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Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:31 am
by Sheri Nakken
Hilary Butler on Tetanus
You will see that 'they' (science) don't have the answers, don't have a
clue many poisoning symptoms resemble tetanus
some bug bite symptoms resemble tetanus

Do you get immunity with tetanus - do you even have tetanus?????

There is NO DIAGNOSTIC test for tetanus - they just look at you and decide
because you have a certain set of symptoms that you have tetanus.
Here is a long post from Hilary Butler
She has researched vaccines for MANY MANY years and testifies in court
cases and helps defened parents wrongly accused of harming their children
when it is vaccine damage, and helps in cases to try and prove vaccine damage
She lives in NZ

See what you glean from this
This is the one vaccine that is the hardest to give up for many non-vaxers
- NOT HARD FOR ME
Sheri
______________________________________________
By email

Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Tetanus is another one of those things which I spent years researching. I
have a long tome which is not in a format to put it into E, so you will be
spared another Sheri post. Instead you will get a tome of a different kind.
No, I would not have the vaccine, and in making that choice, this is some
of the information I would have thought about. I'm not putting it all,
otherwise I'd be here writing, in a weeks time...

FACTS

The first is that Australia did a study the results of which were published
in the New Zealand Doctor 18, March 1993, pg 23. This was the first time a
study like this had ever been done..., to see what the antibody levels were
in people 10 years after their last booster. Here is what the medical
article said:

quote:

Too many tetanus shots Some people having tetanus boosters already have
antibody levels more than 8,000 times (eight thousand) the protective level
needed, suggesting Australia's regime of a booster every 10 years is in
need of a change. Community physicians say Australia should adopt the UK
regime which advises after five doses, further boosters are unnecessary.

So the first thing maybe, is go have a titre count done.

But lets look at this titre thing. Way back in the 80's there was a study
done in the Scandinavian J Infect Dis 1983: 15;303 -306, which looked at
soldiers who had been given heaps of tetanus vaccine. Their antibody levels
were way too high as well, and what they discovered was that "repeated
exposure to an antigen, or an overdose of antigen, will not continually
enhance the immune response and may lead to inhibition or telerance at
either T or B cells level.. in addition, a possible feedback effect
stimulated by the high level of toxoid antibodies may suppress, as Stevens
and Saxon have illustrated, the production of more antibodies at a later date"

Okay? Do you understand the implications of this?

It came out loud and clear in The Journal of Family Practice, 1997, Vol 44,
No 3, pg 299 - 303 when a 29 year old man was admitted with severe
generalised tetanus despite having had a primary series and two booster
injections. And his levels were only 100 times that considered protective,
not 8,000 times as per the Australian study!!!.

Now, if you look at the New Zealand scene, where it was pointed out in the
New Zealand Medical Journal (24th November 1994)that most people over 35
are unlikely to have had a vaccine, since it was only inroduced in 1960,
then you have to ask yourself why every over-40 year old, isn't dropping
dead with tetanus. In 1987 a serum survey showed that just over 50% of the
60-65 group had immunity to tetanus. 83% of the 20-29 year olds, 64% of the
30 -35 year olds. And the stats aren't that much better today. I understand
they are even lower for the USA than for here. So where did the people with
immunity get it from? Many were not vaccinated...see later...

Now, if you have a look at Tetanus in America, one of the most interesting
articles is a 1969 one from the New England Medical Journal, Volume 280,
Number 11, March 13. And on pages 570 there is a really interesting decline
graph for mortality rates, which shows that the mortality rate plummetted
dramatically from 64/100,000 in 1900to 8/100,000. in 1940. By 1950, with
most mothers still unvaccinated, it was 4.5/100,000.

Not that Tetanus was ever a very common cause of death before hand anyway,
in relation to all the other things that historically could do you in.
Marasmus was a much more common killer of children than neonatal tetanus
ever was... for instance.

They say that it may have been the use of anti-toxin from 1923, but I know
far too much about antitoxin to believe that!!! Antitoxin can kill all by
itself, primarily because it is made in horses, and has horrendous
side-effects in its own right. And some people treated with anti-tetanus
toxoid, will die of the toxoid side-effects, but that is the risk you take,
if you think yu have a chance of dying anyway.....

But the article also recognises that the anti-toxin is not the only reason,
because they cover their bums by also talking about improved obstetric
techniques and neonatal care. And I would have to say wound care also. But
the graph is pretty amazing.

In interesting study in the American Journal of Public Health, August 1984,
Vol 74, No 8, showed that in 1,900 adults over 20 years of age, the overall
percentage immunised was 38.6%. Now if, in 1979, in american, only 38.6% of
adults were immunised, what are the factors which operated then to prevent
thousands of adults daily dying from tetanus?

And obviously there are people still around in USA who still have never
been vaccinated. and haven't died yet. But let's look at something else as
well. As to why tetanus has always been a rare disease in civilian
communities in places like America.

The medical profession has always stated that a person does not acquire
natural immunity to tetanus. But the funny thing is that in 1975 in Dakar,
in the proceeding of the 4th international symposium on tetanus, they
talked about "latent" natural immunity causing reactions to primary
immunisation. Then there was the study in JAMA Nov 19, 1982, Volume 248, No
19, in which a large number of the unvaccianted Amish showed serological
evidence of immunity to both diphtheria and tetanus.

(Incidentally, the same was though about rabies (that there is no natural
immunity), until a recent study showed that in Alaskan trappers who had
never had any vaccine, they too had antibodies. Poof goes that theory)

Now, New Zealand should be THE prime hot-bed for tetanus. Everywhere you
turn, you fall over horses, etc etc - cows, sheep dogs. opossums, you name
it. And even here, Tetanus occurs sometimes, but not often. And what has
been most interesting to me is in WHOM it occurs. Recently, I was able to
to a bit of poking into the lives of 4 self-confessed tetanus sufferers who
were in the stats. And every single one of them had factors in their lives
which pre-disposed them to tetanus. One had even had a 3 primary 1 booster
schedule, and she ate refined foods, drank, smoked, and did recreation
drugs. Well, hey. What state was her immune system in!!! didn't stand a
chance at doing its job...

The other three ate the usual white flour, white sugar, coke, biscuits,very
little fruit and vegetables.....

