Minutus

Hi Irene,
Do you have any opinion on Royal Canin dry cat foods (which is
what I feed to my cat as staple)? Or do you have a link where I can
find out what *exactly* is in it? (The summary list of ingredients
they give on the package does not help much considering what you write
below).

Perhaps such links will also help others on the list - the reason why
I do not ask by pm.

While my scientific background is not all that bad, I do not think I
would be equal to finding the proper information in the books you
mention below.

@ Gaby

Do you know of any valid information in Germany or vets that are
knowledgeable as far as this aspect goes?

Regards

Luise

as far as that is possible with commercial food

--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Luise, there is plenty of said evidence that cats and dogs - well,
humans, too - thrive on the most biologically appropriate diets. For
carnivores, obligate or by design, this has to be a diet
approximating natural prey - meat, organs, bones, and even hides and
feathers when available. Neither species is at all equipped to handle
vegetable matter and especially grains. I could not disagree more
with Irene's viewpoint on appropriate diets, and find it a shame that
her brilliant mind is stuck at that point.

No manufactured food can come close to providing biologically
accessible nutrients as found in prey animals. Many of the additives
and even the main ingredients in processed foods, canned or kibbled,
are indigestible due to lack of enzymes to handle their compounds,
and are potential allergens leading to such ills as IBD, kidney
disease, skin issues, joint problems, seizures, and cancer, among
others. There is little food value and lots of damage from grains,
vegetables, and cooked and processed proteins of dubious quality. It
makes no difference how fine the grade or high the standards - this
is junk food, and totally unnecessary. Carnivores are by design meant
to thrive on their natural diets. It can't be otherwise. Feed a horse
a steak? No, who would? It's the same idea.

Feeding meat and bone is easy and not as expensive as "premium"
kibble. For more on this, you may join rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com,
where there are over 7000 folks feeding raw for a long period to many
animals. That site can also provide you with many links to the how
and why; one of interest would certainly be www.rawmeatybones.com, by
a veterinary dentist whose campaign against processed foods has been
carrying on for decades.

Best of luck, and best of health to your cats,

ginny
All stunts performed without a net!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Luise Kunkle wrote:

Till recently they had a 38% protein cat food called RC Slim-38, which
was the best food for any sick cat or dog - and pretty good for healthy
ones too.
Sadly they recently took it off the market - and as a result many cats
reverted to being diabetic, etc etc.

The remaining RC foods with enough protein (I consider 34% minimal in a
10% moist food) have bacteria killers that mess with essential feline
gut bacteria - rosemary or alfalfa for example - so I do nto suggest them.
Current top pick - ProPAc kitten dry.
Nothing's perfect out there at this point.
Best source for food ingredients is Petfooddirect.com.
Click on any food selection (and they have a huge array) and they list
all the ingredients.
My cat health list Catwell, has a file section on nutrition where I have
developed a check-list of what's good based on my reading of the
research - and it is discussed in depth on that list, if you are interested.

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

ginny wilken wrote:

Actually natural prey excludes the hides and feathers usually -
especially in the case of cats. Dogs might eat it. However, you left out
the blood - which is a VERY important component, missing in all home
made diets.
Have you noticed how name calling always better befits the person in the
mirror?

Some research facts borne out in practise:
Grains cause less upsetness to carniovore metabolism than fruit and veg,
mostly because their prey usually eats a diet of grains and that is the
natural source for intestinal bacteria to ferment grain into vitamins
which humans get from from fruit and veg.
So grains have a natural place in a carnivore diet, though in the wild
it is a small amount with a lot of bacteria (all from gut contents of
prey) and not as in modern diets, a larger amount with less beneficial
bacteria if any.
Modern commercial diets would be great if they had more protein but
they don't. So something has to fill in for what is not protein or fat.
I like ProPAc kitten dry best because it has 34% carbs and that's a lot
less than most. And I like it also because it has rice and corn as the
grains. (Wheat is irritant to dogs and cats).
Why? Because research shows that cats and dogs can extract more
nutrition (including protein) from those grains than from others. Corn
has the added advantage of having a LITTLE carotene - and rice has the
added advantage of being the most fermentable grain preferred by
carnivore gut bacteria.

