The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

In this forum, we have placed all the messages related to migrating the YahooGroup to this Forum so you can see what happened. These messages have been moved here from the YahooGroups Archive. The forum has been locked, no new posts allowed.
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Carol Boyce
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:00 pm

The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Carol Boyce »

Peter and others on this thread.
I don't propose to fully understand how we got into this situation - perhaps because Minutus is a loose group of homeopaths / supporters who have no other connection than this,
that it came at a time when homeopaths were being heavily attacked in the media and everyone was viewed with suspicion and our moderator was not available / unreachable for a while?

What I do know is that at this time in our history it's important that we support each other and recognise that sometimes we need help. I don't think I need to explain to anyone that I am

more mindful than most in the CAM world about security issues, but there is a point when, after doing the research we have to trust.

I have noticed a sudden silence from the discussion that was taking place about this relocation between a small group of regular posters - is that discussion now being held elsewhere?
Are they on the rife group?
Peter I am grateful for your efforts on behalf of Minutus and believe it crucial to save our archive - many important discussions and exchanges of information have been recorded there.
Let's not get into personal back and forth on this. Given Peter's efforts and the lack of support he has received from the M group it's not surprising that he is at the end of his tether.
And I don't know Peter at all, only from what I have seen via this thread and his attempts to help us save what we have.

If we want an archive attached to our group let's make it happen without any further interpersonal accusations / attacks?
If we don't as a group then let's be clear about it and cut Peter free to get on with his life?

I have made my donation - $20 - finances are tough for me right now otherwise I might be tempted to just make up the difference to £300 and get it done.
Peter - FYI - I followed the links to Terms and Conditions and from there to Privacy (yes I am one of those nerds) and it was difficult to get back from there to my original order.

If I was less determined I might have given up at that point so that might also be a barrier to donations?

Re the archives I use only Mac so I am hoping I can access a downloadable version if this group does not agree to the relocation you are offering.

Anyone else out there?

Carol B


Tanya Marquette
Posts: 5602
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 11:00 pm

Re: The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Tanya Marquette »

Carol

I followed/participated actively in this discussion until it felt there was nothing more to say. I had been pushing people to take this

desconstruction of Yahoo seriously but for the most part they did not. ARH is even worse as just this week some of those people

are 'noticing' the loss of the group archives!!!!!
I gave up the security/anti-vaccine argument for Io when time was so short that we needed to do something. I resented having to
pay $200 to Yahoo as it seemed it was just another of their money grubbing gimmicks. However, even that became acceptable when

we were down to the wire. People still did not respond. Peter kept pushing his private service which he now seems to want even
more money than what he originally asked for. l do not like this request/demand for more money. When people do this in my business,

I do not deal with them any longer as changing your quote mid-stream is unethical and unacceptable to me. I am sure Peter will come

back on me for saying this but the fact that people could not communicate clearly, Soroush was not actively involved in this at some point

and people could not reach him and the changing costs for the transfer led me to quite the conversation. I absolutely disagree with Peter's

attitude that people can sign up again. He ignores all factors of organizing and saw no benefit in saving the membership list which took

years to develop. He still sends posts via his Rife group even knowing so few people signed up to that. Yahoo will send emails still and
that address should still be used to reach as many of us as possible. I cannot support his kind of policy which is, de facto, exclusionary.
Then a few personal issues in my life claimed a lot of my time/energy. Thus, I backed out of the discussion and even stopped reading

it as it was going nowheres. I am glad you can contribute to costs but I am at a dead bottom of my finances now and have no money
to contribute to anything. I hope there are more here like you with some funds to contribute. The lack of response on this suggests to

me that most people do not like or maybe do not trust this process. Other groups took Yahoo seriously and made the change to Io
seamlessly paying them their $200.00 which many of us resented but now seems cheap in hind sight. I do hope we get it together
without contention. I know much of Roz's attitude is based on bad PayPal experience which is frustrating/angering. From what he posted,
he is not angry with Minutus.
t


Carol Boyce
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:00 pm

Re: The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Carol Boyce »

Tanya,
I hear you - and am smilng with the suggestion that I am in a financial position to donate - I put it on a credit card because I am not in a position to donate!
The change in amount I assumed was because we missed the window when it was a simpler exercise - now because we missed that deadline it is more complicated.

