Minutus

Friends,
People need to know that there are some people on this list who truly hate homeopathy and who can and will use ANYTHING that each of us say to make homeopathy look bad. This has been verified in the recent series of comments to the GUARDIAN but was predictable even before then.

These people are silent but deadly here, but they talk about what we say on other e-lists.

Comments on this list are normally honest dialogue of us trying to improve the quality of our knowledge and/or practice of homeopathy. However, I encourage people to be careful on what you say here.
For those people who have read the comments in the recent GUARDIAN article, you have seen the seething venom that some of these people have towards homeopathy. It is amazing how many British citizens have this hatred and are very vocal about it. Despite homeopathy's much larger popularity in France and Germany, my sense is that the antagonists to homeopathy are going after homeopathy in the UK because it is not as strong there. And sadly, most homeopaths seem like the Jews before the Holocaust; they are silent and somehow think that the antagonists will go away (they won't).

If people in England do not raise their voice, their voice will be silenced for them.

--Dana Ullman

Dear Dana

They are struggling with my challenge to take part of a reproving.

I would like to produce a protocol that covers all aspects - any assistance you can give would be gratefully received.

Regards

Soroush

dana,
you are so right. there is a disbelief in people who
hold high entitlements in a society. there is a sense
of righteousness and total disbelief that THEY would be
attacked or interferred with. then, in true disconnect,
their is the fear of being outspoken and calling attention
to oneself, this is particularly true in this country
with homeopaths practicing without state sanctions. so
the desire to stay under the radar of attention is strong.
and then again, we have a culture of such complacency and
individualism that most people wont act regardless of how
much their self-interest is really being affected.
your letter to the guardian was a good one, but it still
produced venom. on this i would suggest that we use their
irrationality and real motives to counter their nonsense.
and above all, we must never forget that many of these people
are plants from the pharmaceutical industry and the medical
establishment that worries about 2 things: one, is the loss
of income, and two is the loss of control. i think that much
of our argument has to attack their motives and in any way
possible to expose them.
tanya

Dana, your wrote ;
"...Despite homeopathy's much larger popularity in France and Germany, my sense is that the antagonists to homeopathy are going after homeopathy in the UK because it is not as strong there. ....."
My humble voice here.
I tend to think homeopathy was strong in UK.
I wonder if it is because of the integration of homeopathy in the health care system that opponents are afraid of their competitors and want all the state money to allopathie (pharmaceutical war/lobbying ??)
My other question is do they have lay homeopaths ?
I think In France, homeopath are MDs...to be reimbursed by the health care system homeopathic it has to be given by "a family MD practitioner" (generalist in French).
(THis is what my private insurance told me, but I am not in the public health care system ; however I think it's pretty much the same).
I still believe we should put the insurance on our side to counter the big pharma
If the insurance carrier is convinced by homeopathy will not they fight for it ?
Money v. Money ?
Verondique
"....

in the usa, as in the uk, homeopathy and other holistic
protocols would probably save significant amounts of money.
however, the insurance companies, for the most part, refuse
to look at this. there are a couple of places like seattle,
washington where you can get holistically based health care
insurance in some circumstances so there is a track record
of comparative costs to look at. but this doesnt seem to
matter. so, once again, one has to question the real motives
and financial connections between the insurance industry and
the other 2 legs of the medcial industry: big pharma and the
ama.
i think i have given up on the insurance industry. my vision
involves doing away with private insurance companies as far as
health care goes. their bottom line thinking is antagonistic
to meaningful health care.
tanya

Hi Tanya, the insurance issue is different in the UK and in other areas of Europe,
compared with the USA. In the UK, most insurance companies pay for homeopathy, with
exception of BUPA and PPP which only pay to medical homeopaths; this applies to animals
as well - my dog has been having Hom. treatment all paid by the insurance company;
other therapies are paid for too, eg. chiropractic etc. In France, the hom. fees are paid in
full as well. So, don't give up, use our experiences over this side of the pond to persuade
US companies to look into the benefits of paying for Hom. treatments. Grace

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Tanya Marquette" wrote:

Grace,
Everyone knows that the USA has the most expensive
medical system in the world. It is also one of the
worst amongst industrialized nations on many indices.
And the insurance industry acts like a gate keeper on
services while raking in more and more money, while
supporting the sale of drugs and surgery. I truly
believe that unless this country sees a revolution of
core values, there is no hope. While European countries
have their problems, there seems to still be some
core humanistic values that operate, but even these
are changing as the WTO, Big Pharma and Codex claim
title to the right to control all life, spending as little
as possible on people and sucking everything out of us.
The battle around homeopathy ongoing in the UK is totally
tied to this effort.
It would be nice to think that there is hope in this country,
but my cynicism is so deep: I just dont trust the insurance
industry here. I would like to know more about the European
models, but dont know that this is the forum for that
discussion.
tanya