If you use veg and fruit as fillers instead, you see a huge increase in
urinary and kidney diseases due to the changed pH which is too high for
a carnivore. (Plant material raises pH; meat, fish and egg lower it.)

So while I would not normally feed a lot of grains - it is better to
feed corn and rice as commercial food filler than to use fruit opr veg -
or to make a home-made diet with a lot of bread (wheat-based).

EXCEPT: Cats and dogs both need carotene - and specific sources work
well. Cooked pumpkin for cats - and add spinach and berries to that for
dogs.

My criteria therefore have more to do with how much good protein (meat,
fish, egg, NOT by-products or soy) is in the food and a LACK of toxins -
- and how much fat from where - than the "filler" which needs to not be
inflamamtory and needs to maintain the carnivore pH below 6, preferably 5.5.

Health of animals shows this approach a good one however fried you think
my brain got doing the research on it

Agreed. Mainly because the blood is missing.
So they have to add what would normally be in the blood.
Few commercial foods are good or come close - but it's worth seeking
them. Most people DO use a commercial food and I like to make a
suggestion that comes as close to what's needed as possible.
The "additives" cover the minerals and vitamins normally eaten in prey
tissues and blood, and replace any lost in processing.
A popular fallacy.
Actually the digestive enzymes are manufactured inside the animal - not
provided by food. The nutrients in food are used to achieve this.
According to what research please?

The dried foods I recommend have no artificial anything, and consist
entirely of food ingredients with Vit E as the preservative for the fat.
There is no available carnivore diet equalling that in nature unless yo
plan to feed live prey
Nor as nutritious.
It has had all the blood drained out and it is old.
It has deteriorated over time. Humans (not cats) can handle that
deterioration as we make out own taurine. Cat's do not.
This whole feline and canine nutrition is a whole science and I doubt
this is the place for a course on it.
There's a lot more to it than tossing meat and bone at a dog.
Raw food is inadvisable unless fresh-slaughtered which it is not here.
You speak of enzymes - in fact the surface of raw meat has bacteria
which make enzymes - and the enzymes made there are deleterious to
feline internal metabolism.
It's less a problem for dogs who are designed for carrion - cats are
not, and need fresh-killed prey. Meat hung for a week or two is not
fresh-killed, nor are the amino acids in beef as good for them as those
in chicken......
Long subject......

Meat and bones is better than the cardboard in *most* commercial foods -
but is by no stretch of imagination an ideal food nor a natural one.
A good commercial food with the right nutrients added is not a bad deal
at all - and is a better starting place to supplement with things like
salmon, sardines, and so on than old meat and bones with none of the
blood ingredients.

NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Luise,
concerning cat food: that's nearly as controversial as politics!

BARF or NO-BARF ...different answers for cats and for dogs....(and of
course there is always the individual factor).

I like Lisa's website, she's a vet, quite knowledgeable, has cats:

Lisa Pierson, http://www.catinfo.org/

Of course there might be many others.

Here in Germany one of THE sources for good information concerning pet
food is the Vet University in Munich, Nutritional department, head is
Fr. Prof. Ellen Kienzle.
http://www.vetmed.uni-muenchen.de/tiph_t/home.html
They also offer diet consultations via telephone.

Dr. Claudia Thielen and Dr. Britta Dobenecker did studies, wrote books,
developped software concerning dog/cat nutrition.
Dobenecker, Britta; Thielen, Claudia: Was Deiner Katze schmeckt

Software info:
http://www.vetmed.de/vet/download/thielen/puppy.htm

Hope that helps,

Gaby

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gaby Rottler
Germany
rottler@curantur.de
http://www.curantur.de
***Scriptum homoeopathicum***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not a "made" diet at all; it is pieces or whole animals, and
yes, occasionally freshly killed.