£300 is not insignificant. The group has more than a thousand members - most of whom never post. There are a regular group of perhaps 20 that post regularly - that's $15 a head.
So I don't really see the issue as literally money but rather the initial confusion and resistance to having an "outsider" involved, even though insiders were not taking action quickly enough - and

also as often happens on the internet the resistance to paying for something, even a niminal amount - that was previously free.
As for ARH - I had sent a personal message to them explaining they were already too late to the game to make the transfer but I never heard back from Steve S if he ever got my email.
The homeopathic community is notoriously averse to tech of any kind - and some of our community wear that as a badge of honour which always strikes me as ironic given that so much of life

needs to be carried out via the internet especially the possibility of communicating with people thousands of miles away - like this!! :)

Well it will be what it is - and those of us that want access to the archive will hopefully be able to get it. As for the membership I understood Peter has saved access to the list.
Is there a group prev of Minutus that is now communicating elsewhere? On the rife forum?
Stay well,
Carol B
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Tanya Marquette
Posts: 5602
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 11:00 pm

Re: The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Tanya Marquette »

Hi Carol

Glad to make you smile (LOL)

My finances right now are really rock bottom and I do not use credit cards as there is no income, so I am not in a position to
judge anyone else's. Am glad you can handle some of the need.
I agree that the internet had made us feel all should be free but, in reality, the internet was designed to feed the military needs as well

as to become the major market place that it is in reality. Just look at how Amazon has taken over so many businesses causing many local

ones to fold. Bookstores are one arena in particular and I have seen that in my community beginning at least 20 yrs ago. So people do

pay for things online. However, these social groups were to be free and I fear we are being forced into changing our expectations. I feel

people should resist and not allow this to happen to us.
As for ARH, I, too, wrote to them a few times and only in the past few days someone wrote with surprise? that the Yahoo group no longer

has our files. Very frustrating indeed. I don't know if those in UK are dismissing the American experience as if it has nothing to do with them

but I am suspecting this to be true. We are seeing this with a really low level response to the efforts to destroy the NHS and other social

safety net programs which has maintained the public. I wonder how far down the rabbit hole people have to fall before they wake up and

take the current reactionary, neo-liberal tendencies seriously. Wasn't Russian and later on Greece enough of a lesson for the public!

t
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Carol Boyce
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:00 pm

Re: The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Carol Boyce »

Hi Tanya,
Agree about internet and etc for sure - by what was free now is not - I was not suggesting that we need to pay for an online forum going forward but to pay for someone's time helping do the tech
necessary to save the archives and set up a new group / forum etc.

As someone who has spent a lifetime giving away skills and time for free so that I now am beyond retirement age and with limited finances - I don't have such a problem with someone doing what I should

have done and offered their skills for a small fee!
When the internet itself offers 'free email accounts' and so on - as we know there is nothing free on the internet - we pay not in hard cash but in information that we surrender to the marketers.
Yes re ARH a case in point......

If by the UK dismissing the US situation re the FDA - I am not sure - in all honesty much of the UK population are shell shocked I think - the election created a situation that means we can look forward to a leader

with a strong mandate who can now do anything he likes no matter how unpopular. Not to mention the need for the UK to capitulate to DT once we are out of the EU later this month in terms of trade and potentially sell

the NHS to the US insurance companies.....