Tanya Marquette wrote:

There is but we have to fight for it. For example here in WA state - the
1995 law disallows prejudice against any form of health care by any
insurance company. That is - they may not exclude a category of health
practitioner. Here's detail;

QUOTE
(from a law suit forcing this law to be followed, this being said in the
judgement section by the WA supreme court after appeal)

In 1995, the Washington legislature effected sweeping changes to the
state's regulation of health insurance, and the Alternative Provider
Statute (the "Act") is one part of that reform. The Act itself is
relatively short:

Every health plan delivered, issued for delivery, or renewed by a
health carrier on and after January 1, 1996, shall:

(1) Permit every category of health care provider to provide health
services or care for conditions included in the basic health plan
services to the extent that:

(a) The provision of such health services or care is within the
health care providers' permitted scope of practice; and (b) The
providers agree to abide by standards related to:

(i) Provision, utilization review, and cost containment of health
services;

(ii) Management and administrative procedures; and (iii) Provision
of cost-effective and clinically efficacious health services.

RCW 48.43.045(1).

The terms used in the Act are mostly defined in RCW 48.43.005
("Definitions"). In particular, a "health carrier" or "carrier" means a
disability insurer, a health care service contractor, or a health
maintenance organization. RCW 48.43.005(8). And a "health plan" or
"health benefit plan" means "any policy, contract, or agreement offered
by a health carrier to provide, arrange, reimburse, or pay for health
care service," subject to a few exceptions. RCW 48.43.005(9). "Provider"
is undefined in the statute, but refers to a doctor, dentist,
acupuncturist, or other health care provider.

Thus, the Act forces every carrier (HMOs, disability insurers) to
allow every insured to choose from an expanded list of providers
(acupuncturists, massage therapists) for medical conditions covered by
the insured's policy. The Act does not force any carrier to contract
with any particular provider (e.g., John Smith, M.D.) but merely forbids
a carrier from excluding an entire category of licensed providers (e.g.,
all chiropractors or all naturopaths) from its policy.
END QUOTE

My comment:
So the law is there in WA - but getting it followed properly is
difficult and so far seems to require expensive legal action. For
example the law suit where I got the above, defended by Cris Gregoire -
she was then WA's State Attorney General, and is currently governor of
WA State. In the law suit below, insurance carriers tried to claim their
policies had prior effect and were not required to comply. District
court agreed but it was overturned in supreme court, which upheld the law:
http://lw.bna.com/lw/19980707/9735536.htm

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Yes Irene, I had noted Washington's 'liberalism' in
their coverages, but it is still not that open. I did
a phone case about 5-6 yrs ago from Seattle. At a
certain point I felt this woman would profit from a
local practitioner. She did not have a choice of
homeopathic practitioner on her health plan, so went to
Bastyr's clinic where she had to pay out of pocket.
Unfortunately, Bastyr focuses more on other holistic
forms of healing and seems minimal with homeopathy.
And we do have a very few states that have passed
health freedom access laws. I live in New York
and from my perspective, the good old boys rule the
roost in most of the country and change will not occur
unless we see major changes in the political processes
of this country. Clean Elections would be a big step,
but I see that as a long term effort/battle. Politicians
don't bite the hands that feed them and I dont see them
easily voting those hands out of the political game. But
unless that happens, bringing in some core changes in
guiding philosophical values, I feel it will be impossible
to see any significant changes to health care systems in
this country. For that matter, it is a battle to keep this
country's quest for power and greed from contaminating the
rest of the world. Codex is about strengthening the status
quo and destroying all competing practices, and that effort was
pushed through the EU despite world wide opposition from the
people.
tanya

Tanya Marquette wrote:

The law is open - the implementation is not there yet.

I did

Bad health plan then, but a sick person is usually not in a position to
change at that point or to challenge the plan provisions for essentially
excluding one form of health care by failing to list a practitioner for
it, or alternatively to accept a practitioner not on "their list" to
fulfill requirements of law not to exclude that entire category of
health care.

I do agree that implementation of the law is still difficult. It takes a
lot of pro-active work to get somewhere with it. One has to challenge
the insurance companies. However with Gov Gregoire's precedent-setting
case, one should be able to get progress just threatening a law suit if
they do not allow a homeopath in WA state. Both client and homeopath
however, need to KNOW about the law and what it states. The insurance
company is not going to "remember" it!

Where I am seeing a bigger problem is in wanting to use homeopathy under
social security (disability law or for retired people), as that is
federal, and there is no federal law about it - and so I do not know if
WA's law has any effect for retired or disabled people in WA - under the
social security system.
You'd need more than an ocean of Tide for that:-)

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."