Exploring the differences in Mental symptoms

[Mary-anne Black]

Hello everyone,
I have to thank Tracy P. for reminding me again about K. Allen's 'Tutorial
and workbook for Homoeopathic Repertory'.
As a result, I looked through it again and found the exersizes on the
Mental/ Behaviour Symptoms, which I wanted to explore.
The focus is to be able to differentiate between rubrics that on the surface
appear very similar, but really have quite a different meaning or feeling
attached to them.
I started to do the first pair of rubrics and found that it really did
require a lot of thought, and that there many more subtle nuances attached
to each word, that once explored, really widened my perspective of them.
So then I thought I would like to share this exersize with others, in the
hopes that I/we can widen our perspective even further.
To that end, I am posting K. Allen's instructions and the first pair of
rubrics:

JEALOUSY and ENVY

Karen Allen writes:
"To complete the exersize, go through these steps.
1/ Define each of the rubrics being compared; Use your dictionary to look up
all mental references , and any physical words about which you are unsure.
Write these definitions down.
2/Think of a situation where the two rubrics could both look valid for the
symptom (i.e. when would they be the same---where is the overlap between
definitions?) Ask yourself, "Can conditon X look like condition Y"?
3/ Finally, think of a situation for each rubric where one would apply and
the other would not (i.e. when would they be different---where is the
separation between the definitions?). Again, ask yourself if condition X can
look completely different than condition Y. "

Karen Allen writes: "when you are doing these exersizes don't be in a hurry.
Take time to think deeply about the similarites and differences between
rubrics."

I'll post my thoughts in another e-mail, to give everyone a chance to
explore this exersize without any other influence. So if you're still
thinking, don't read the next e-mail from me with the same subject title.

Deep thinking everyone,

Mary-anne B.

[Donna Earnest]

Mary-anne,
thanks so much for posting this. I am looking forward to this exercise
and whatever else follows this post.
Donna E

[Mary-anne Black]

Hello again everyone,
I thought I¹d preface my answer with a quote from K. Allen regarding the
Œanswer¹ for these rubric differentiation's. She writes:

³After you finish, you can review the answers given in the solution guide.
Toss out any rigidity you may have about right and wrong answers. The
results given in the solution guide are starting points. Your answer may be
different and also perfectly valid. Again, the point here is to get you to
use and think about the repertory , not just get the right answers....²

Here are the dictionary definitions that I found:

JEALOUSY:
Suspiciously watchful; distrustful of faithfulness; envious (hmmm...even
the dictionary thinks they might be used interchangeably).

ENVY:
Bitter or longing consideration of another¹s better fortune or success or
qualities.

My perspective:

JEALOUSY:
Jealousy seems more active (extroverted) or likely to cause an action
compared to ŒEnvious¹. This is suggested to me by the Œsuspiciously
watchful¹ phrase. It has a certain Œwaiting readiness¹ a Œtense
cautiousness¹. It also seems to imply that a negative outcome is expected:
i.e. that in the jealous person¹s mind, the other person has already been
unfaithful and that it is just a matter of waiting for confirmation.
Certainly it is a defensive posture or why would one be watchful? ŒDistrust
of faithfulness implies to me that there is a certain expectation of
loyalty, whatever that may mean to the jealous person. There is an
attachment to a particular outcome. A possessiveness. A feeling that that
person holds something in their possession that they fear losing. Which must
mean that they never truly felt they possessed it in the first place. (It
reminds me of the character ŒGollum¹ in the Tolkien series ³Lord of the
Rings who loses his Œprecious¹ ring to ³Bilbo², the hobbit...Ok so I'm on a
Lord of the Ring kick at present....).
There is more an intenseness of attachment associated with the word
³jealousy². To my mind there has to be a sense of something lacking within
the jealous person, or else they would not feel that they needed the object
of their desire. There would be no fear of losing it.

ENVY:
Seems more passive and introverted compared to Œjealousy¹. Also more of a
Œdissatisfaction¹ with one¹s own fortune. Seems to imply that ones fortune
is not good. A negative perspective. Must be feelings of lack if the person
is longing for something that someone else has.

Similarities:
As I see it, the feelings of lack would be true to both words. Just the
fact that they are both Œwanting¹ something/someone implies that they are
experiencing the lack.

Differences:
I think that the word jealous may include the word/feeling of envy, but that
it goes further than envy; It is stronger and more intense. It has a
possessive feeling attached to it that the word envious doesn't have.

So as an example of a situation where it might appear that they would both
apply, would perhaps be in the case where someone they knew got a job
promotion and they were envious of the other¹s good fortune. However, a
situation of jealousy might arise if the envious person felt that they
themselves deserved the position and were perhaps passed over for the job.
In this case they already possessed or were attached to that job promotion
in their mind, and being passed over might represent a threat to what they
thought they needed or lacked. And now it is being taken away. Jealousy
therefore seems a more highly defensive response than envy (and perhaps more
hidden pain?).
In fact, looking at the remedies in both rubrics, there appear to be more of
the extreme remedies listed in bold and italics in the rubric Œjealousy¹
versus Œenvy¹ (I didn¹t list the plain type) :
Jealousy: Apis., Calc-s., Cench., Cocain, HYOS., LACH., Med., Nux-m., NUX.
V., Puls., Staph, Stram.,
Envy: Am-c., ARS., Lach., Plat., PULS., Staph.,

Whew and Wow! Great exercise in critical thinking!
Looking forward to hearing any other perspectives on the differences between
the two words!