I stand by what I said; you have been misinformed by the data you
have chosen.

This might be true except for a couple of facts: in all but the
smallest of prey, both wolves and large cats dissect and discard
stomach contents. See the work of David Mech on wolves. No wild prey
eats grains in quantity, because they do not exist in the wild. So
any conclusion drawn about grains in stomachs having accustomed
carnivores to eating them is bogus; an evolutionary diet would not
have offered stomachs full of grain.
A prey-model diet is about 18% protein. The rest is fat and water.
Dogs and cats have no native enzymes with which to break down
cellulose. This makes digesting grains, as well as vegetables, fairly
impossible. What goes through, ferments, not digests. Fermenting
fosters yeasts, depresses good gut bacteria, and sets the animal up
for leaky gut and other digestive disorders, as well as the whole
gamut of migrating yeast disorders such as arthritis and skin and ear
conditions. Filler is not part of an authentic carnivore diet, and is
not necessary in a short intestinal tract such as typifies
carnivores. There's a reason cows have four stomachs - and even they
become ill when fed grains.
Cats and dogs do not convert carotene efficiently into Vit A. There's
no need, when it is abundant in usable form in most organs and
principally liver. The best way to get any nutrient into a carnivore
is to feed it to a prey animal, and let them eat it. You can't say
there's a need for something if it is not present in the evolutionary
diet; that's really bad science.

Precisely. And no cooked protein is a good protein; cooking renders
them difficult to digest and stops any enzyme activity in the food
itself. It kind of ruins the blood in the meat, too.

There is more blood in any supermarket meat than in kibble. The
biggest difference is in cooked vs. raw. There is no comparison
possible, and even if inferior commercially produced meat is fed, the
animal will thrive far beyond kibble. My research on this, and other
aspects, is, among other sources, the aforementioned group of over
7000 owners and many more dogs and cats. They feed everything from
Arkansas chicken to freshly-killed cows and venison, and there is no
way science is going to duplicate the nutrients and proportions
thereof, and to supply biological activity equal to raw. Yes, fresh-
killed is best, but not by that much compared to the formulated food
you describe.
Yep. See above. Cats and dogs do not, manufacture enzymes to break
down plant products. Nor do they need them when properly fed.

My research, again, comes from observing nature. There is plenty out
there on plant lectins, foreign proteins, unassailable compounds,
leaky gut, Crohn's disease, celiac disease. rheumatoid arthritis,
etc. It takes not much common sense, again, to throw away the
scientific concoctions in favor of NOT feeding that horse a steak.

They are the wrong ingredients for the species in question.
Taurine is abundant in raw meat, especially organs. That's why cats
need taurine - because they can get it, when man doesn't screw it up
for them.
Dogs and cats, when their digestion is unimpaired, have strong
stomach acids that handle these sorts of bacteria easily. They eat
road kill. They bury their food. They eat each others' poop.
Salmonella and the Coli are no problem for them, unless they have
been impaired and their enzyme and acid production stifled by a gut
full of fermenting garbage.
Nobody told them. And if cats need fresh prey, how insulting is it to
feed them some cooked concoction?

We stand in disagreement, and I will pursue it no further. There is
no place in what is essentially a wild animal's diet for the
inventions of scientists, motivated in their research by profit. By
the way, I completely believe - and live in that belief - in the same
notion for humans. We cannot eat what was available on the African
savannah, but we can eat real, raw, natural, pre-agricultural plants
and animals insofar as is possible. If we choose not to, we suffer, I
guarantee you that.

ginny

All stunts performed without a net!
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Gaby Rottler wrote:

I agree with much of what she says - such as that cats need animal
protein - but she also has many misconceptions repeated there.
For example she says:
"The protein in dry food, which is often heavily plant-based, is not
equal in quality to the protein in canned food, which is meat-based."

