Minutus

Dear colleagues

Whilst we were discussing abortion, one of the reasons given for the wish to have an abortion was if the child was the product of an incestuous relationship. This was passed very quickly without comment or discussion.

Disgusting and worrying though it is - and although frowned up on by most cultures, it seems that a number of fathers sexually assault their daughters (and sons) and some brothers their sisters. There are of course cases of sexual relationships between mothers and sons but I guess it is rare.

One of a recent TV programmes I saw on prostitution in UK indicated that most of the girls involved had had a history of incest and sexual abuse at the home and had in effect escaped to London (or nearest large city) but then because of poverty and (perhaps also drug addiction) had become a prostitute.

What is the evidence from your cases and also from those you know?
How bad is it really?
Does poverty and small living accommodation have anything to do with it?
Is over consumption of alcohol a contributing factor?
What are reasons might there be?

I look forward to your contributions
Soroush
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In the US, incest is rampant. And as you said, it is mainly fathers
attacking and abusing their own daughters, and some male younsters
attacking their sisters. Mainly.

I have wondered a lot about the reasons for this.

One thought that came to my mind when I was a young woman, and I still
believe that it is so, is the following:

ALMOST all cultures in the world, and definitely the large religions
have TABOOS on incest.

The fact that there is a TABOO in the first place, indicates to me
clearly, that there is some kind of innate tendency for those behaviors
that are forbidden by Taboo. Otherwise, why would a taboo be necessary?

When I studied Freudian psychoanalysis, it was surely a part of the
conceptualization (ie., the 'natural' tendency...) but Freud
conveniently 'blamed' the offspring, both male and especially female,
for 'WANTING' this type of relationship with a parent. You can imagine
that I did not turn out to be a Freudian analyst....Rather, the Jungian
conceptualization of the Collective Unconscious sits much better with my
understanding of our world, and fits better with my understanding of
Hahnemann and Homeopathy.... And in this respect, I do believe that the
Collective Unconscious is repleat with impulses and drives, fed by
history, societal dogma, religion, and of late, by the Media, TV, and
the Movies, which largely contribute at least to our KNOWING and HEARING
more about incest. I believe that it was prevalent throughout ancient
and modern history, but was not reported, especially due to the fact
that girls and women in general, have not been believed, men have not
been subject to punishment, and women and girls were looked upon as
posessions and had very little protection under ANY law.

Lots to think about....

Sara

Finrod wrote:

Soroush,

Throughout this whole discussion, you seem resistent to the ideas of the women here, almost to a one. Incest is not related to any one class of people or living conditions. It is very simple. In a patriarchal society men derive power as power over women and women are not treated as equal in any of the culture's institutions. Women are viewed, in various degrees, as chattel property; their labor in the culture is not valued equally and neither are their needs or wishes. Alcohol may be an excuse for sexual assault, but is not necessary. And I dont think case records will reveal the effects of poverty, at least in the US where people need to be able to afford homeopathy. I can say that the cases of sexual abuse reported by women of middle-class backgrounds is quite huge.

Patriarchy, patronization and prejudice need to be looked at seriously. As regards your position on abortion, I might suggest that when you become pregnant, feel free to not abort.

tanya

Dear Tanya and Soroush,

Interesting reactions all around...

I cannot agree with the idea that incest is a part of a "patriarchal society" as this does not include women who are sexually abusive and/or incestuous. I think it would be more appropriate to try and illustrate the types of people, men or women, who prey on others, including family members.

Additionally, while it is probably true that incest/sexual abuse is not related to any particular class, there has been a dramatic increase in the late reporting of incest/sexual abuse in the middle classes. Long term follow up on these cases (in psychology/counselling circles) has concluded that a portion of these incidents were the direct result of suggestive therapies, including guided imagery, support groups, TV shows, etc.

Overall, the responses I hoped to read on this list was some thoughts on the influence of Miasms! If a family had a history of a sexual disease (or something) that included a overly strong sexual desire or little satisfaction from sex - would not that overcome the more normal parental/familial feelings? Turning individuals or entire families into expressing a more base/animalistic sexual desire?