One one was what I would call reasonable healthy, but he smoked like a
train - which as I showed him from the med lit, suppresses the immune
system considerably, especially in the airways and gut area...

Now, someone here said tetanus is only a risk with rusty nails /horses etc.

It would be wonderful if that were so, but it isn't.

For a start, 5% of us carry it in our guts, happily replicating. In fact,
at one time, the best way to get tetanus in the medical literature was to
have a hemorrhoid dealt with. Until they got wise to that one..

Tetanus is ubiquitous in our environment. It is everywhere, on everything.

Where do you think it comes from on the rusty nail? Why do you think it is
that the highest rate of tetanus in vaccinated people is in homeless drug
shooters?

Go get some dust from your mantle-piece tested and it will be there, 10 to
the power 6. It is found in bullet wounds, human bite wounds (!!) on your
carrots - you likely eat it every day. There is nowhere that tetanus is
not. In your carpet, on your soil, and often, on your skin. And if you
don't believe me, read the medical literature.

And far from rusty nails being the most common cause of tetanus, that is
not true. Rusty nails account for less that 40% of tetanus. Most tetanus
comes where there is no discernable "portal of entry". It has even been
identified following ear-ache (which left me somewhat gob-smacked --- did
the kid have grommets? and the thing shoved in the ear to "look see",
transfer Tetanus Clostridium? That wasn't even considered...)

Lets look at a bit more history from the medical literature. It has always
been known that war-time historically showed up the highest rate of
tetanus. Far higher than in civilians. Bullet/schrapnel wounds and all, and
the stress of fighting.

Boer war .28 of every thousand wounded got tetanus.
Crimean war 2.0 per 1,000
Am. Civil war 2.0 per thousand
Western front (Flanders horse country WWI average 1.47/thousand wounded.
2nd world war varied from .06 - .43 per thousand. ( and not everyone there
was vaccinated either. In the paper on the American Tetanus cases, most who
got tetanus had been vaccinated....)

(The difference between the 2nd WW and the first has nothing to do with the
vaccine in my opinion. The second world war was in many ways, far more
hygienically fought. Where were all the mud-filled trenches, and ghastly
living conditions in the second world war, compared to the first? Those who
know their history will see that right away...)

Now, the question should be, not why did the few actually GET tetanus, but
why didn't the other 998 per thousand wounded get it? Especially when you
realise that it was days, if not weeks, before those wounded people got any
serious attention. When you read about weeks in stinking ships amongst the
wounded from Gallipoli on their way to hospital in EGYPT as well as the
substandard treatment, you have to wonder why they all didn't die.

The answer lies IMO in the unique susceptibility of the individual. That a
vaccine can confer immunity is not the question that needs to be answered.
The medical profession attributes the decrease in Tetanus SOLELY to
vaccination which is grossly misleading.

I mean, look at your family trees? Did all your great-grandparents die of
tetanus? Nope. Did they never get exposed to it? ACtually, they had far
more wounds likely to have harboured it, than we do today...

A good read of the medical textbooks of the 20's gives some idea as to one
chief reason..... In a study done in 1919-1920 by Dr Harriette Chick of the
lister Institute, and other working in Pirquets clinic in Vienna, showed
that "nearly all children in Central Europe were more or less rachitic"

Remember Rickets? Remember being lined up with cod-liver oil and
black-strap molasses. (Last year, there was an article which shows that
rickets is rising again in the USA....)

Most older people living now can remember the free milk, cod-liver oil by
the spoon-full. One here has already made derogatory comments about it....
Even in the rich communities in London in the 30's there were still over
30% of children with definable nutritional deficiencies...

Now, its interesting in that light, to know that there are studies which
show that when you vaccinate people whose nutritional status is not good,
at least 30% do not respond to the vaccine, even when given highly
concentrated fluid toxoids (Med J Aust, Aug 7, 1976). Again the work by
Chandra shows that their rate of non-conversion to the vaccine gets higher
with the degree of malnutrition, and that malnourished mothers pass on such
low levels of IgG that the babies' passive immunity is virtually nil.

There is no way around the blinding revelation of the obvious that

1) Bad nutrition is a very serious immune suppressor

2) Immune suppression, or malfunction, is the chief determiner of the
severity of tetanus.

And the work by Chandra et all, shows that obesity causes immune changes
similar to those caused by malnutrition, so nutritional status is
wide-ranging in its implications.

And then there is the hysteria factor which suppresses the immune system as
well, which was amply demonstrated in the USA in Johb Paul's book "The
history of Polio" where at times when the media hype was bordering on the
screaming paranoid, people would be admitted with what they called
"pseudo-polio"

Talking of hysteria, rember that hysteria is one of the differential
diagnoses of tetanus, as is hypocalcemia, meningitis, rabies, drug
withdrawal, strychnine poisoning, and dystonic drug reaction.

"red streaks" may have nothing to do with tetanus at all. When I was in USA
in 1993, I got a chigger bite, which the chemist treated with what looked
like nail polish, and said it would be just fine. Well, it wasn't. After 4
days, my legs ached, and I had red streaks up to the groin. And while my
hosts freaked their heads off, I plonked myself in the bath, took a
sterilised 3 inch needle, put a piece of wood between my teeth, and opened
it up in a Y shape. The rotten chigger, and pus exploded everywhere....

And within three days, the red streaks had completely gone as had all
infection. And since I am fatally allergic to all antibiotics, no, I didn't
use them. I let my body do the job it is designed for, with judicious help
from vitamin quackery.....

Back to history

There is much made of the fact that the Japanese soldiers in WWII had a lot
of tetanus in comparison to the Americans. 14 per hundred.... But when
researching this, I was interested to read this "We embarked 284 wounded
Japanese soldiers. We found them to be generally dirty, emaciated and with
wounds that had been improperly treated." By contrast, the 384 wounded US
solders were described as clean, well-fed with wounds that had been
promptly treated.

Aparently this counted for nothing, and that the reason the USA soldiers
had escaped "in comparison" was the vaccine. Which makes me very annoyed,
because there is another factor they missed out, which is integral to
understanding the japanese-- What was not taken into account was that to be
taken captive was the ultimate in disgrace to any japanese, and many lost
the will to live, and died anyway. Imagine the shape of the immune system
of someone with no hope....

