Minutus

Hi List,

I think that both the claim that the Spanish Flu was caused by either
vaccination or toxidity and the idea that aspirin cuase the deaths can
safely be called a myth.

I do not think that there was so much more aspirin and vaccination (if
any) in the colonies and in the indenigous populations of the world to
account for a partly much higher infection resp. death rate in at
least some of them.

The death rates were a lot higher in India at one extreme of the globe
(5% as compared to world-wide 1%) and with the indigenous population
of the Sami in Norway at the other extreme end of the globe (3 to 5
times higher)

As to India I have only read the percentage - but as to the Sami a
study was done

The Spanish Influenza among Norwegian ethnic minorities 1918-1919
(2001)
Cached:
Download as a PDF
by Svenn-erik Mamelund, Svenn-erik Mamelund, Svenn-erik Mamelund
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/2001-11.pdf
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@MISC{Mamelund01thespanish,
author = {Svenn-erik Mamelund and Svenn-erik Mamelund and
Svenn-erik Mamelund},
title = {The Spanish Influenza among Norwegian ethnic minorities
1918-1919},
year = {2001}
}
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Abstract:

There are few previous studies that have applied multivariate methods
to analyse Spanish Influenza mortality, and for the very first time,
Spanish Flu morbidity and case fatality rates are analysed. Previous
studies have reported that indigenous populations were the prime
victims of Spanish Influenza. The explanations put forward in those
studies were not convincing, however, as no controls were made for
possibly confounding factors. This paper documents for the first time
that areas with high shares of an indigenous population, the Norwegian
Sami, have high Spanish Influenza mortality and lethality, net of such
confounding factors as wealth, crowding, height, occupational
structure, settlement patterns and diffusion. The cause is probably a
lack of inherited and acquired immunity against influenza among the
Sami. Another ethnic Norwegian minority, Kven (Finnish immigrants and
their descendants), however, did not differ significantly from the
Spanish Influenza mortality and lethality of the Norwegian majority
population. Svenn-Erik Mamelund 3 1.

The full study can be read at
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/2001-11.pdf

Regards

Luise

--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Much info here
http://www.whale.to/v/spanish_flu.html
The Spanish Flu massacre
Diseases

"Funny how, in the discussion of the 1918 epidemic, no mention of a vaccine is ever made. Today, historians say that the epidemic happened because there was no vaccine."-- Hilary Butler
[The great Epidemic Fearmongering flag of the virus hunting industry. This made sure everyone was terrified of viruses (mind viruses), which could have been the main purpose of this raid. See: The Secret History Of The Atomic Bomb by Eustace C. Mullins . Have a look at the deaths caused by just one vaccine, smallpox, in the Philippines 1905-1920 , around the same time. Also think of (mostly) vaccine induced Gulf War Syndrome where (2003) about 209,000 Gulf War [One] veterans have filed claims with the Veterans Administration, and 161,000 of them are receiving disability payments.]

See: Gulf War Syndrome The Virus hunters Poisoning your own troops
See vaccines: Cholera Diptheria Smallpox Tetanus Typhoid Tuberculin vaccines

Quotes

Was The 'Spanish Flu' Epidemic Man-Made? Sixty Million Dead In 1918-19 By Henry Makow PhD

Spanish flu and Aspirin

The Spanish Influenza Epidemic of 1918 was caused by vaccinations---E. McBean (Swine Flu Expose)

Spanish Flu?
Flu pandemic of 1918 by Tom Keske

There is evidence that the Spanish Flu did have hemorrhagic symptoms

Some history of the treatment of epidemics with Homeopathy by Julian Winston

[Media Ireland, May 8 2003] Vaccine not virus responsible for Spanish flu
[New Zealand 1911] Vaccines and Sera purchased and sold at the Vaccine Station for the Year ending 31st December 1911
To see how many vaccines the soldiers could have received see the Wikipedia start dates:

* 1796 First vaccine for smallpox , first vaccine for any disease
* 1879 First vaccine for cholera
* 1881 First vaccine for anthrax
* 1882 First vaccine for rabies
* 1890 First vaccine for tetanus
* 1890 First vaccine for diphtheria
* 1896 First vaccine for typhoid fever
* 1897 First vaccine for plague

much more at webpage
Sheri
------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm & http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases Reality
Next classes start April 22 & 23