And, wouldn't chronic alcoholism or poverty also point to a more miasmatic cause?

Sincerely,
Natasha
Homeopathic Student

Natasha wrote:
Yes it does. Women live in, and participate in (easy to do, if you're not aware and not vigilant) this patriarchal society too. "Patriarchal society" refers to the structure of the society's institutions, and not to the gender of the people who live in it.
Incest is a phenomenon focused on the issue of power and domination, enacted in every single class of society. There have always been institutions in our society which enforce the idea that women's experience of abuse throughout their lives (spousal abuse, incest, rape, sexism, etc) are all non-existent, all "made up". I believe what I see and hear in my consulting room: the alarmingly widespread occurence of incest impacts women and children from every background, every economic class, every race in our (patriarchal) culture...when I hear the media make light of this and dismiss women and children who tell of their experiences, I take their "dismissal" with a grain of salt. After all, what do people stand to gain from telling people they experienced something so painful? Why would anyone make such a thing up, when it carries such a massive, punishing stigma?

And, wouldn't chronic alcoholism or poverty also point to a more miasmatic cause?

Evidence does not bear this out. Alcoholism and poverty are not necessary for people to want to commit violence against others. These are just other symptoms present in the miasms--they may or may not coincide with violent behaviours against others.

Regards,
Nancy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tanya said:

"Soroush,
Throughout this whole discussion, you seem resistent to the ideas of the
women here, almost to a one. "

Please, is this emotion felt by the other members of this list?

Rgds
Soroush

I simply think there are *several* conversations going on:

-some are about setting personal views aside in practise --- as it relates
to how we interact with our patients.
-some are about trying to understand others' views..... (I believe Soroush
is in this category)
-some are about trying to understand what motivates women to abort (Soroush
is here too I believe) and how it relates to her case and we should view it
(not personally! but as a practitioner and in the realm of the case).
-and some are about other's personal view's on abortion, parenting,
feminism, etc...

So, no I didn't get the impression Soroush was resistant to other's ideas
per se....of course he has his own views, as we all do.

But I think (correct me if I'm wrong please) Soroush simply wanted to
understand why women feel the desire/need/urge to rid themselves of an
unborn baby - for whatever reasons - and could this be considered
pathological (?). This sparked off other conversations..... some he may
agree with - some maybe not....

Also, I have found - especially on topics that are passionate such as
abortion and feminism, etc (politics and religion too;)) - that people find
it very difficult to let go of their paradigm and literally set it aside and
truly listen to someone elses.

It is a natural instinct (I think) to defend the paradigm one is comfortable
with (for obvious reasons?).
When challenged with a valid point, though, (again, I think)*this* is the
time to go off and reflect within ----- and see if the other person's
opinion/view has a valid point or not. Not many people do this --- because
of ego, comfort-zone, or whatever.... Those who are able to - gain a bit of
wisdom and grow...... in my opinion, of course;).

And I also think [abortion] is a subject which entails many factors which
are difficult to separate --- certainly difficult to discuss
dispassionately.
Just my two cents worth;)
Sincerely,
Lisa

Powerful voice of reason, guiding discussion back on topic!

THANKS, Natasha!

Sexual abuse would be most associated with Sycosis, especially
Sycosis+Psora; could also be Syphilitic+Psora..

Dunno if poverty'd be a leading indicator (I'd guess Not) -but surely
alcoholism will be WAY up there...
Dave Hartley
http://www.localcomputermart.com
Santa Cruz, CA (831)423-4284

Tri-Cities Computer (TN) |Asheville Computer (NC)
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Yes Lisa you have covered the terrain of discussion. And my point on the matter, in other words, was to assert the same assessment. Further, that our comfort zone is established by our myths, that glue which binds us as an us. The more principled and free from judgement we are as individuals the greater viability and sustainability is our mythology as a group.
Also, I have found - especially on topics that are passionate such as

What emotion?

Finrod wrote:

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