Minutus

Dear All,

I had an interesting interchange with Dr. Leela and wanted to share it because I am hoping that there are more physiological insights into Homeopathy elsewhere. She has an article that presents miasms from a physiological perspective. I wish I had the original website for you. The title is:

Miasms in Case Management
Part 2: Disease Evolution and its Miasmatic Expression

http://www.hpathy.com/philosophy/dsouza-miasm2.asp

Here is my opening comment:
I just read your interesting article on Miasams as Physiology.

I am just a beginning physiology student and a 3rd year homeopathy student at the Toronto School of Homeopathy. Physiological interpretations help me to get a more firm grasp of the miasmatic pictures. I am wondering if immune sensitivity reactions might not also fit into this analysis. I wrote this footnote to a paper that I wrote recently, but don't expect any response. I am wondering what you think. I am just repeating what I read in my physiology textbook. I may misunderstand.
It is possible that the since the Type I hypersensitivity reactions are of the psoric type. They occur at the level of blood vessel dilation. Mostly the cells close to the skin are affected. Type II is only in some rare diseases. Type III activates the immune system, antigens and the complex cascades. Scar tissue-like obstructions are left in the tissues such as the blood vessels. Thus, entire organ systems are damaged. These are more similar to the sycotic and in more advanced stages syphilitic tissue damage. Type IV hypersensitivity reactions include tubercular reactions (Kumar 205-217). It is delayed hypersensitivity.
This physiology may apply to miasmatic divisions that you wrote about.

Thank-you,

Ellen Madono

Here's her answer:

YEs I think that is a good miasmatic interpretation of hypresensitivity.

Delayed, cell mediate hypersensitivity would be Tubercular-syphilitic depending on the expression of the individual. So there is an "active" interpretation of dominant miasmatic expression.
IF more descrtruction is prevelant in the expression, syphilitic may be predominant. If more haemorrahgic with scar tissue formation it would be tubercular.
Even Type 1 and Type 2, could have a tinge of tubercular if there is a haemorrhagic tendency in the presentation. It means that the individual has a tubercular tendency in addition to the basic miasmatic interpretation of the disease diagnosis.
Hope that doesnt' sound confusing.
nice to hear for you. Been a long time since I could get onto the List - I'm busy with both an MD (hom) and an MSc. Hope to meet you all again when I"m through with those.
warm regards,

Hi Ellen

You might be interested to read the set of books by Dr. Prafull Vijayakar. – Predictive Homoeopathy series.

I have three, but there may be more. There are charts in these books showing the dermal layers, and associated disease processes and miasm correlation.

They are inexpensive books and worth having in your collection if you are interested in physiology in relation to Hom.
Robyn
Subject: [Minutus] Miasm physiology
Dear All,

I had an interesting interchange with Dr. Leela and wanted to share it because I am hoping that there are more physiological insights into Homeopathy elsewhere. She has an article that presents miasms from a physiological perspective. I wish I had the original website for you. The title is:

Hi Robyn,

glad this came up.

I have been wondering how Dr. V. arranges his layers, i. e. which he
considers the most superficial, which the medium and which the deepest
as concerns his theory of miasms.

I read one of his books and found the theory - but I have forgotten
the answer to the above question.

Thanks

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Luise

Briefly – he offers 7 layers in this order à 1st Ectoderm, 2nd Endoderm, 3rd Connective tissue, 4th Mesoderm, 5th Neuro Endocrine, 6th Neural plate, 7th The Cell.

Within each of these layers, all three of Psoric, Sycotic, and Syphilitic miasms are represented, showing a progression.

Certain disease processes and of course the organs concerned are also represented in the appropriate columns.

The direction of disease progress is indicated by arrows, and Cure progress as well.
Robyn
"We must become knowing, only through searching for the truth inside ourselves." - OM 20:34
-------------------
I have been wondering how Dr. V. arranges his layers, i. e. which he
considers the most superficial, which the medium and which the deepest
as concerns his theory of miasms.

I read one of his books and found the theory - but I have forgotten
the answer to the above question.

Thanks

Regards

Luise
_

Hi,

Yes, I have been puzzling over Vijayakar's layers too. I think you have to study embryology for it to make perfect sense. He is not very explanatory. I am wishing someone with more training could point me in the right direction. For those who have not seen the book it is called Predictive Homeopathy Part I: Theory of Suppressions. To avoid suppression of disease during homeopathic treatment, Vijayakar says that Herrings law in physiological and embrological detail must follow the following tissue types. To judge if a remedy is working, we need to be able to follow symptoms from the higher numbers (layers) below to the lower numbers. He gives 7 layers or stages of disease. I am using 1-7 to mean layers or stages of disease. The first lay is a more superficial disease stage..

