Minutus

Hi Irene,

It seems that the Royal Canin ingredients are somewhat different in
Germany.

I have translated the ingredients of the kitten variety and of one
that would apply to my cat.

Also one question: could you give me a link where to find the research
of the last 10 years or so? I tried to google "cat food research" but
the results were not what I am looking for.

Regards

Luise

Royal Canine

For kittens 4 - 12 months:
Chicken meal, rice, plant protein isolate*, animal fat, corn, corn
gluten meal, animal proteins (hydrolysed) lignocellulose, L-Lysine,
beet pulp, minerals, fish oil, yeast, soja oil, dried egg, sodium
phosphate, fructo-oligosaccharides, Mannan-oligosaccharides, Taurin,
DL-Methoniene, extragt from French Marigold, L-Carnitine

Protein 36%
Raw fat 18%
Omega 6 4%
Omega 3 0.7%

-------------------

ProPac for kittens:
Chicken Meal, Rice Flour, Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken Fat (preserved
with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Dried Egg
Product, Dried Beet Pulp, Fish Meal, Dried Whey, Natural Flavoring,
Brewers Dried Yeast, Yeast Culture, Salt, Potassium Chloride,
DL-Methionine Hydroxyanalogue, L-lysine, Wheat Germ Meal, Choline
Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, D-activated Animal Sterol (source of
Vitamin D3), Taurine, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin Supplement, D-Calcium
Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine
Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin
B6), Inositol, Folic Acid, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper
Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganous
Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Magnesium Proteinate, Copper Proteinate.

---------------
Royal Canine -

Sterilized, tending to be overweight:

Chicken meal, plant protein isolate*, animal fat, corn, corn
gluten meal, animal proteins (hydrolysed), animal fiberss, L-Lysine,
beet pulp, minerals, fish oil, yeast, soja oil, dried egg, sodium
phosphate, fructo-oligosaccharides, Mannan-oligosaccharides, Taurin,
DL-Methoniene, L-Carnitine

Protein: 37%
Raw fat: 12%
Omega 6: 2,8%
Omega 3: 0,48%
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

No RC is not the same in the US as in Germany. Apparently RC in Germany is better? but don't quote me!:)
You may want to have a look at my friend's site...it may have something that's useful to you.
http://www2.serve.com/BatonRouge/nutr.htm
Marilyn

Do you mean one for overweight cats?
If so then RC has the wrong idea - an overweight cat needs more
protein, more fish oil, and LESS carbohydratre.

But both the RC versions you have are just as bad as in USA:
Plant protein isolate and gluten is NEVER okay for cats - it damages
kidneys, and to ensure chronic disease all you need is a lot of seed
oils and they did that as well.
Unfortunately it is well hidden. There are international feline and
canine nutrition symposiums held annually, at which world researchers
present papers, in full. The papers presented are then bound into
books by a cat food manufacturer (of junk food) called IAMS and
copyrighted, and a limited number of books is published. In addition
there are no index pages. All the research is just thrown into a cover.

It takes a really dedicated person to make sure to get these volumes
(starting 1998) and to look past the junkfood manufacturer name on
the cover - and to read the insides of the book.
The trick of copyrighting it, means it is NOT in the USA PuBMed on
line - which is the online version of the National Library of
Medicine - nor is it able to be found on the internet.
So basically the company binding the research together gets the kudos
for "supporting research" but actually what they are doing IMO is
hiding it. (The research does not favor their crummy product at all.)
There are a lot of basics in the first two volumes of 1998 that show
how wrong the circulating general opinions are about cats- so those
are the best ones to get to start with - then there are new ones
annually.

[I promote what these research papers actually say on my Catwell
list, as an indirect way to get the info.]
I also know who works for Iams or Hills etc, so as to know where to
use a pinch (bucket?) of salt when it comes to c onclusions.
It is VERY IMPORTANT TO READ THE RESEARCH - NOT THE POTENTIALLY
BIASED CONCLUSIONS.

The research is all good. the conclusions by the editor can be skipped.
Lousy system for finding research easily - but I am convinced that is
intentional.
None of this is usable food
Cats need animal proteins but not hydrolysed leftover junkl
It needs to read "chicken MEAL" or some such.
VERY itrritant to the gut.
Cats need rice bran or beet fiber
wrecks the immune system
Causes very painful intestinal gas and wrong bacteria, and prevents
proper development of short chain fatty acids needed in carnovore gut
NOT a safe preservative - it is Toxic to cats; also kills essential
gut bacteria.