Plus it doesn't help that we have been felled by an horrendous acute this winter that is proving very difficult to manage with the usual remedies.. So far it seems to respond best to potentised FluMist v-acc which they have been

giving in the schools..... :(
Carol B


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Peter Walker
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Re: The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Peter Walker »

Hi Tanya,

Let me correct a few factual errors in your message:
The $220 transfer fee would have been to groups.io, not Yahoo. As I had already paid that fee for my own YahooGroups, I discovered it was possible to setup subgroups to mine making the transfer cost much lower – that would have cost just $50 and would have completely transferred your group with archives and members to a subgroup of groups.io. All that was needed was to act within a very tight time period. I tried hard to impress this was urgent and that $50 really is a bargain price, but you all continued to argue about what to do and that opportunity disappeared along with your archives. It was a matter of just two days too late.
Plan B was then the only option and unfortunately more expensive. The guy who has written the software for the transfer to groups.io set his prices based on the number of messages and I have no control of what he charges. The $309 charge all goes to this provider, I do not earn a thing on that price, yet have most of the work. You seem to imply I am somehow profiteering off your dilemma, it is far from it. Your group is nothing but a big burden for me with no chance of me earning a penny. Yet, instead of people being glad I am here to get your group out of this dilemma, I am being portrayed badly and am constantly having to defend my actions to messages like yours.
I did not change the quote, because I wanted to earn more money, as you are implying. It was your delaying that made the cheaper option no longer available as Yahoo had then removed their archives and that cheaper option was technically impossible. I would love to be able to move your group for $50, but the infrastructure to do that is no longer there. Other groups I contacted at the same time were glad to accept my assistance and cooperated completely and they are now happily residing as subgroups with their members and archives. If your group had reacted like they did, your group would be there with your archives as well. Here are those other groups I moved that way:
https://rifegroup.groups.io/g/Rife Is my Rife group (formally Rife YahooGroup)
https://rifegroup.groups.io/g/huldaclarkenthusiasts (like yours, a group I had not been a member of before. They asked me for help in time, cooperated and are happily continuing on groups.io)

https://rifegroup.groups.io/g/SymphonicHealth/ (a group that is a splitter group from the Rife community and did not know what to do. I helped them and they are very happy with their archives and members intact)
https://rifegroup.groups.io/g/Minutus (Finally there is your group. Argued and complained until it was too late. You missed the boat through inaction and I setup the group om groups.io so that you would at least have somewhere to go).
You then go on to complain about me inviting members instead of directly adding (means members are added to the group without them having to do anything) them. As I pointed out at the time, this has nothing to do with “attitude” as this is a technical limitation of groups.io subgroups where direct-add is simply not possible. The alternative would have been for your group to pay $220 to groups.io for your own group – then a direct add would have been possible. I too would have preferred to directly add all your members, but you had not even made $50 available, let alone $220 for this. It took a lot of work to even get the members list as both your moderators were unable to make it available to me. I then found a misconfiguration and was finally able to access and download the complete member list that was used to invite the members. I am not trying to exclude anyone and also post to the YahooGroup.
As to web communities being free – they never are, it is just how you pay that differs. The seemingly free communities sell your details to advertisers and governments as well as imposing advertising on you. So while you are not paying money directly to the group, your privacy is being sold instead. This is especially true of Facebook and YahooGroups was not so bad, but were not generating enough revenue so they closed down most of it. Groups.io is a Fremium service. They have a free level with very limited features which you could class as a demo. Their premium service costs §220 with the advantage that this pays for the service and they do not impose advertising on you. I do not know if they sell your data, as an American company they are obliged to give the government access to it.
So now we have discussed and corrected any misunderstandings, let me once again explain the plan for the future Minutus home as groups.io is just a temporary home.
I am currently setting up a new service for lost YahooGroups where the archives are converted to messages on a phpBB forum. That dedicated forum runs on my webserver based in Germany where freedom of speech still exists (unless you want to deny the holocaust that is, which is not an issue for this group or any I would want to host).
Importing (directly adding) the members is possible, so nobody gets left behind. There is no charge for importing the members of your group to the new forum. Due to European privacy laws, members will have to click on a link to approve those laws, as is the case with most websites these days.
It is possible to import your archives, but again this has to be done by the programmer in Scotland who wants $200 per group plus $1 per thousand messages = $309 for your group. I do not keep a penny of this fee, but I am negotiating with him to get a discount based on the number of groups to be converted. That may be possible if I can get at least 10 groups to import. That should be possible as there are no other services left for lost groups to move to. To pay these costs, we still need another $150 from your group.
I am still setting up the main website and preparing the service for use. The website is at https://forums.group and your new home is at https://minutus.forums.group where you will currently find an empty unconfigured forum. It needs to be that way until the messages have been imported.