1.) Ectoderm a.) Skin. b.) the anterior epithelium of the cornea, anterior epithelium of the conjunctiva and epithelium of iris, Lens of eyes (1st stage cataract), Hair (excluding roots), nails, tooth enamel. e.) External auditory canal, tympanic membrane, lower part of anal canal, terminal part of male urethra, outer par to vagina. f.) Lips, cheeks, gums, outer part of tonsils.
2.) Endodermal germ layer initially forms the epithelial lining of the primitive gut and the intraembryonic portions of the of the allatois and vitelline duct. These give rise to the (epithelium) mucus membrane that lines all the respiratory; urinary; digestive organs, Paranchyma (functionally specific cells of organs) of the thyroid parthyroid, liver and pancreas, the reticular stoma of the tonsils and thymus, the epithelial lining of the tympanic cavity and auditory tube (Sadler Medical embryology p. 81) Epithelium of gall bladder, extra hepatic duct, endodermal cells of liver parenchyma, Vijayakar says the disturbances would be in the mucus membrane and not in the parechyma.
3.) Connective Tissues (I think this would include tissues such as those surrounding the eye ball. Thus, Symphtum is for ligaments and for eyeball injuries- eg. retinal tears). In the embryo these tissue types are divided into a.) Dermatome (outermost dermis or the connective tissue including the basement membrane and the loose connective tissues of the skin) b.) Myotome - muscles c.) Sclerotome 0 bones and cartilages
4.) Vijayakaran has a 4th stage of diseases that include the lung parechyma, kidney, muscles forming the trachea, angioblastic product (e.g. hear, blood vessels, blood cells (from mesenchyme). Viscera covers of organs. (pleura, peritonium, pericadium, duramatter, piamater, spleen, liver (all capsule and fibrous tissue diseases)
5.) Nero-endocrine: secrete hormones.
Neural crest origin: Thyroid, adrenal medulla (adrenaline and noradrenalin), Demis-melanoblasts, Uro-genital tract secreting 5-hydroxytrytamine ( agents w/ affinity for serotonin receptors
Neuro Ectodermal orgining: Hypothalamus, parathyroid, pituitary (oxytocin, vasopressin, thyrotropin releasing factor)
Cells secreting neuro-transmitters or hormones in other organs (pacreas-islets of langerhans secreting insulin, glucagon, enkephelin, motilin, ccholecystokinin, neurotensin, secretin, etc.
6.) Neuro-ectodermal (first the sympathetic and then the central nervous system.) why this order?
5.) Neuroplate forming in the 2nd month of embrological development. Don't know why this is a better description than saying just the nerves, except this must be a clear differentiation from nero-endocrine.
6.) Cell (Total jump in level of analysis throws me. Why do this?
7.) Mind that is somehow related to the genetic code. Here Vijayakaran gets into the classical description of the 4 miasms.

From level 7, Dr. Vijayakar say the level then go back to the ectoderm, level 1 (Theory of Suppressions p. 38). This is because the ectoderm forms the tissues of the skin and also of the brain. For that reason (I think) at level 7, he jumps from mind to the miasms. Likewise, toxins are throw from the center of they organism in either of two directions from neuro to meso, to endo to ecto or in the opposite direction from neuro to ecto, endo to meso (p. 56). The point is in keeping with Herrings law, starting with neuro (-ecto) you start with the top, most important brain, most inner. This means you could go from mind symptoms to skin (most outer periphery)? in the progression toward a noon-suppressive cure? The whole point of VIjayakar's book is to avoid suppression using homeopathic remedies by following his more complex version of Herrings law.
Dr. Vijayakaran does not say this, but from the little I know, in any organ, there is a mixture of tissues with different embryological origins. These days patients can often identify the diseased tissue type. If they can't tell you, you can see that probably the same tissue types are weak. You are then greatly aided in creating generalities among symptoms. That is, if you have a complex case , you can cover same tissue aggravations or symptoms with one general symptom. You can do this when these symptoms occur in apparently unrelated areas of the body.
Also, Herring's law can be extremely confusing, as Vijayakar describes in his book. You need some clearer guidelines to help you decide is the symptom going actually from more essential organ to less essential organ. This hierarchy of tissue types helps to make the differentiation less complex only because it is more complex. Vithoukas says the same thing in more vague terms.
Miasms

EctodePsora

Sycotic
Ectoderm, Nervous system, endocrine system, blood vessels, liver skin

Entoderm, soft tissues, internal organs, pelvis, sexual organs, blood

Mesoderm, soft tissues and bone, glandular (esp. lymph)
Banerjea uses these same terms in describing tissues in his Miasmatic prescription. So I assume that what Vijayakar is elaborating on what is common place among Indian homeopaths who have firm medical educations.
Best,
Ellen Madono

Hi Ellen,

my problem with this approach has been very basic: I do not understand
how Dr. V. gets to the relative importance/depth of the respective
layers.

