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Minutus • For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17
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Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:14 pm
by John Harvey
Dear Soroush,

Thank you for the opportunity, though I'm not sure anything I can say
is going to clarify anything before you post it. It's not-so-early
morning here now, and the fact is that I'm not awake enough to be sure
of what you're saying here. But I think that what you're getting at
is that Hahnemann's use of intercurrents as described here sounds very
like what Irene is doing.

I won't speak for Irene, but I think she'll hotly deny it. (But I
think that Luise will rather confirm it, on the basis that this makes
Hahnemann too a polypharmacist.)

I'd like to see what Irene's response is to the direct suggestion, if
you put it to her, that what she is doing is exhausting the use of one
medicine before administering the other -- or even perhaps antidoting
it by the other. I think she'll boldly state that it's imperative
that the two remedies act at the same time.

I too am unsure why a lot of fuss was made of Irene's brave new double
remedy that's not polypharmacy. But the original post actually had
nothing to do with Irene's kittens. It was a question from a highly
interested and intelligent and humble woman, Margaret in Boston, about
why homoeopaths don't embrace combinations as a standard part of
homoeopathic practice rather than leave them out in the cold.
Margaret drew some great answers, and one of the first of them was
from Irene herself! The kittens came in later as examples of the
superiority of polypharmacy (not called that, naturally).

Irene's most consistent argument has been that what keeps her style of
polypharmacy from violating the definition of homoeopathy is not the
slight displacement in time (though she says that such a displacement
is her more "usual" practice) between the two medicines, as you might
think; it's the "magic bullet" effect: one remedy is for the illness,
the other passes straight through to elsewhere; therefore there's only
one remedy and no polypharmacy. (Also, of course, there's the
argument that Hahnemann's criticism of polypharmacy was not directed
at the use of fewer than three drugs.)

I hope those thoughts are of some use. Only Irene can make sense of
all these contradictions.

The only other thing I'd note, if your intent is to post what you've
sent me, is that it's not entirely clear to me at all points whether
you might be quoting somebody else. (But that may be just my brain
shutting down.) And one small thing, a typo maybe:

"This vital force is thereby too violent and too suddenly assailed and
excited" -- I think you want "violently" rather than "violent"?

Sorry if I haven't done your question justice. I'll read over it
again when I'm awake. :-)

Cheers!

John
--
------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands
science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We
might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this
combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our
faces."

-- Carl Sagan

For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:54 pm
by Luise Kunkle
Hi John,
No, I do not see that he said this in his footnote at all. Whether he
meant X when he said Y - well that is always a matter of opinion:-)

He did, however, work that way quite often, and he also gave a
different remedy (mostly by olfaction, sometimes dry) right in the
course of treatment with the pre-set doses of dilutions. This is not
an opinion but a fact that can be verified by anyone reading his
casebooks after around 1830.

It is up to you to decide whether this makes him a polypharmacist or a
homeopath using non-homeopathic methods in his practical work:-)

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:19 am
by Irene de Villiers
John Harvey wrote:..... But I think that what you're getting at

Very comparable yes.
She did not - see above. Maybe you should let Irene do her own thinking
as well as her own speaking? *She* is qualified to do it:-)
Doesn't look like you want to see Irene's response - since you provided
your version of it as if it is hers.
In fact - No Irene shall not so state, boldly or otherwise.
You're trying to do "Irene's thinking" again so as to push your views
while attributing them to Irene.

Irene hereby bows out of this John-thinking-for-her conversation.
If someone wants Irene's views, they are quite able to ask for them
directly and without providing their own prejudiced responses ahead of time.

The rest of the post is in the same prejudicial you-think-for-others and
pre-empt the answers style, and that is not useful or respectful for
dicussion purposes in my opinion.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:50 am
by John Harvey
Dear Luise and Irene,

I was under the impression that I was replying to a private message;
it seems I was mistaken. Thank you both for your responses.

Luise, your response is at least entirely consistent with your
previous express views that the masters really practised not what they
preached but what you preach. Without wanting to suggest that your
grasp of history is weaker in this case than it has been elsewhere, I
wonder whether you necessarily have your facts about Hahnemann
entirely straight; I doubt the value of engaging in discussion over
"facts" that may turn out to be a little misrepresentative. Having no
knowledge myself in this matter, I'd be interested initially to know
whether this understanding of Hahnemann's practice is shared by other
informed readers in this area.