Good foods are preserved only with Vit E.

Without the moisture percentage, one can not calculate the carbohydrate.
IF the moisture is 10% (the most usual) then carb percent here is 46%.
But that is misleading - it is really worse than that - as the
protein mainly comes from plants and is damaging.

ProPac by comparison has none of the above disadvantages and is 34%
Carb.
GROUND corn is usable by cats fro energy - not "corn" as in RC.
Also, there is no "gluten" or other plant protein source in Propac.
All good things for cats.
This will damage kidneys and make then fat
this will harm the liver and be inflamamtory at cell level
makes them fat
plant protein to damage kidneys again
junk protein
read hooves and other leftover junk at the slaughter house used as
"filler".
wrecks immune system

Assuming 10% moisture, the Carb level (needs to be LOW for weight
loss) is 41%.
And there is stuff to damage liver, kidneys, gut health (which
supports organ and immune health) and immuine system included

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

ProPac by comparison has none of the above disadvantages and is 34% Carb.
Am I to understand that ProPac dry cat food is being recommended? Cats are obligate carnivores and need meat. % of Carbs this high leads to diabetes, kidney failure (from never being able to drink enuf water to "counter balance" all the dry food!), cystitis, bladder/kidney stones, IBD, Hepatic Lipidosis (Fatty Liver disease) and Dental problems. Generally, it would "just" lower the immune system and make the kitty susceptible to *any* dis-ease!
Marilyn

Yes - the kitten food not the cat food - As the best available
commercial food currently on the market.
I suggest it be free fed, 24/7, and supplemented as foll:
Add extra animal protein meals like low sodium canned salmon and
sardines, bone-in with added taurine and Vit E, fresh meat, fish or egg,
plus some (1 teasp a day)_cooked pumpkin (for carotene, as cats need
12 times as much as dogs), rice bran and bifidus for gut and immune
system health. Extra fish oil.
ProPac has chicken, fish and egg. It needs to be free fed.
I recommend adding more at occasional times.
34% is lower than other commercial foods, and improved by the
additions suggested.
For example the one Louise had found has 41 or 46% carbs.
Actually my clients with diabetic cats change to it and go off
insulin:-)
Oh this is an OLD fallacy:-)
Free-fed dry food has no water drinking issues - that was an
assumption - disproved by research. It is what is IN the food that
conts - not itrs dryness or wetness.
No cats on this food get kidney failure - my clients with kidney
damaged cats change to it to get better:-)
Proof of pudding matches what the research says in other words.
Also reversed by this food fed as above - as is the rest of your list:-)
IBD is caused by feeding cats fruit and veg:-) Dental problems come
from canned food, and poor quality protein food.
There is no fruit or veg in Propac kitten. That is an important
requirement in cat food.

Now if the company would increase the protein another 10 percent or
so, and add the things I listed - I'd love it - but so far, this is
the best available commercially.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

Thank you. That is very helpful.

I haven't the slightest idea how to start to get the research papers,
which I still would like to do.

Knowing your opinion of having to read the research for oneselft to
preclude biased opinions I am sure that you do not mind my thinking
that you also are biased your own way. No-one is excempt from that -
yours truly very much included:-)

Perhaps they have the IAMS books in one of the veterinary schools
library. If so I am motivated enough to take a ride there and make
Xerox copies.

For myself and for my vet-niece, who is just as motivated to do what
she considers to be the best for cats as we are and also has been
brought up with lots of cats being very much part of the family:-)

However - as long as I have not had a chance to make up my own mind as
to the dangers you name nor have heard/read different opinions from
people I trust, I shall switch to Propac for kittens. There seems no
reason from the health side not to do so, so I'll do it to be on the
safe side.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Hi Irene,
No way with **this** cat of mine. **I never had this problem before.

Not with other cats - not while he was still one of three.

I have tried all of this food and more. For him to eat it would mean
starving him (without the 24/7 kibbles around) for a long time, again
and again - which you say one should never do!

So i'll be happy if he will eat the Propac and continue to eat small
amounts of beef for supplement;-(

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

> Am I to understand that ProPac dry cat food is being recommended?