Now you would think too, that ALL the US personnel during WWII who got
tetanus would have been unimmunised, but not so. There were twelve cases. 6
of them had completed an immunisation schedule, and one had had one shot.
And three of the 6 with a completed schedule, died. Three of the
unvaccinated suvived. The one who had had one shot, survived. Seems sort of
50/50 to me. (Bull US Army Med Dept, Vol VII, no 4, April 1947). The
British records are even stranger, with the immunized often having a higher
overall case mortality record than the unimmunsed. In the Lancet, Jan 26,
1946, pg 116 looking at the case Mortality rates, in the "protected" it was
50%, in the Unprotected it was 46.8%, and in the incomplete or doubtful it
was 42.1%.

The list of side-effects which I have for Tetanus vaccine is huge, but I
won't go into that. What I wanted to reinforce was nutritional status, and
some history, but finally to draw your attention to a most interesting
study. This is found in the Bangladesh medical Research Council Bulleting,
Volume 10, No 1, June 1984.

As I said, a differential diagnosis is Strynchnine poisoning. The first
part was to take two day old chicks divided into fur groups with 15 birds
in each. Group one got 5 nanograms of strychnine sulphate (SS). Group 2 got
SS plus 30 mg of Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) Group 3 10 nonograms of SS, and
group 4 got10 nanos SS and 30 mg Vitamin C. The results were:

Group one, Wings of all birds stretched, Some walked on toes, others kept
jumping but could not walk.

Group 2 - No symptoms

Group 3, Extensor paralysis of legs, opisthotonus and severe
convulsions,and all but three died.

Group 4, Extensor paralysis in 3 chicks. No neurological symptoms in
others. the affected bird recovered in about 30 minutes after the
appearance of symptoms.

Then they randomly assigned tetanus cases into four groups.

Ages 1-11

No Vitamin C = 72% mortality rate.

Vitamin C 0% mortality rate.

Ages 13 - 30

Vitamin C, 37% mortality

Non Vitamin C 67.8 % mortality rate.

But they made one mistake with this. All patients got 1,000 mg of Vitamin
C. They did not ADJUST UPWARDS the dose of vitamin C for the bigger body
weight. Had they done that, the results might have been different. They did
another study looking at the use of B 6, pyrodoxine and found that that
also reduced both severity an mortality.

Think on that. Tetanus is a toxin-mediated disease, rather like diphtheria.
It is determined by nutritional status, and immune function more than
anything else...

But there is another interesting fact. The body, with a wound, puts up
"road-blocks" to stop the toxin spreading. It is fascinating to me, that it
has long been known that "Wound excision should be delayed until the
antitoxin is given, as free tetanospasmin is mobilized into the
blood-stream during surgical manipulation." In other words, debridement of
wounds breaks open these road-blocks, and floods the system with poison....

I also found in interesting that in the Am J Dis Child Vol 135, June 1981,
Pg 571 it says "the mortality in reported cases of tetanus is higher in the
USA than in developing countries." Perhaps it is because in the USA the
methods of treatment are very invastive, include debridement, tracheotomy -
a whole host of things which just can't be done in developing countries,
not just because of cost, but also because of infection risk.

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

Re: Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:28 pm
by M and E O'CONNELL
Sheri,
Thanks for all the info on tetnus. Before hearing any replies I decided to act being it was my son and as a mother I needed to do something. I gave Arnica 30C in water, 1 tsp. from the rsb. I gave two doses all together about 3 hours apart with 8 succussions. Within 24 hours the wound was almost completely healed, scab and all. It was black at first, then fell off. I'm wondering with the wound already healed, could he still get the tetnus within the 8 days (which is when I read it usually appears after the injury)? Thanks again. You're a reservoir of information. Elyn

Re: Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:57 pm
by Sarvadaman Oberoi
Ledum and Hypericum are the remedies of choice for tetanus.
The internal healing of the wound takes time. Possibly giving one of these remedies for a week or so would be prophylactic and well advised.
Sarvadaman
________________________________

From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M and E O'CONNELL
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:35 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus
Sheri,
Thanks for all the info on tetnus. Before hearing any replies I decided to act being it was my son and as a mother I needed to do something. I gave Arnica 30C in water, 1 tsp. from the rsb. I gave two doses all together about 3 hours apart with 8 succussions. Within 24 hours the wound was almost completely healed, scab and all. It was black at first, then fell off. I'm wondering with the wound already healed, could he still get the tetnus within the 8 days (which is when I read it usually appears after the injury)? Thanks again. You're a reservoir of information. Elyn

Re: Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:05 pm
by Sheri Nakken
for completion by Friday May 22
Lesson 9, Part 2 - Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus
You will see that 'they' (science) don't have the answers, don't have a clue
many poisoning symptoms resemble tetanus
some bug bite symptoms resemble tetanus

Do you get immunity with tetanus - do you even have tetanus?????

There is NO DIAGNOSTIC test for tetanus - they just look at you and
decide because you have a certain set of symptoms that you have tetanus.
Here is a long post from Hilary Butler (many of you know her from
mothering.com board)
She has researched vaccines for MANY MANY years and testifies in
court cases and helps defened parents wrongly accused of harming
their children when it is vaccine damage, and helps in cases to try
and prove vaccine damage
She lives in NZ

See what you glean from this

More in Part 2 with the class when we actually deal with tetanus.
This is the one vaccine that is the hardest to give up for many
non-vaxers - NOT HARD FOR ME
Sheri
______________________________________________
By email

Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Tetanus is another one of those things which I spent years
researching. I have a long tome which is not in a format to put it
into E, so you will be spared another Sheri post. Instead you will
get a tome of a different kind. No, I would not have the vaccine, and
in making that choice, this is some of the information I would have
thought about. I'm not putting it all, otherwise I'd be here writing,
in a weeks time...

FACTS

The first is that Australia did a study the results of which were
published in the New Zealand Doctor 18, March 1993, pg 23. This was
the first time a study like this had ever been done..., to see what
the antibody levels were in people 10 years after their last booster.
Here is what the medical article said:

quote:

Too many tetanus shots Some people having tetanus boosters already
have antibody levels more than 8,000 times (eight thousand) the
protective level needed, suggesting Australia's regime of a booster
every 10 years is in need of a change. Community physicians say
Australia should adopt the UK regime which advises after five doses,
further boosters are unnecessary.