Here is why: (from the net)

***********
The embryo in the blastula stage must go through profound
transformations
before it can approach adult organization. An adult multicellular
animal
typically possesses a concentric arrangement of tissues of the body;
this
feature is common to all animal groups above the level of the sponges.
Adult tissues are derived from three embryonic cell layers called
germinal
layers: the outer layer is the ectoderm, the middle layer is the
mesoderm,
and the innermost layer is the endoderm (entoderm).
*************

So far I can follow. But then:

******************

The ectoderm gives
rise to the skin covering,** to the nervous system**, and to the sense
organs.
The mesoderm produces the muscles, excretory organs, **circulatory
organs,**
**sex organs (gonads),** and internal skeleton. The endoderm ** lines
the
alimentary canal and gives rise to the organs associated with
digestion
and, in chordates, with breathing**.
*******

Or here, from
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... ekey=20835

******************

Definition of Ectoderm

Ectoderm: One of the three primary germ cell layers (the other two
being the mesoderm and endoderm) that make up the very early embryo.
The ectoderm is the outermost of the three layers. It differentiates
to give rise to many important tissues and structures including the
outer layer of the skin and its appendages (the sweat glands, hair,
and nails), the teeth, the lens of the eye, parts of the inner ear,
**the nerves, brain, and spinal cord**. This much is classic human
embryology.

****************

I just do not see how the sex-organs (procreation being the VERY basic
of every living being) and brain and spinal cord (which includes all
from the very primitive nervous systems to the human brain) could be
more superficial than the endoderm:

***********

The endoderm consists at first of flattened cells, which subsequently
become columnar. It forms the epithelial lining of the whole of the
digestive tube except part of the mouth, pharynx and the terminal part
of the rectum (which are lined by involutions of the ectoderm), the
lining cells of all the glands which open into the digestive tube,
including those of the liver and pancreas, the epithelium of the
auditory tube and tympanic cavity, of the trachea, bronchi, and
alveoli of the lungs, of the urinary bladder and part of the urethra,
and that which lines the follicles of the thyroid gland and thymus.

**************

So I figured: If I cannot agree even to the most basic part of Dr. V's
teaching I better not spend too much time and energy on it. I did read
on to the parts you mentionen in your mail but predictably I could not
follow the logic since I considered the basics absurd.

But perhaps somewhere in his books Dr. V. explains this contradicition
more fully. If so, I should like to find out where. After such
explanation I might try again.

Regards

Luise

btw: Hering's law or rule is a misnomer. Hering never said it - he
stuck to Hahnemann's view, i. e. that the symptoms are liable to
disappear onthe reversed time scale: the latest to come go first,
then the previous to the latest etc.

Hering's law should be named Kent's law. It was Kent who taught it,
based on his philosphical/religious beliefs (Swedenborg)

I am just as surprised as you are liable to be. I mentioned "Hering's"
Law on the German list, they told me the above and provided any amount
of back-up evidence.
The ectoderm gives
rise to the skin covering, to the nervous system, and to the sense
organs.
The mesoderm produces the muscles, excretory organs, circulatory
organs,
sex organs (gonads), and internal skeleton. The endoderm lines the
alimentary canal and gives rise to the organs associated with
digestion
and, in chordates, with breathing.
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Luise,
Thanks you for your detailed reply. I have been trying to understand before I make a judgment. Vijayakaran writes as if his reader had a medical education. I don't, but that is not a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. For the moment, I am going to ignore your decision that this is all trash just because you seem to have put some thought into it. Writing about this helps me to clarify my thoughts. I would be interested in reading your assessment.

