's too hot, you can have it when it cools"
"It's fish not chicken tonight"
"Do you want your harness off?"
and other phrases.

Cats learn sentences easily, and indirect concepts (like I'm coming
back; it's okay; go higher/lower to fins it) and do not need single
word commands.
The point is that all this communication develops a lot of trust - so
you can reassure your cat easily, and he will trust you, and believe
you, and feel like family - not like HE alone has to defend "his"
territory - it will then be shared and be secure, he'll trust you to
share in territorial security.

The trust makes a big difference to enjoyment for the cat and for the
owner.
My cats trust my "I'm coming back" even if I go away for a week. (I
taught it with small timing to start, telling them "Wait here, I'm
coming back" and they got a treat if they did.)

I have to confess: I do NOT speak cat anywhere near as well as they
understand me.

I have one cat who can get rough if he does not get the attention he
wants. I need to train him the way I would a 3 year old child, with
time out if he does not follow my instructions - and praise and
treats when he does..
With cats the training involves making them think that the behavior
(that you want) is in THEIR interests to do.
Maybe you already chat to your cat - as you say he is chatty... but
otherwise I'd suggest making it even more meaningful.

Lucky cats to find you.
Cats often attach to a place that way. I moved to a house once where
an older Siamese had to come there daily (he had been born there and
now lived next door) and spend 20 mins every day - part of his
territorial "rounds" - checking out the house top to bottom.
In his case he was too old to adapt anyway and there was no harm done
letting him tour the place daily.

It could well have affected his sense of place-security, he probably
sensed your ambivalence, and did not understand it.

Cat power
Mine have me as trained slave too.

Yes. It helps. Not all cats are so home-attached - needing a home
base as a secure place.
I would use this concept as a rubric.
Anxiety - In house - amel
Some constitutions are the other way round - *never* want to be in a
house.
Also needing a person, rather than other cats for company.
And his persistence.
They were protecting their secure home against an invading cat
threatening their territory.

Next time you add a mature cat somewhere, make sure to add some
territory for it first. (Kittens are usually accepted as no threat)
Cats measure territory in paths not spaces. So all you need is to add
some new paths, and new resting places, new sratching post, litter,
food bowls, and introduce the new cat to all those new things - hand-
walk them over the new paths a few times - while keeping the others
out of the way a while. Then the new paths will have new cat smells,
and the new cat will be able to get to littler, water, and food, by
NEW paths, and have a new place to hang out that is NOT higher than
the old cats' favorite perches. (There is relevance to the term "top
cat" in that regard).
Then have the new one on your lap and introduce him to the others as
family using familiar words like "gently" and whatever other words
you understand between you, YOU the "topcat" are inviting him to the
family if you do it this way, and allowing all to have specific
territory.

So he again had a need for home and felt a lack of good acceptance.
He may fear lack of acceptance where he wants to feel at home.
Fear of losing his security.
This is proof he has associated security with you now.
Some ideas:
Make some cat-paths for him, to increase his territory.
(The Cat House" is an excellent book with ideas.)
Have some toys, and rotate them - some this month, some next month
alternating.
Have something you do every day with him, at the same time - so he
can rely on it.
I believe: He was trying to overcome them so as to evict them - but
by dominance rather than trying to injure them.
He would have wanted them evicted rather than joining them as a
society. Partly I think that is due to his background and the way he
was "added" as a separate clan fending for himself in the house
rather than introduced to the current cats as a new clan member.
So while it seems unfriendly - it is understandable for self-
preservation and security with his background.
By then he had "learned" that this is how it is with other cats. He
lacked a friendly cat society experience I think.
He may have been an underdog with them too, it would make sense as he
was young and also if he decided to split off from them and seek a
house - persistently.