Hi Luise,

The aspirin connection has been specific to certain diseases, in
particular to the 1918 flu epidemic. That seems to be well
established, and presumably because certain effects of aspirin (incl.
blood thinning??) were "(It's also implicated as an occasional cause of
Reyes Syndrome in children recovering from a virus.)
Cheers,
Shannon

Ah Luise, I just don't know much of anything about the experiences in
the specific areas. I did not mean to say aspirin would have been the
*only* factor to determine severity, but the observation was made
numerous times by numerous homeopaths that, in that *particular* flu
epidemic, aspirin was kind of a "kiss of death". I did not mean to say
there were no other factors, nor that aspirin is *usually* so
poisonous. But it does seem an important factor to keep in mind for
this one...
Best wishes,
Shannon

Hi Shannon,
Well, I know what you say above, but:

Do you think that in those days in the colonies (India) people werde
taking so much more aspirin por so much more people were taing aspirin
than in the Western countries to account for the much, much higher
death rate in India?

Do you think that one of the the indigenous populations of Norway (the
Sami) had was caused by them taking so much more aspirin than the
rest of Norway?

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

On the evidence left by homeopaths treating in 1918 (I don't know of any from Norway's Sami population, nor from India, I have only read cases left mostly by U.S. based homeopaths.)
... aspirin was said to contribute to death.
My only hypothesis about this would be aspirin's well known antipyretic action
--because "in theory" (allopathic theory) aspirin's anti-inflammatory action should have alleviated somewhat .. the cytokine storm which resulted in pulmonary edema which was the primary proximate cause of death.
Many citations that patients were harder to cure when symptoms progressed to pneumonia -- are likely to ACTUALLY be referring to pulmonary edema (a leading symptom of pneumonia, which is differentially diagnosed as "infection in the lungs.")

More supposition on my part, based on my available information:
If the body's natural defense of fever does not become in itself a threat to survival, it may likely be that those cases untreated by antipyretic respond to homeopathic treatment without going toward pulmonary edema.

quote from Julian Winston:
Perhaps the most recent use of homeopathy in a major epidemic was during the Influenza Pandemic of 1918. The Journal of the American Institute for Homeopathy, May, 1921, had a long article about the use of homeopathy in the flu epidemic. Dr. T A McCann, from Dayton, Ohio reported that 24,000 cases of flu treated allopathically had a mortality rate of 28.2% while 26,000 cases of flu treated homeopathically had a mortality rate of 1.05%. This last figure was supported by Dean W.A. Pearson of Philadelphia (Hahnemann College) who collected 26,795 cases of flu treated with homeopathy with the above result.
The most common remedy used was Gelsemium, with occasional cases needingBryonia and Eupatorium reported. Dr. Herbert A. Roberts from Derby, CT, said that 30 physicians in Connecticut responded to his request for data. They reported 6,602 cases with 55 deaths, which is less than 1%. Dr. Roberts was working as a physician on a troop ship during WWI. He had 81 cases of flu on the way over to Europe. He reported, "All recovered and were landed. Every man received homeopathic treatment. One ship lost 31 on the way."
warm wishes,
david 510.776.5914 fax: 510.336.6671
www.holistiq.com
www.DavidHartley.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer: www.iamResourceful.com

> Do you think that in those days in the colonies (India) people werde

Considering that flus of this type seem to have a worse impact on really
*healthy* people, I would suspect that in a population with more strong,
healthy immune systems, you'd see more fatalities. It may be that people in
India and Norway had stronger immune systems from healthy living, and were
ironically more susceptible to the cascade effect.
Cee

Hi David,
Yes, I am aware of that.
Mine would be thae propensity of aspirin to causse bleeding.

In many cases of that flu, most often in those that had rapidly
progressed to death, the lung was full of fluid, part of it blood.

Research on the virus that caused the Spanish Flu has shown that a
specific protein of that virus causes bleeding. This is considered by
mainstream science to be the reason for the bleeding.

So I think that perhaps aspirin - which was given in very strong doses
(to about half the lethal dose) increased that bleeding, just as ist
does e.g. in cases of stomach ulcer.

So, just as Shannon also said, I think that maybe aspirin contributed
to the severity and death, that, however, it did not cause it.

I personally think that fever should be left alon in any case as long
as it is no threat to the patient.