Yes - the kitten food not the cat food - As the best available
commercial food currently on the market.
I suggest it be free fed, 24/7, and supplemented as foll:
Add extra animal protein meals like low sodium canned salmon and
sardines, bone-in with added taurine and Vit E, fresh meat, fish or egg,
plus some (1 teasp a day)_cooked pumpkin (for carotene, as cats need
12 times as much as dogs), rice bran and bifidus for gut and immune
system health. Extra fish oil.

Have you looked at Go Natural (esp their grain free)? Orijen?
Why are you suggesting salmon and sardines? on a daily basis? is everything on a daily basis?
Why extra taurine when they are getting commercial food?
Why all the other supplements?
I do agree that there are MANY commercial foods with far more carbs, but do you seriously recommend only one dry food? I am also unsure what difference you see in the cat and kitten formulations of ProPac?

Oh this is an OLD fallacy:-)
Free-fed dry food has no water drinking issues - that was an
assumption - disproved by research. It is what is IN the food that
conts - not itrs dryness or wetness.
No cats on this food get kidney failure - my clients with kidney
damaged cats change to it to get better:-)
Proof of pudding matches what the research says in other words.
Of course it's what's in the (dry) food that is a concern!:) The amount of "garbage" in it is the problem! When I see ingredients like ground corn...many cats are allergic to corn...I cringe.
And... cats on dry food do need more water simply because the dry food needs moisture to assimilate. If they don't drink lots of water, where are they going to get this moisture from? besides their own body, which will lead to kidney malfunction.
IBD is caused by feeding cats fruit and veg:-) Dental problems come
from canned food, and poor quality protein food.
There is no fruit or veg in Propac kitten. That is an important
requirement in cat food.

Again my experience differs...I have seen IBD from too much of the "bad" fibre...the ground corn I was speaking of is often the culprit.
Dental problems...from the carbs, which are in a lot of canned food as well. The canned food also has problems of it's own, in it's ingredients and additives.
Now if the company would increase the protein another 10 percent or
so, and add the things I listed - I'd love it - but so far, this is
the best available commercially.
I am not saying that Pro Pac may not be a decent food...just for the record!:) but again, do you seriously only recommend only one dry food...and add those supplements?
Marilyn

Why is that?
It's not like I make money selling food or products or that I have
anything at all to gain by being biased in one or other way. Just the
opposite. It is my life goal to help cats live longer healthier lives
and I have studied very long and hard to know how to assess research
to extract fact - not supposition - from it - so I have no bias. Bias
by definition implies I have something to gain by reading it one way
or the other:-)
But I do not:-)

The only area where I may interpret differently, is that where I have
additional education and understanding.
For example I have extensive study in Zoology, cell physiology and
immunopharmacology - plus what I know from other research or work -
and that DOES enable me to add value to my reading, rather than
taking it alone.
Added value is separate from bias - but I do see it as being positive
rather than negative for feline health:-)
Sounds good to me.
May I suggest that as you read each one, you make an index.
It's a pain in the butt to know you read something somewhere and then
to not be able to find it readily again to quote it etc - short of
reading half a dozen volumes cover to cover!

May I suggest you make a SLOW change. Dogs generally take 2 weeks to
adapt to a new food, cats a month.
So - Substitute a little ProPac kitten for the current food, maybe a
spoon of it initially,
then gradually a little more till it is all the new one.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I wish it was not true but this is the best I can do currently.
Unfortunately the "next best" is so much worse that I can not condone
its use where ProPac kitten is available.

If it helps, the next best options are these:
Walmart's Maxximum kitten
Nutro Max's Kitten food (Not the "Nutro Natural Choice)
Annamaet's cat/kitten food

But they are quite a lot less suited to cats on several scores.

Everything else on the market has feline toxins or unacceptable
protein sources or is loaded with fruit/veg etc.
Mainly:
The "cat" version has more carbs than protein (percentage) which
makes the food imbalanced towards inflammatory at cellular level.
Also, kitten formula has overall, more protein and a level of
Magnesium for nerve nutrition that is adequate (while it is deficient
in "cat".)
Cats are especially prone to stress-related diseases, and so
magnesium is a highly relevant nutrient.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."