I think by now he feels his security threatened any time there are
more cats to compete for the space.
He may also like a house but NOT like crowds.
He left the original gang too, so he is not "fond of crowds". (rubric)
No, not with so many cats.
After all he lost the argument with the two older cats, why would be
feel able to win over 20 cdats?
He may have been acting out of bravado or fear or both. He's have
been stressed either way.
What kind of eruptions?
another good rubric
Also useful....
Typical of some constitutional types.
Good plan.
What kind of talking: You get various kinds of talking:
For example Phos will talk about anything and everything - who is
doing what where and why....
But for example when Lachesis talks they have something relevant and
meaningful to say, and they expect you to at least try to understand.
(Like they will say an earthquake is coming, or your friend visited,
or you are about to have a heart attack, or they want to go for a
walk NOW, etc)
Lyc on the other hand is more the lover-boy talker, who chirrups
sweet nothings in your ear.
Ignatia has demanding (call your attention) type of talking, and
Sulph talks in order to brag.
Lachesis has eyes that look right through you - a more wild look -
and they also can not stand too much stroking.
But they always give a clear warning before they bite - there's that
"look" which says:
"Leave me alone NOW, because this is your first and last and only
warning!"
- and if not heeded right away, they waste no time explaining what
way is up. But if you heed the warning they will not bite.

Ignatia has big beautiful deep eyes, and also a strong but more
anxious looking way of staring at you, to try to get you to do what
they want. They will bite more suddenly (a strong grip to hold you
where they want you) if they just think you might not do as their
eyes say they want you to do).
Capricious appetite rubric
Luise,
I believe one can see his innate constitutional type (ICT) based on
this info, maybe you see it too. Here are the rubrics I suggest you
consider. One can make a shorter list but with ICT I tend to go
longer, to get fine-tuning:-)
Perhaps when we understand a cat's personality and get along better
when we understand the ICT.
This one (and I think he needs some!) is based on:

MIND - AILMENTS FROM - anger - anxiety; with
MIND - AILMENTS FROM - disappointment
MIND - AILMENTS FROM - disappointment - new
MIND - AILMENTS FROM - friendship; deceived
MIND - AILMENTS FROM - homesickness
MIND - AILMENTS FROM - love; disappointed
MIND - AILMENTS FROM - position; loss of
MIND - ANGER - sudden - alternating with - cheerfulness
MIND - ANXIETY - house, in - amel.
MIND - APPROACHED by persons; being - agg.
MIND - BITING
MIND - CAPRICIOUSNESS - rejecting the things for which he has been
longing; when offered, he is
MIND - COMPANY - aversion to
MIND - CONFIDENCE - want of self-confidence
MIND - CONSOLATION - agg. - sympathy agg.
MIND - CONTRADICTION - disposition to contradict
MIND - DEFIANT
MIND - DESPAIR - social position, of
MIND - DWELLS - past disagreeable occurrences, on
MIND - EATING - refuses to eat
MIND - ERUPTIONS; mental symptoms after suppressed
MIND - FEAR - betrayed; of being
MIND - FEAR - narrow place, in
MIND - FEAR - rejection; of
MIND - FEAR - social position; about his
MIND - GRIEF - offenses; from long past
MIND - INCONSOLABLE
MIND - IRRITABILITY - contradiction; from - slightest; at
MIND - LOQUACITY - alternating with - taciturnity
MIND - MENTAL SYMPTOMS - alternating with - mental symptoms; other
MIND - MOOD - changeable
MIND - OBSTINATE
MIND - RAGE - contradiction, from
MIND - SENSITIVE - reprimands, to
MIND - STRIKING
MIND - THOUGHTS - persistent
MIND - TOUCHED - aversion to be
EYE - STARING
FACE - EXPRESSION - anxious
STOMACH - APPETITE - capricious appetite

Remedy is Ignatia.
Do you agree?

They can be a tricky type to live with, as they are so emotionally
needy and yet so hard to touch or console or have as company.
Helps to build their confidence and to have a routine that they can
count on. Food is indeed tricky with them. They often desire what
aggravates. Rough food is liked and helps, not smooth, and warm is
better than cold or hot. They often take a few enthusiastic bites of
a new thing then figure it does not feel right and stop, it helps to
make changes (new introductions of protein) slowly.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

I agree with your rubrics - and also, based on that, with Ign.

However, Il below give you the physical proportions - let's see
whether the also agree with Ign.

Length from neck to root of tale: 45 cms.

Height of back when standing on all 4 paws: 38 cms. About half of that
is legs, the other half body.

Tail: 22 cms and thin.Thin perhaps because the fur on it isclose to
the skin (I dnever tried to find out with other cats, how much of the
apperance of their tail is due to the fur:-)

One other thing: he likes salt and seasoned food.

--------

If you stick with Ign - how should I dose it?

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========