The problem is that (all???) pain relieving medication seems to have
the side effect of lowering the fever - and relief from pain is
certainly desirable, since pain is an additional stress on a system
already stressed by fighting the infection.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Luise,

Yes, I suppose cytokine storm is just a hypothesis (and an allopathic one at that
-but as hypotheses go, I think it is a relatively accepted "working" one.
Your reference is interesting, but only two (.5) human subjects;
it is fairly well known that pregnancy confers all sorts of oddments in the immune realm,
so the male subject confirms the "working hypothesis" while the pregnant female presents an anomaly.
The mice ? Dunno. Not so up on the coherence of data from lab tortured animals with humans.
To some extent, the transgressions against old concepts such as preserving "sanctity of blood" and the immorality of "vivisection" ... seem to be biting us in the butt (or lungs, as the case may be.)

I think this lays out current "working hypothesis" re cytokine storm.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/352/18/1839
http://www.cytokinestorm.com
I'm noticing that hemorrhage is noted in the NEJM report, and that fever is cited 38c = 101.4f -far below dangerous temperature, so pain relief might be presumed to be the purpose of giving aspirin.
I'd forgotten that aspirin used to be dosed really high, and it does seem that those high doses would contribute to any tendency for hemorrhage which exists within that actual data .. as well as the cytokine storm model.
Why the allopaths would STILL recommend aspirin in an illness with potential hemorrhage is another question.
Anyhow.
Homeopathic treatment would, according to the modelling of the 1918 pandemic and the "cytokine storm" -be almost trivial (choice between just a few very well known Rx often used in flu) in the earliest stage ... but fairly rapidly (within 2-3 days) possibly a fast-paced effort against possible permanent lung damage, or widespread organ collapse and permanent death (well, a permanent withdrawal of indwelling spirit-like essence from the impermanent body in question

I suppose the process of identifying a "genus epidemicus" in one's locale, and attempting homeoprophylaxis would be worth doing.

It looks like we don't need to worry about this one, though as
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano says (26 Apr 2009) that the US should
prepare for a new flu pandemic -- even if this one 'fizzles out.'

Seems the pandemic makers were only having a test run?
warm wishes,
david 510.776.5914 fax: 510.336.6671
www.holistiq.com
www.DavidHartley.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer: www.iamResourceful.com

Hi David,
This issue does not seem to be settled yet - it is only a hypothesis.

I found something about it on pubmed:

****************

1: J Pathol. 2008 Nov;216(3):328-36.
Distinctly different expression of cytokines and chemokines in the
lungs of two H5N1 avian influenza patients.
Deng R, Lu M, Korteweg C, Gao Z, McNutt MA, Ye J, Zhang T, Gu J.

Department of Pathology, School of Basic Medical Sciences, Peking
University, Beijing, People's Republic of China.

The pathogenesis of human H5N1 influenza remains poorly understood and
controversial. 'Cytokine storm' has been hypothesized to be the main
cause of the severity of this disease. However, the significance of
this hypothesis has been called into question by a recent report,
which demonstrates that inhibition of the cytokine response did not
protect against lethal H5N1 influenza infection in mice. Here we
showed discrepant findings in two adult H5N1 autopsies and a fetus
obtained at autopsy which also raise doubt about this hypothesis.
Antigens of 10 cytokines/chemokines which were found to be
significantly elevated in previous H5N1-infected patients and in vitro
experiments, and mRNA of eight of these, were absent from the lungs of
a pregnant woman and her fetus. In contrast, antigens of seven
cytokines/chemokines and mRNA of six of these were found to be
increased in the lungs of a male autopsy. The cells expressing these
cytokines and chemokines were identified as type II pneumocytes,
bronchial epithelial cells, macrophages and vascular endothelial
cells. Levels of cytokines and chemokines in the serum of the male
case were also significantly higher than those of infectious
(infection other than by H5N1) and non-infectious controls. In
comparison with results from our previous study, it appeared that the
male case had increased cytokine/chemokine expression but reduced
viral load, while the pregnant female had diminished
cytokine/chemokine expression but a significantly increased viral load
in the lungs. These disparate findings in these two cases suggest that
'cytokine storm' alone could not be a sufficient explanation for the
severe lung injury of this newly emerging disease. (c) 2008
Pathological Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Published by John
Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

PMID: 18788084 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

*************

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========