Irene, if I'm understanding correctly -- please correct me if not --
you are saying that you too believe that Hahnemann's practice was
comparable to what you do (leaving aside the term polypharmacy). This
surprises me more than a little. I understood that you believed very
firmly that Hahnemann, and every homoeopath after him till you, had
overlooked the value of doing any such thing. Have your views on this
changed? Do you now say that the quoted footnote offers Hahnemann's
support for your mode of prescribing double remedies?

Thanks again to you both. Cheers --

John
--
------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands
science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We
might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this
combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our
faces."

-- Carl Sagan

Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:02 am
by Irene de Villiers
John Harvey wrote:

No YOU are saying:-)
As usual John, those are your words attributed to me, and not my words.

What I've said is I believe quite clear in my own emails.
I did not enter the realm of comparing what I do to what Hahnemann or
anyone else did. I simply explained what I do and why, and that *I*
believe it is homeopathic and individualized - and MY thinking for using
the approach.
I'm sorry if that's not enough for you, but what *I* wrote, IS my
thinking. The rest is your thinking:-)
My view is appropriate for me, because it results in homeopathic
successes long-term - which is actually all I care about. That was the
only reason I wanted to share it. I'll say it yet again - I'd like MORE
homeopaths to have successes in FIP (and/or similar) cases, and if
something I did could be useful to another homeopath, I'm glad to share
it here - that was/is my motivation.
Again - my views were well stated in my own emails.
That was not MY suggestion.
I respect all that is in the Organon as being part of homeopathy, but my
objectives are more directly towards success in the way I described in
MY emails. Please do not add to them as you are wont to do - if you
don't like what I wrote - sorry but that's all I offer. What I said is
in them, and I did not add the extras you have added and assumed here
and elsewhere.

I suspect you are interested in playing games with theories and
semantics about what I wrote - but that's not my interest area and I
decline to play.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:48 pm
by Shannon Nelson
The arguments about what is or is not directly described in the Organon
I think may be missing a more important point, that being what
practices are supporting the *goals* put forth in the organon--rapid,
gentle and lasting cure. As is often noted, Hahnemann himself changed
his procedures as he found appropriate, in an ongoing search for
greater effectiveness, in a greater range of patients and situations.
I can't imagine Hahnemann saying, "Rats, these [FIP kitties] keep dying
on me, but if I can't cure them according to my rules, then I guess
I'll just let them die!" Somehow I can't imagine that...
Shannon

Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:29 pm
by Teresa Kramer
I love your posts (getting boring hearing that over and over, right? J) and you are SO kind and gentle with replies to Jeff—and so funny below! Hugs, t
________________________________

From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert & Shannon Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 9:48 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: For John Harvey : [Minutus] Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17
The arguments about what is or is not directly described in the Organon I think may be missing a more important point, that being what practices are supporting the *goals* put forth in the organon--rapid, gentle and lasting cure. As is often noted, Hahnemann himself changed his procedures as he found appropriate, in an ongoing search for greater effectiveness, in a greater range of patients and situations. I can't imagine Hahnemann saying, "Rats, these [FIP kitties] keep dying on me, but if I can't cure them according to my rules, then I guess I'll just let them die!" Somehow I can't imagine that...
Shannon

Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:39 pm
by Luise Kunkle
Hi John,
By which you imply that there are people on this list or around who
have read at least one of Hahnemann's casebooks. I wish it were so - I
should love to discuss and be shown where I am wrong.

Perhaps you could do it? I should think that you know someone who can
read either German or French. So why don't you get one of Hahnemann's
published Paris casebooks and and ask or pay someone to translate for
you the relevant cases. I'll gladly hunt the pages up for you.

This way you can have the joy to prove me wrong - and you will also at
least get an idea about what Irene is talking about when she writes
about doing research:-)

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:32 pm
by Irene de Villiers
Robert & Shannon Nelson wrote:

Hi Shannon,
Thanks - I could not have said it better :-) It's the principles
always that matter, over any rules/guidelines developed from them.

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Re: For John Harvey : Foot note to Aph 246 Organon 5 - Was Organon 6 -17

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:51 am
by John Harvey
Hi, Luise --

It would be interesting to get several points of view on the meaning
of some of the Paris casebooks' contents, wouldn't it, but I'm under
the impression that photocopies of them are not to be found too
readily. Just how available are they to mere mortals distributed
around the planet, do you know?

Cheers --

John
--
------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands
science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We
might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this
combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our
faces."

-- Carl Sagan