So the first thing maybe, is go have a titre count done.

But lets look at this titre thing. Way back in the 80's there was a
study done in the Scandinavian J Infect Dis 1983: 15;303 -306, which
looked at soldiers who had been given heaps of tetanus vaccine. Their
antibody levels were way too high as well, and what they discovered
was that "repeated exposure to an antigen, or an overdose of antigen,
will not continually enhance the immune response and may lead to
inhibition or telerance at either T or B cells level.. in addition, a
possible feedback effect stimulated by the high level of toxoid
antibodies may suppress, as Stevens
and Saxon have illustrated, the production of more antibodies at a later date"

Okay? Do you understand the implications of this?

It came out loud and clear in The Journal of Family Practice, 1997,
Vol 44, No 3, pg 299 - 303 when a 29 year old man was admitted with
severe generalised tetanus despite having had a primary series and
two booster injections. And his levels were only 100 times that
considered protective, not 8,000 times as per the Australian study!!!.

Now, if you look at the New Zealand scene, where it was pointed out
in the New Zealand Medical Journal (24th November 1994)that most
people over 35 are unlikely to have had a vaccine, since it was only
inroduced in 1960, then you have to ask yourself why every over-40
year old, isn't dropping
dead with tetanus. In 1987 a serum survey showed that just over 50%
of the 60-65 group had immunity to tetanus. 83% of the 20-29 year
olds, 64% of the 30 -35 year olds. And the stats aren't that much
better today. I understand they are even lower for the USA than for
here. So where did the people with immunity get it from? Many were
not vaccinated...see later...

Now, if you have a look at Tetanus in America, one of the most
interesting articles is a 1969 one from the New England Medical
Journal, Volume 280, Number 11, March 13. And on pages 570 there is a
really interesting decline graph for mortality rates, which shows
that the mortality rate plummetted dramatically from 64/100,000 in
1900to 8/100,000. in 1940. By 1950, with most mothers still
unvaccinated, it was 4.5/100,000.

Not that Tetanus was ever a very common cause of death before hand
anyway, in relation to all the other things that historically could
do you in. Marasmus was a much more common killer of children than
neonatal tetanus ever was... for instance.

They say that it may have been the use of anti-toxin from 1923, but I
know far too much about antitoxin to believe that!!! Antitoxin can
kill all by itself, primarily because it is made in horses, and has
horrendous side-effects in its own right. And some people treated
with anti-tetanus toxoid, will die of the toxoid side-effects, but
that is the risk you take, if you think yu have a chance of dying anyway.....

But the article also recognises that the anti-toxin is not the only
reason, because they cover their bums by also talking about improved
obstetric techniques and neonatal care. And I would have to say wound
care also. But the graph is pretty amazing.

In interesting study in the American Journal of Public Health, August
1984, Vol 74, No 8, showed that in 1,900 adults over 20 years of age,
the overall percentage immunised was 38.6%. Now if, in 1979, in
american, only 38.6% of adults were immunised, what are the factors
which operated then to prevent thousands of adults daily dying from tetanus?

And obviously there are people still around in USA who still have
never been vaccinated. and haven't died yet. But let's look at
something else as well. As to why tetanus has always been a rare
disease in civilian communities in places like America.

The medical profession has always stated that a person does not
acquire natural immunity to tetanus. But the funny thing is that in
1975 in Dakar, in the proceeding of the 4th international symposium
on tetanus, they talked about "latent" natural immunity causing
reactions to primary immunisation. Then there was the study in JAMA
Nov 19, 1982, Volume 248, No 19, in which a large number of the
unvaccianted Amish showed serological evidence of immunity to both
diphtheria and tetanus.

(Incidentally, the same was though about rabies (that there is no
natural immunity), until a recent study showed that in Alaskan
trappers who had never had any vaccine, they too had antibodies. Poof
goes that theory)

Now, New Zealand should be THE prime hot-bed for tetanus. Everywhere
you turn, you fall over horses, etc etc - cows, sheep dogs. opossums,
you name it. And even here, Tetanus occurs sometimes, but not often.
And what has been most interesting to me is in WHOM it occurs.
Recently, I was able to to a bit of poking into the lives of 4
self-confessed tetanus sufferers who were in the stats. And every
single one of them had factors in their lives which pre-disposed them
to tetanus. One had even had a 3 primary 1 booster schedule, and she
ate refined foods, drank, smoked, and did recreation drugs. Well,
hey. What state was her immune system in!!! didn't stand a
chance at doing its job...

The other three ate the usual white flour, white sugar, coke,
biscuits,very little fruit and vegetables.....

One one was what I would call reasonable healthy, but he smoked like
a train - which as I showed him from the med lit, suppresses the
immune system considerably, especially in the airways and gut area...

Now, someone here said tetanus is only a risk with rusty nails /horses etc.

It would be wonderful if that were so, but it isn't.

For a start, 5% of us carry it in our guts, happily replicating. In
fact, at one time, the best way to get tetanus in the medical
literature was to have a hemorrhoid dealt with. Until they got wise
to that one..

Tetanus is ubiquitous in our environment. It is everywhere, on everything.

Where do you think it comes from on the rusty nail? Why do you think
it is that the highest rate of tetanus in vaccinated people is in
homeless drug shooters?

Go get some dust from your mantle-piece tested and it will be there,
10 to the power 6. It is found in bullet wounds, human bite wounds
(!!) on your carrots - you likely eat it every day. There is nowhere
that tetanus is not. In your carpet, on your soil, and often, on your
skin. And if you don't believe me, read the medical literature.

And far from rusty nails being the most common cause of tetanus, that is
not true. Rusty nails account for less that 40% of tetanus. Most tetanus
comes where there is no discernable "portal of entry". It has even been
identified following ear-ache (which left me somewhat gob-smacked --- did
the kid have grommets? and the thing shoved in the ear to "look see",
transfer Tetanus Clostridium? That wasn't even considered...)

Lets look at a bit more history from the medical literature. It has
always been known that war-time historically showed up the highest
rate of tetanus. Far higher than in civilians. Bullet/schrapnel
wounds and all, and the stress of fighting.