There are no restrictions on discussing the V-word, etc. and anyone who has used a phpBB forum before will know they are powerful and reliable systems. I will be the admin to handle technical issues, but I will leave moderation to your team. The only reason we cannot import your archives and get you started there right now, is that the money to pay the Scottish guy has not been donated yet. If the money does not come in by the end of Saturday, I will abort importing your archives and just setup and add your whole group to an empty forum – it is then no longer possible to import your archives. Your decision, not mine. Once everybody (all members from your YahooGroup) has been
There are costs involved with running a forum and those costs have yet to be finalised. However, it will be in the range of 50 – 100 Euros (yes, as a European system, we are charging in Euros) per annum, but as your group appears to be so poor, I can simply put advertising on the forum, instead. By the way, I do not and will never sell your personal details onto any third parties.
As you can see, this service is currently under construction and the aim is to go public about this in mid-January and have the first forums online by the beginning of February.
So, I hope that has clarified the situation. Now I have to continue working on the infrastructure of the new system. Lots of work still to do. I would be happy if you can get the funds organized by Saturday so that I can restore your archives, otherwise at least you will have a new home with no forbidden topics and all members in one place.

Regards

Peter Walker
The Rife Forum
www.rife.de
www.rifewiki.org
www.rifeshop.com
www.rifeforum.com
groups.rifeforum.com
groups.io/g/rifeforum
rifegroup.groups.io/g/Rife
gadgetheaven.net


Carol Boyce
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:00 pm

Re: The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Carol Boyce »

Tanya,
I hear you - and am smilng with the suggestion that I am in a financial position to donate - I put it on a credit card because I am not in a position to donate!
The change in amount I assumed was because we missed the window when it was a simpler exercise - now because we missed that deadline it is more complicated.

£300 is not insignificant. The group has more than a thousand members - most of whom never post. There are a regular group of perhaps 20 that post regularly - that's $15 a head.
So I don't really see the issue as literally money but rather the initial confusion and resistance to having an "outsider" involved, even though insiders were not taking action quickly enough - and

also as often happens on the internet the resistance to paying for something, even a niminal amount - that was previously free.
As for ARH - I had sent a personal message to them explaining they were already too late to the game to make the transfer but I never heard back from Steve S if he ever got my email.
The homeopathic community is notoriously averse to tech of any kind - and some of our community wear that as a badge of honour which always strikes me as ironic given that so much of life

needs to be carried out via the internet especially the possibility of communicating with people thousands of miles away - like this!! :)

Well it will be what it is - and those of us that want access to the archive will hopefully be able to get it. As for the membership I understood Peter has saved access to the list.
Is there a group prev of Minutus that is now communicating elsewhere? On the rife forum?
Stay well,
Carol B


Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
Posts: 2279
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm

Re: The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD »

Why should I be angry at Minutus?

I had and still have problems with Paypal, which is ripping off their clients, and I do not like being pushed around, it always ends badly and not for me.

Peter just suggested in a private email that I cover personally all the remaining costs and be seen "as the saviour of the group".... how is that for chutzpah? Of course I did not answer.

Joe.
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

www.naturamedica.co.nz


Ellen Madono
Posts: 2012
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:00 pm

Re: The Future on Minutus - Alternatives to groups.io ACTION NEEDED THIS WEEK

Post by Ellen Madono »

Awe. We all have other things to do besides poke at each other. I will pay for a really funny jab. But not a wimpy poke.

Today I want to laugh because what is happening in Ardavan's country is just too sad. Too terrible. And too ignorant on the American side. I don't think laughter is or will be possible for a long time.

Ellen


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