From the little bit that I have been able to pick up by skimming through the embrology textbook that I have, at some point early on (6 weeks?), the round shaped cells ball with the endoderm on the outside turns inside out. Contrary to what you read on the web, at before turning inside out, the endoderm is on the outside. Maybe the process of turning inside out is the source of the idea that the inside of the ball relates the mind and the skin (Vijayakaran p,. 56). After turning inside out, the ball begins forming a spinal cord and brain pushing in the direction opposite the direction of the tail. Perhaps some of the ectoderm differentiates inside the ball to begin forming the nervous system. Most of the development takes place at that brain end of course. Somehow, a skin has to also begin forming. That is the ectoderm that you read about on the web. Since the ball is turned inside out, the endoderm is then inside the ball. The mucus membranes are of course inside all the tubular organs with epidermal (skin) cells on the outside of that organ. So the basic formation is the familiar one.

If you look again at the levels, you will see that endoderm is level two just above the skin. So your protest is probably due to a memory mistake. Muscles (Mesenchymal cells) are level 3. Above that are the complex organs which are not part of the simple cellular developmental order that I just described. I think I have to read more to find out if there is an embryological basis for the levels above the Mesenchymal cells. They do know very precisely which cells develop in which order because the order is the same for a chick and a human. Of course they test bird eggs because they are so big and easy to handle. This kind of study is worthwhile if only to be able to categorize the tissue types involved. If embryological developmental order is significant, that's just icing on the cake.

If nothing else, for the beginning student, this division into layers of disease tells you something about how serious tissue damage is. Also, it warns you that simple inside to outside, up to down will not work. I am very curious what the Germans told you about how you follow the progress of a case and decide if it is going in the direction of cure or in the direction of suppression.

Also, Vijayakaran is saying something about miasim and disease that seems intuitively right. That is, any disease, miasm or remedy picture has more and less serious disease levels. By dividing these different disease levels into miasmatic manifestations (p, 40-53) , he is not allowing you to make the common assumption that miasmatic disease starts with the Psoric superficial to the deeper levels of sycotic and syphilitic in that order. To some extent that's true , but you know from experience that you can have a very disturbed vital force at the Psoric level. Comparing two individiuals one with a small syphilitic abcess and the other a completely broken down psoric constitution, the syphilitic abscess would seem less deep than that the obvious total system psoric disease. You are told it is because the deeper miasms symptoms are suppressed, but still that does nothing to help you sort the evidence. Which disease belongs in which miasm is obviously not agreed upon by the various doctors, but then diseases also have degrees of involvement. Similarly, if you look at any polycrest, comparing organs and general disease conditions, there are likewise levels of disease depth. My mind needs some general framework for thinking about depth of disease. Miasms are not a total answer for me.

By the way Gerald Cizaldo has a wonderful series of lectures. I am working on the pathology and anatomy lectures, but his personal expertise is in embryology. So, I am looking forward to listening to him on that subject in the future. You can download it from itunes. Paste his name in the search window at the upper right hand window of itunes/podcasts. You don't need any particular player to download the lectures and hear them on your computer. The software is free too. He has course outlines posted on his university site. They help to follow. Also, I have found it helpful to follow him with the textbooks that he uses.

Best,
Ellen

Luise

I personally don’t see the contradiction that you mentioned.

In chapters 3 and 4 of the first book in the series, he clearly and simply explains how he arrived at his hierarchy of layers and its correlation with the so-called Hering’s Law.

I am not sure exactly what your conclusion is based on as his system seems quite logical and practical to me – and takes away the confusion of trying to work out importance of tissues, by utilising modern embryological knowledge.

I think his work is a lot more useful to explain things in light of today’s knowledge of physiology than anything that Hahnemann and his colleagues attempted to explain with the limits of their understanding of their time.
Although eg., the neural plate arises out of the ectoderm, it is a specialized type of ectoderm – neuro-ectoderm, and he has placed it in a separate and much more important category than the surface ectoderm. I can’t see an issue with this.

He claims to have tested this model out, and that it is correct. There are those who practice using this model, who are pleased with their results.
Do you think it is fair to call it absurd?
It is only a very small book – and doesn’t take long to read
Robyn
"We must become knowing, only through searching for the truth inside ourselves." - OM 20:34
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Luise Kunkle
Sent: Friday, 20 June 2008 9:17 PM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Miasm physiology
Hi Ellen,

my problem with this approach has been very basic: I do not understand
how Dr. V. gets to the relative importance/depth of the respective
layers.