Boer war .28 of every thousand wounded got tetanus.
Crimean war 2.0 per 1,000
Am. Civil war 2.0 per thousand
Western front (Flanders horse country WWI average 1.47/thousand
wounded. 2nd world war varied from .06 - .43 per thousand. ( and not
everyone there was vaccinated either. In the paper on the American
Tetanus cases, most who got tetanus had been vaccinated....)

(The difference between the 2nd WW and the first has nothing to do
with the vaccine in my opinion. The second world war was in many
ways, far more hygienically fought. Where were all the mud-filled
trenches, and ghastly living conditions in the second world war,
compared to the first? Those who
know their history will see that right away...)

Now, the question should be, not why did the few actually GET
tetanus, but why didn't the other 998 per thousand wounded get it?
Especially when you realise that it was days, if not weeks, before
those wounded people got any serious attention. When you read about
weeks in stinking ships amongst the wounded from Gallipoli on their
way to hospital in EGYPT as well as the substandard treatment, you
have to wonder why they all didn't die.

The answer lies IMO in the unique susceptibility of the individual.
That a vaccine can confer immunity is not the question that needs to
be answered. The medical profession attributes the decrease in
Tetanus SOLELY to vaccination which is grossly misleading.

I mean, look at your family trees? Did all your great-grandparents
die of tetanus? Nope. Did they never get exposed to it? ACtually,
they had far more wounds likely to have harboured it, than we do today...

A good read of the medical textbooks of the 20's gives some idea as
to one chief reason..... In a study done in 1919-1920 by Dr Harriette
Chick of the lister Institute, and other working in Pirquets clinic
in Vienna, showed that "nearly all children in Central Europe were
more or less rachitic"

Remember Rickets? Remember being lined up with cod-liver oil and
black-strap molasses. (Last year, there was an article which shows
that rickets is rising again in the USA....)

Most older people living now can remember the free milk, cod-liver
oil by the spoon-full. One here has already made derogatory comments
about it.... Even in the rich communities in London in the 30's there
were still over 30% of children with definable nutritional deficiencies...

Now, its interesting in that light, to know that there are studies
which show that when you vaccinate people whose nutritional status is
not good, at least 30% do not respond to the vaccine, even when given
highly concentrated fluid toxoids (Med J Aust, Aug 7, 1976). Again
the work by Chandra shows that their rate of non-conversion to the
vaccine gets higher with the degree of malnutrition, and that
malnourished mothers pass on such low levels of IgG that the babies'
passive immunity is virtually nil.

There is no way around the blinding revelation of the obvious that

1) Bad nutrition is a very serious immune suppressor

2) Immune suppression, or malfunction, is the chief determiner of the
severity of tetanus.

And the work by Chandra et all, shows that obesity causes immune
changes similar to those caused by malnutrition, so nutritional
status is wide-ranging in its implications.

And then there is the hysteria factor which suppresses the immune
system as well, which was amply demonstrated in the USA in Johb
Paul's book "The history of Polio" where at times when the media hype
was bordering on the screaming paranoid, people would be admitted
with what they called
"pseudo-polio"

Talking of hysteria, rember that hysteria is one of the differential
diagnoses of tetanus, as is hypocalcemia, meningitis, rabies, drug
withdrawal, strychnine poisoning, and dystonic drug reaction.

"red streaks" may have nothing to do with tetanus at all. When I was
in USA in 1993, I got a chigger bite, which the chemist treated with
what looked like nail polish, and said it would be just fine. Well,
it wasn't. After 4 days, my legs ached, and I had red streaks up to
the groin. And while my hosts freaked their heads off, I plonked
myself in the bath, took a sterilised 3 inch needle, put a piece of
wood between my teeth, and opened it up in a Y shape. The rotten
chigger, and pus exploded everywhere....

And within three days, the red streaks had completely gone as had all
infection. And since I am fatally allergic to all antibiotics, no, I
didn't use them. I let my body do the job it is designed for, with
judicious help from vitamin quackery.....

Back to history

There is much made of the fact that the Japanese soldiers in WWII had
a lot of tetanus in comparison to the Americans. 14 per hundred....
But when researching this, I was interested to read this "We embarked
284 wounded Japanese soldiers. We found them to be generally dirty,
emaciated and with wounds that had been improperly treated." By
contrast, the 384 wounded US
solders were described as clean, well-fed with wounds that had been
promptly treated.

Aparently this counted for nothing, and that the reason the USA
soldiers had escaped "in comparison" was the vaccine. Which makes me
very annoyed, because there is another factor they missed out, which
is integral to understanding the japanese-- What was not taken into
account was that to be taken captive was the ultimate in disgrace to
any japanese, and many lost the will to live, and died anyway.
Imagine the shape of the immune system of someone with no hope....

Now you would think too, that ALL the US personnel during WWII who
got tetanus would have been unimmunised, but not so. There were
twelve cases. 6 of them had completed an immunisation schedule, and
one had had one shot. And three of the 6 with a completed schedule,
died. Three of the unvaccinated suvived. The one who had had one
shot, survived. Seems sort of 50/50 to me. (Bull US Army Med Dept,
Vol VII, no 4, April 1947). The British records are even stranger,
with the immunized often having a higher overall case mortality
record than the unimmunsed. In the Lancet, Jan 26, 1946, pg 116
looking at the case Mortality rates, in the "protected" it was 50%,
in the Unprotected it was 46.8%, and in the incomplete or doubtful it
was 42.1%.

The list of side-effects which I have for Tetanus vaccine is huge,
but I won't go into that. What I wanted to reinforce was nutritional
status, and some history, but finally to draw your attention to a
most interesting study. This is found in the Bangladesh medical
Research Council Bulleting, Volume 10, No 1, June 1984.

As I said, a differential diagnosis is Strynchnine poisoning. The
first part was to take two day old chicks divided into fur groups
with 15 birds in each. Group one got 5 nanograms of strychnine
sulphate (SS). Group 2 got SS plus 30 mg of Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)
Group 3 10 nonograms of SS, and group 4 got10 nanos SS and 30 mg
Vitamin C. The results were:

Group one, Wings of all birds stretched, Some walked on toes, others
kept jumping but could not walk.

Group 2 - No symptoms

Group 3, Extensor paralysis of legs, opisthotonus and severe
convulsions,and all but three died.