Good Journeys,
Mary-anne Black

[Donna Earnest]

Mary-anne,
Just to add to this.........I might tend to see it differently where you
feel that the person may have never possessed it in the first place. I have
seen jealously where there once was trust but that trust had been broken and
jealously set in. That bond had been broken. It wasn't until they
encountered total forgiveness and let it go that the jealously went away.
What a great way to get the thinking process going.
Donna E

My perspective:

Which must
mean that they never truly felt they possessed it in the first place. (It
reminds me of the character OGollum¹ in the Tolkien series ³Lord of the
Rings who loses his Oprecious¹ ring to ³Bilbo², the hobbit...Ok so I'm on a
Lord of the Ring kick at present....).
There is more an intenseness of attachment associated with the word
³jealousy². To my mind there has to be a sense of something lacking within
the jealous person, or else they would not feel that they needed the object
of their desire. There would be no fear of losing it.

ENVY:
Seems more passive and introverted compared to Ojealousy¹. Also more of a
Odissatisfaction¹ with one¹s own fortune. Seems to imply that ones fortune
is not good. A negative perspective. Must be feelings of lack if the person
is longing for something that someone else has.

Similarities:
As I see it, the feelings of lack would be true to both words. Just the
fact that they are both Owanting¹ something/someone implies that they are
experiencing the lack.

Differences:
I think that the word jealous may include the word/feeling of envy, but that
it goes further than envy; It is stronger and more intense. It has a
possessive feeling attached to it that the word envious doesn't have.

So as an example of a situation where it might appear that they would both
apply, would perhaps be in the case where someone they knew got a job
promotion and they were envious of the other¹s good fortune. However, a
situation of jealousy might arise if the envious person felt that they
themselves deserved the position and were perhaps passed over for the job.
In this case they already possessed or were attached to that job promotion
in their mind, and being passed over might represent a threat to what they
thought they needed or lacked. And now it is being taken away. Jealousy
therefore seems a more highly defensive response than envy (and perhaps more
hidden pain?).
In fact, looking at the remedies in both rubrics, there appear to be more of
the extreme remedies listed in bold and italics in the rubric Ojealousy¹
versus Oenvy¹ (I didn¹t list the plain type) :
Jealousy: Apis., Calc-s., Cench., Cocain, HYOS., LACH., Med., Nux-m., NUX.
V., Puls., Staph, Stram.,
Envy: Am-c., ARS., Lach., Plat., PULS., Staph.,

Whew and Wow! Great exercise in critical thinking!
Looking forward to hearing any other perspectives on the differences between
the two words!

Good Journeys,
Mary-anne Black
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[Rosemary Hyde]

Briefly, a personal impression...

I've always assumed that envy was sort of general -- you envy something that
someone else has that you would like to have, but you've never possessed it,
and you also don't have an immediate hope of possesssing it -- or you would
go right out and get your own, different but similar one of whatever it is.

On the other hand, jealousy has seemed more personal -- someone else has
taken something that you felt entitled to or which you actually thought you
had and should still have. So you're angry at the person who's taken away
your XXX (toy, lover, job, etc...).

So envy seems more of a longing, and jealousy has a strong component of
anger and spite.

Rosemary C. Hyde

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

This is a very good exercise especially for those for who English is not
their mother tongue!

A wife will feel jealous if another woman (perhaps perceived to be more
beautiful than her) makes approaches to her husband or if the husband makes
approaches to her (or in some cases even as mush as looks at another woman)
and will feel envious of the other woman's beauty, etc

So one jealously 'protects' - Othello???????
and enviously 'desires'.
Both feelings can become violent and destructive.

Lack of confidence may also be contributing factor.

Rgds
Soroush

[Arun]

Hi Mary-Anne,

i was in "listening" mode till now on the list, thought now i'll jump
in......

we used to have a lot of discussions about the exact meaning of the (mental)
rubrics in kent, and they are no doubt very helpful in getting a clearer
understining. but something which one of my teachers said struck me as
pretty reasonable, and i thought i'll share it with you.

One of the Primary concerns of kent while preparing his repertory was not to
"tamper" with the proving symptoms, a criticism he makes againt
Boenninghausen. - see how minutely he has given the rubrics and subrubrics
in extremities chapter for example. He has stuck to the exact wordings so
faithfully that in , many subrubrics there are very few remedies.

The same thing may be seen in the mind chapter also. this results in a lot
of very similar rubrics - childish behaviour / foolish behaviour,
jealousy/envy etc. if this is the case, then the remedy groupings under
the rubrics may not be based on the exact meaning of the word, but on what
was given in the provings or source books - in the kents repertory , one of
the most important sources is the "Guiding symptoms" by Hering

for eg if you search the word envy in "guiding symptoms" you get two drugs
Pulsatilla - ¤ Mistrust; envy; covetousness; dislike to people.
Staphysagria - ¤ Suffering from pride, envy or chagrin.

here we do not get a description of what exactly was the prover's/patient's
feeling, to assess whether it was envy or jealousy etc. ( there are no
references to "envy" for both these remedies in either hahnemann's writings
or in allen's encyclopedia) but these are the two drugs with the highest
marks in the rubric envy !

so it appears that at least in some of the rubrics, kent was being
"faithful" to the source books, and if we attempt to differentiate the
rubrics according to the dictionary meaning or its common usage, we may miss
out on some of the drugs. It may be more appropriate to combine the
rubrics in such cases where meaning of the rubrics are very close.

i am interested in hearing what others have to say about this

regards,
Arun

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

If you need to use a dictionary for the meaning of the words, you must use
one that was in use say at the time of Kent.

David Sault's book 'A modern guide and index to the mental rubrics of Kent's
repertory' Merlyn Publishers isbn 90800845-1-4 is useful because he used a
Webster Dictionary from about 1890!

Rgds
Soroush