Here is why: (from the net)

***********
The embryo in the blastula stage must go through profound
transformations
before it can approach adult organization. An adult multicellular
animal
typically possesses a concentric arrangement of tissues of the body;
this
feature is common to all animal groups above the level of the sponges.
Adult tissues are derived from three embryonic cell layers called
germinal
layers: the outer layer is the ectoderm, the middle layer is the
mesoderm,
and the innermost layer is the endoderm (entoderm).
*************

So far I can follow. But then:

******************

The ectoderm gives
rise to the skin covering,** to the nervous system**, and to the sense
organs.
The mesoderm produces the muscles, excretory organs, **circulatory
organs,**
**sex organs (gonads),** and internal skeleton. The endoderm ** lines
the
alimentary canal and gives rise to the organs associated with
digestion
and, in chordates, with breathing**.
*******

Or here, from
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... ekey=20835

******************

Definition of Ectoderm

Ectoderm: One of the three primary germ cell layers (the other two
being the mesoderm and endoderm) that make up the very early embryo.
The ectoderm is the outermost of the three layers. It differentiates
to give rise to many important tissues and structures including the
outer layer of the skin and its appendages (the sweat glands, hair,
and nails), the teeth, the lens of the eye, parts of the inner ear,
**the nerves, brain, and spinal cord**. This much is classic human
embryology.

****************

I just do not see how the sex-organs (procreation being the VERY basic
of every living being) and brain and spinal cord (which includes all
from the very primitive nervous systems to the human brain) could be
more superficial than the endoderm:

***********

The endoderm consists at first of flattened cells, which subsequently
become columnar. It forms the epithelial lining of the whole of the
digestive tube except part of the mouth, pharynx and the terminal part
of the rectum (which are lined by involutions of the ectoderm), the
lining cells of all the glands which open into the digestive tube,
including those of the liver and pancreas, the epithelium of the
auditory tube and tympanic cavity, of the trachea, bronchi, and
alveoli of the lungs, of the urinary bladder and part of the urethra,
and that which lines the follicles of the thyroid gland and thymus.

**************

So I figured: If I cannot agree even to the most basic part of Dr. V's
teaching I better not spend too much time and energy on it. I did read
on to the parts you mentionen in your mail but predictably I could not
follow the logic since I considered the basics absurd.

But perhaps somewhere in his books Dr. V. explains this contradicition
more fully. If so, I should like to find out where. After such
explanation I might try again.

Regards

Luise

btw: Hering's law or rule is a misnomer. Hering never said it - he
stuck to Hahnemann's view, i. e. that the symptoms are liable to
disappear onthe reversed time scale: the latest to come go first,
then the previous to the latest etc.

Hering's law should be named Kent's law. It was Kent who taught it,
based on his philosphical/religious beliefs (Swedenborg)

I am just as surprised as you are liable to be. I mentioned "Hering's"
Law on the German list, they told me the above and provided any amount
of back-up evidence.

The ectoderm gives
rise to the skin covering, to the nervous system, and to the sense
organs.
The mesoderm produces the muscles, excretory organs, circulatory
organs,
sex organs (gonads), and internal skeleton. The endoderm lines the
alimentary canal and gives rise to the organs associated with
digestion
and, in chordates, with breathing.
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Dear Robyn,
It is a small book. It takes some investigation to understand his premise. I don't think he has presented it very well given my limited education. It is the kind of knowledge that you have to really understand to use it. Anyway, I am that way. The more I investigate it, the more I think it is worthwhile.
Best,
Ellen

Hi Ellen,
Sorry, but are you not now doing that?

I never said it was all trash, even less that you should follow my
approach.

I Just said why *I* could not accept the basic idea and therefore *I*
never bothered about it further.

But thank you for the summary below - it may help me to better
understanding.
Writing

No, do read again. It says that the ectoderm deveops into skin AND
nervous system etc. Whichever way - the details are in other sections.

Since the ball is turned

I was not talking about that. My problem is that relatively! important
and unimportant adult tissue derive from each of the germinal layers,
as shown exemplarily by the ectoderm - where skin would be relatively
unimportant but sexual organs and nervaous system (brain) would be
relatively the most important.

So I cannot see where the "depth" of a disease could be related to the
germinal layer it derives from. So far the stages of the embryological
development play not role in my thinking at all.
I do not see so far the relationship of the tissue damage to the
layer. Minor tissue damage to the skin is less serious than small
tissue damage to the brain, IMO.

Also, it

Well, I have never believed in Hering's Rule.

I am
They told me nothing. They just said Hering did not coin it.

What they used to decide this is very divergent, depending on their
method, on which of the many miasm theories they follow resp. whether
they follow a miasm theory at all.
Only some of the miasm theories argue that way.
Again - the decision whether an abscess is syphilitic or not again
depends on the miasm theory the homeopath follows.

You are told it is

Exactly.

Regards

Luise
Similarly, if you look at any polycrest,

--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========