Group 4, Extensor paralysis in 3 chicks. No neurological symptoms in
others. the affected bird recovered in about 30 minutes after the
appearance of symptoms.

Then they randomly assigned tetanus cases into four groups.

Ages 1-11

No Vitamin C = 72% mortality rate.

Vitamin C 0% mortality rate.

Ages 13 - 30

Vitamin C, 37% mortality

Non Vitamin C 67.8 % mortality rate.

But they made one mistake with this. All patients got 1,000 mg of
Vitamin C. They did not ADJUST UPWARDS the dose of vitamin C for the
bigger body weight. Had they done that, the results might have been
different. They did another study looking at the use of B 6,
pyrodoxine and found that that also reduced both severity an mortality.

Think on that. Tetanus is a toxin-mediated disease, rather like
diphtheria. It is determined by nutritional status, and immune
function more than anything else...

But there is another interesting fact. The body, with a wound, puts
up "road-blocks" to stop the toxin spreading. It is fascinating to
me, that it has long been known that "Wound excision should be
delayed until the antitoxin is given, as free tetanospasmin is
mobilized into the blood-stream during surgical manipulation." In
other words, debridement of wounds breaks open these road-blocks, and
floods the system with poison....

I also found in interesting that in the Am J Dis Child Vol 135, June
1981, Pg 571 it says "the mortality in reported cases of tetanus is
higher in the USA than in developing countries." Perhaps it is
because in the USA the methods of treatment are very invastive,
include debridement, tracheotomy - a whole host of things which just
can't be done in developing countries, not just because of cost, but
also because of infection risk.

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://homeopathycures.wordpress.com/ &
http://vaccinationdangers.wordpress.com/
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases
Next classes start April 28, May 5 & 6

Re: Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 2:41 pm
by Tanya Marquette
I do not seem to have the attachment to Hiliary Butlter's article.
Can you send the link to me. Could not find it on the Mothering.com site either.
tanya

Re: Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 6:34 pm
by Sheri Nakken
Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus
You will see that 'they' (science) don't have the answers, don't have a clue
many poisoning symptoms resemble tetanus
some bug bite symptoms resemble tetanus

Do you get immunity with tetanus - do you even have tetanus?????

There is NO DIAGNOSTIC test for tetanus - they just look at you and
decide because you have a certain set of symptoms that you have tetanus.
Here is a long post from Hilary Butler (many of you know her from
mothering.com board)
She has researched vaccines for MANY MANY years and testifies in
court cases and helps defend parents wrongly accused of harming their
children when it is vaccine damage, and helps in cases to try and
prove vaccine damage
She lives in NZ

See what you glean from this
This is the one vaccine that is the hardest to give up for many
non-vaxers - NOT HARD FOR ME
Sheri
______________________________________________
By email

Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Tetanus is another one of those things which I spent years
researching. I have a long tome which is not in a format to put it
into E, so you will be spared another Sheri post. Instead you will
get a tome of a different kind. No, I would not have the vaccine, and
in making that choice, this is some of the information I would have
thought about. I'm not putting it all, otherwise I'd be here writing,
in a weeks time...

FACTS

The first is that Australia did a study the results of which were
published in the New Zealand Doctor 18, March 1993, pg 23. This was
the first time a study like this had ever been done..., to see what
the antibody levels were in people 10 years after their last booster.
Here is what the medical article said:

quote:

Too many tetanus shots Some people having tetanus boosters already
have antibody levels more than 8,000 times (eight thousand) the
protective level needed, suggesting Australia's regime of a booster
every 10 years is in need of a change. Community physicians say
Australia should adopt the UK regime which advises after five doses,
further boosters are unnecessary.

So the first thing maybe, is go have a titre count done.

But lets look at this titre thing. Way back in the 80's there was a
study done in the Scandinavian J Infect Dis 1983: 15;303 -306, which
looked at soldiers who had been given heaps of tetanus vaccine. Their
antibody levels were way too high as well, and what they discovered
was that "repeated exposure to an antigen, or an overdose of antigen,
will not continually enhance the immune response and may lead to
inhibition or telerance at either T or B cells level.. in addition, a
possible feedback effect stimulated by the high level of toxoid
antibodies may suppress, as Stevens
and Saxon have illustrated, the production of more antibodies at a later date"

Okay? Do you understand the implications of this?

It came out loud and clear in The Journal of Family Practice, 1997,
Vol 44, No 3, pg 299 - 303 when a 29 year old man was admitted with
severe generalised tetanus despite having had a primary series and
two booster injections. And his levels were only 100 times that
considered protective, not 8,000 times as per the Australian study!!!.

Now, if you look at the New Zealand scene, where it was pointed out
in the New Zealand Medical Journal (24th November 1994)that most
people over 35 are unlikely to have had a vaccine, since it was only
inroduced in 1960, then you have to ask yourself why every over-40
year old, isn't dropping
dead with tetanus. In 1987 a serum survey showed that just over 50%
of the 60-65 group had immunity to tetanus. 83% of the 20-29 year
olds, 64% of the 30 -35 year olds. And the stats aren't that much
better today. I understand they are even lower for the USA than for
here. So where did the people with immunity get it from? Many were
not vaccinated...see later...

Now, if you have a look at Tetanus in America, one of the most
interesting articles is a 1969 one from the New England Medical
Journal, Volume 280, Number 11, March 13. And on pages 570 there is a
really interesting decline graph for mortality rates, which shows
that the mortality rate plummetted dramatically from 64/100,000 in
1900to 8/100,000. in 1940. By 1950, with most mothers still
unvaccinated, it was 4.5/100,000.

Not that Tetanus was ever a very common cause of death before hand
anyway, in relation to all the other things that historically could
do you in. Marasmus was a much more common killer of children than
neonatal tetanus ever was... for instance.

They say that it may have been the use of anti-toxin from 1923, but I
know far too much about antitoxin to believe that!!! Antitoxin can
kill all by itself, primarily because it is made in horses, and has
horrendous side-effects in its own right. And some people treated
with anti-tetanus toxoid, will die of the toxoid side-effects, but
that is the risk you take, if you think yu have a chance of dying anyway.....

But the article also recognises that the anti-toxin is not the only
reason, because they cover their bums by also talking about improved
obstetric techniques and neonatal care. And I would have to say wound
care also. But the graph is pretty amazing.

In interesting study in the American Journal of Public Health, August
1984, Vol 74, No 8, showed that in 1,900 adults over 20 years of age,
the overall percentage immunised was 38.6%. Now if, in 1979, in
american, only 38.6% of adults were immunised, what are the factors
which operated then to prevent thousands of adults daily dying from tetanus?

And obviously there are people still around in USA who still have
never been vaccinated. and haven't died yet. But let's look at
something else as well. As to why tetanus has always been a rare
disease in civilian communities in places like America.

The medical profession has always stated that a person does not
acquire natural immunity to tetanus. But the funny thing is that in
1975 in Dakar, in the proceeding of the 4th international symposium
on tetanus, they talked about "latent" natural immunity causing
reactions to primary immunisation. Then there was the study in JAMA
Nov 19, 1982, Volume 248, No 19, in which a large number of the
unvaccianted Amish showed serological evidence of immunity to both
diphtheria and tetanus.

(Incidentally, the same was though about rabies (that there is no
natural immunity), until a recent study showed that in Alaskan
trappers who had never had any vaccine, they too had antibodies. Poof
goes that theory)

Now, New Zealand should be THE prime hot-bed for tetanus. Everywhere
you turn, you fall over horses, etc etc - cows, sheep dogs. opossums,
you name it. And even here, Tetanus occurs sometimes, but not often.
And what has been most interesting to me is in WHOM it occurs.
Recently, I was able to to a bit of poking into the lives of 4
self-confessed tetanus sufferers who were in the stats. And every
single one of them had factors in their lives which pre-disposed them
to tetanus. One had even had a 3 primary 1 booster schedule, and she
ate refined foods, drank, smoked, and did recreation drugs. Well,
hey. What state was her immune system in!!! didn't stand a
chance at doing its job...

The other three ate the usual white flour, white sugar, coke,
biscuits,very little fruit and vegetables.....

One one was what I would call reasonable healthy, but he smoked like
a train - which as I showed him from the med lit, suppresses the
immune system considerably, especially in the airways and gut area...

Now, someone here said tetanus is only a risk with rusty nails /horses etc.

It would be wonderful if that were so, but it isn't.

For a start, 5% of us carry it in our guts, happily replicating. In
fact, at one time, the best way to get tetanus in the medical
literature was to have a hemorrhoid dealt with. Until they got wise
to that one..

Tetanus is ubiquitous in our environment. It is everywhere, on everything.

Where do you think it comes from on the rusty nail? Why do you think
it is that the highest rate of tetanus in vaccinated people is in
homeless drug shooters?

Go get some dust from your mantle-piece tested and it will be there,
10 to the power 6. It is found in bullet wounds, human bite wounds
(!!) on your carrots - you likely eat it every day. There is nowhere
that tetanus is not. In your carpet, on your soil, and often, on your
skin. And if you don't believe me, read the medical literature.

And far from rusty nails being the most common cause of tetanus, that is
not true. Rusty nails account for less that 40% of tetanus. Most tetanus
comes where there is no discernable "portal of entry". It has even been
identified following ear-ache (which left me somewhat gob-smacked --- did
the kid have grommets? and the thing shoved in the ear to "look see",
transfer Tetanus Clostridium? That wasn't even considered...)

Lets look at a bit more history from the medical literature. It has
always been known that war-time historically showed up the highest
rate of tetanus. Far higher than in civilians. Bullet/schrapnel
wounds and all, and the stress of fighting.

Boer war .28 of every thousand wounded got tetanus.
Crimean war 2.0 per 1,000
Am. Civil war 2.0 per thousand
Western front (Flanders horse country WWI average 1.47/thousand
wounded. 2nd world war varied from .06 - .43 per thousand. ( and not
everyone there was vaccinated either. In the paper on the American
Tetanus cases, most who got tetanus had been vaccinated....)

(The difference between the 2nd WW and the first has nothing to do
with the vaccine in my opinion. The second world war was in many
ways, far more hygienically fought. Where were all the mud-filled
trenches, and ghastly living conditions in the second world war,
compared to the first? Those who
know their history will see that right away...)

Now, the question should be, not why did the few actually GET
tetanus, but why didn't the other 998 per thousand wounded get it?
Especially when you realise that it was days, if not weeks, before
those wounded people got any serious attention. When you read about
weeks in stinking ships amongst the wounded from Gallipoli on their
way to hospital in EGYPT as well as the substandard treatment, you
have to wonder why they all didn't die.

The answer lies IMO in the unique susceptibility of the individual.
That a vaccine can confer immunity is not the question that needs to
be answered. The medical profession attributes the decrease in
Tetanus SOLELY to vaccination which is grossly misleading.

I mean, look at your family trees? Did all your great-grandparents
die of tetanus? Nope. Did they never get exposed to it? ACtually,
they had far more wounds likely to have harboured it, than we do today...

A good read of the medical textbooks of the 20's gives some idea as
to one chief reason..... In a study done in 1919-1920 by Dr Harriette
Chick of the lister Institute, and other working in Pirquets clinic
in Vienna, showed that "nearly all children in Central Europe were
more or less rachitic"

Remember Rickets? Remember being lined up with cod-liver oil and
black-strap molasses. (Last year, there was an article which shows
that rickets is rising again in the USA....)

Most older people living now can remember the free milk, cod-liver
oil by the spoon-full. One here has already made derogatory comments
about it.... Even in the rich communities in London in the 30's there
were still over 30% of children with definable nutritional deficiencies...

Now, its interesting in that light, to know that there are studies
which show that when you vaccinate people whose nutritional status is
not good, at least 30% do not respond to the vaccine, even when given
highly concentrated fluid toxoids (Med J Aust, Aug 7, 1976). Again
the work by Chandra shows that their rate of non-conversion to the
vaccine gets higher with the degree of malnutrition, and that
malnourished mothers pass on such low levels of IgG that the babies'
passive immunity is virtually nil.

There is no way around the blinding revelation of the obvious that

1) Bad nutrition is a very serious immune suppressor

2) Immune suppression, or malfunction, is the chief determiner of the
severity of tetanus.

And the work by Chandra et all, shows that obesity causes immune
changes similar to those caused by malnutrition, so nutritional
status is wide-ranging in its implications.

And then there is the hysteria factor which suppresses the immune
system as well, which was amply demonstrated in the USA in Johb
Paul's book "The history of Polio" where at times when the media hype
was bordering on the screaming paranoid, people would be admitted
with what they called
"pseudo-polio"

Talking of hysteria, rember that hysteria is one of the differential
diagnoses of tetanus, as is hypocalcemia, meningitis, rabies, drug
withdrawal, strychnine poisoning, and dystonic drug reaction.

"red streaks" may have nothing to do with tetanus at all. When I was
in USA in 1993, I got a chigger bite, which the chemist treated with
what looked like nail polish, and said it would be just fine. Well,
it wasn't. After 4 days, my legs ached, and I had red streaks up to
the groin. And while my hosts freaked their heads off, I plonked
myself in the bath, took a sterilised 3 inch needle, put a piece of
wood between my teeth, and opened it up in a Y shape. The rotten
chigger, and pus exploded everywhere....

And within three days, the red streaks had completely gone as had all
infection. And since I am fatally allergic to all antibiotics, no, I
didn't use them. I let my body do the job it is designed for, with
judicious help from vitamin quackery.....

Back to history

There is much made of the fact that the Japanese soldiers in WWII had
a lot of tetanus in comparison to the Americans. 14 per hundred....
But when researching this, I was interested to read this "We embarked
284 wounded Japanese soldiers. We found them to be generally dirty,
emaciated and with wounds that had been improperly treated." By
contrast, the 384 wounded US
solders were described as clean, well-fed with wounds that had been
promptly treated.

Aparently this counted for nothing, and that the reason the USA
soldiers had escaped "in comparison" was the vaccine. Which makes me
very annoyed, because there is another factor they missed out, which
is integral to understanding the japanese-- What was not taken into
account was that to be taken captive was the ultimate in disgrace to
any japanese, and many lost the will to live, and died anyway.
Imagine the shape of the immune system of someone with no hope....

Now you would think too, that ALL the US personnel during WWII who
got tetanus would have been unimmunised, but not so. There were
twelve cases. 6 of them had completed an immunisation schedule, and
one had had one shot. And three of the 6 with a completed schedule,
died. Three of the unvaccinated survived. The one who had had one
shot, survived. Seems sort of 50/50 to me. (Bull US Army Med Dept,
Vol VII, no 4, April 1947). The British records are even stranger,
with the immunized often having a higher overall case mortality
record than the unimmunsed. In the Lancet, Jan 26, 1946, pg 116
looking at the case Mortality rates, in the "protected" it was 50%,
in the Unprotected it was 46.8%, and in the incomplete or doubtful it
was 42.1%.

The list of side-effects which I have for Tetanus vaccine is huge,
but I won't go into that. What I wanted to reinforce was nutritional
status, and some history, but finally to draw your attention to a
most interesting study. This is found in the Bangladesh medical
Research Council Bulleting, Volume 10, No 1, June 1984.

As I said, a differential diagnosis is Strynchnine poisoning. The
first part was to take two day old chicks divided into fur groups
with 15 birds in each. Group one got 5 nanograms of strychnine
sulphate (SS). Group 2 got SS plus 30 mg of Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)
Group 3 10 nonograms of SS, and group 4 got10 nanos SS and 30 mg
Vitamin C. The results were:

Group one, Wings of all birds stretched, Some walked on toes, others
kept jumping but could not walk.

Group 2 - No symptoms

Group 3, Extensor paralysis of legs, opisthotonus and severe
convulsions,and all but three died.

Group 4, Extensor paralysis in 3 chicks. No neurological symptoms in
others. the affected bird recovered in about 30 minutes after the
appearance of symptoms.

Then they randomly assigned tetanus cases into four groups.

Ages 1-11

No Vitamin C = 72% mortality rate.

Vitamin C 0% mortality rate.

Ages 13 - 30

Vitamin C, 37% mortality

Non Vitamin C 67.8 % mortality rate.

But they made one mistake with this. All patients got 1,000 mg of
Vitamin C. They did not ADJUST UPWARDS the dose of vitamin C for the
bigger body weight. Had they done that, the results might have been
different. They did another study looking at the use of B 6,
pyrodoxine and found that that also reduced both severity an mortality.

Think on that. Tetanus is a toxin-mediated disease, rather like
diphtheria. It is determined by nutritional status, and immune
function more than anything else...

But there is another interesting fact. The body, with a wound, puts
up "road-blocks" to stop the toxin spreading. It is fascinating to
me, that it has long been known that "Wound excision should be
delayed until the antitoxin is given, as free tetanospasmin is
mobilized into the blood-stream during surgical manipulation." In
other words, debridement of wounds breaks open these road-blocks, and
floods the system with poison....

I also found in interesting that in the Am J Dis Child Vol 135, June
1981, Pg 571 it says "the mortality in reported cases of tetanus is
higher in the USA than in developing countries." Perhaps it is
because in the USA the methods of treatment are very invastive,
include debridement, tracheotomy - a whole host of things which just
can't be done in developing countries, not just because of cost, but
also because of infection risk.

Re: Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 6:36 pm
by Sheri Nakken
thanks John for sharing that...................
This is vitamin C in the form of sodium ascorbate.
So you can see why its also the elderly & drug addicts who die in the US, UK, Australia & elsewhere.
Very depleted.
Sheri
and At 08:03 PM 5/7/2010, you wrote:

Re: Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:49 pm
by John Harvey
Yes, these things all seem to be consistent, don't they.

I should also have mentioned that it's sodium ascorbate in high doses: around a gram or two at a time (doubtless dependent on body mass).

Cheers --

John
--
------------------------------------------------------------------

"Truth would quickly cease to be stranger than fiction, once we got as used to it."

-- H.L. Mencken, A Little Book in C Major.

Re: Tetanus - Hilary Butler on Tetanus

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 10:19 pm
by Lois Hoffer
John Harvey wrote:

Vitamin C in massive doses has been known for a long time to be helpful
in many cases of illness and even poisoning (e.g.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bas ... A9decin%29)...

If you're stuck somewhere and haven't anything else, it's always a good
idea, I think.

Lois