It's simply not true. I can show you canned food with zero meat, and dry
food based on good meat, fish and egg.
One simply has to read and understand the ingredients label to know
what's what. The ingredients arwe what matter - not whether it is dry or
canned - except that canned food ALWAYS contains goo such as carrageenan
or guar gum.
The goo coats intestines and prevents absorption of nutrients. Canned is
gooey also, and sticks to teeth causing gingivitis. Cats do not line up
to get their teeth brushed:-) Stomatitis and worse follows....
Vets make money from this - "dentals", drugs, consults, etc - and the
cat suffers.
Feed a good dry food and there's no problem like that.

Another fallacy:
"Cats Need Plenty of Water With Their Food"
Not true. Cats are designed for the desert, being descendants of Felis
lybica, and they are designed to manage on very little water - their
kidneys concentrate very well. In fact cats drink water but prefer it
NOT to be anywhere near the food bowl. That would not be natural. Also
their thirst works just fine and is not a poor reflex as stated. The
fallacy occurred because people were feeding dry food once or twice a
day only instead of 24/7 as cats need it.
In that case the cat is in ketosis by mal tiem and gobbles its food -
leaving insufficient space in the stomach for water to hydrated it - and
so it will need to vomit out some of it to make room - which it will do.
Correctly fed, this is not an issue. Cats nibble protein all day in the
wild and dry food also needs to be free-fed. Cats will then eat and
drink as needed.
It matters how the water tastes however. Cats have a LOT of water
taste buds

The grain discussion is also out of date. Wheat Oats and barley are not
suited to cats, but yeast is a good food and corn is one of the better
grains - with rice. Her suggestion is Wellness brand - it contains
Beef - when did you see your kitty chasing down a cow?
Sweet Potatoes, Carrots - serious FLUTD problems loom here due to pH.
Vegetable Gums - cause goo in intestines to block absorption
Flax Seed - inflammatory omega-6 and omega-3. (Should be fish oil),
Alfalfa - seriously toxic to cats - causes vomiting, low birth weight,
abortions, etc etc.
Cranberries, Blueberries, Yellow Squash, Yellow Zucchini, - all cause
high urinary pH and predispose urinary problems in cats, and are
irritant as cats can not digest them, they lack amylase. [Grains are
digested by the cat's gut bacteria who convert it to nutrients like
acetate, butyrate and propionate - vegetables are not useful to cats.]
Garlic - causes Hainz body anemia and predisposes disease as a result.
Spirulina - causes low pH urine
The FOIOD LACKS:
Any source of food for beneficial gut bacteria such as rice bran or beet
fiber.
Any source of anti-inflamamtory fatty acids.
Any source of fat - it only contains 6%, and fat is the main source of
energy for cats. This is VERY out of proportion with the 78% protein.

Anyone who thinks this is good food knows VERY little about feline
nutrition.
I could go on but this should suffice.

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

ginny wilken wrote:

It's a common mistake to use information on large cats for domestic cats.
Domestic cats have a "Jacobsen's organ" specifically because carrion is
not safe for them and they use this organ to detect the slightest
beginnings of putrefactive activity on the surface of meat.
This is why you kitty may turn down food you know you'd personally
consider fresh, and your dog considers fresh
Domestic cats are not designed to handle it.
But they do eat gut contents. It's essential to their metabolism, to
ensure their gut has the bacteria and the food for those bacteria from
fermetable fiber. It's a large part of their nutritional system and
provides for cats what humans get from veg/fruit.
Does not apply.
Agreed.(See my previous emails)
But fermentable grains ARE essential to feline and canine gut health -
read the research - or I can send you a summary article if you like off
list? In the wild it's from gut contents.
According to?
Even the insects like grasshoppers that cats eat as snacks in the wild
all day between main meals, are 55 to 65% protein - and mice are 65%
protein by dry matter.

The rest is fat and water.

...which is why they should not be fed fruit and vegetables in their food.
On the contrary.
The grains are fed ground up - not inside cellulose walls, and the
research confirms they can utilize them - it's why they do not get FLUTd
on grain but they do get it on fruit and veg (as "filler" after the
protein and fat has been satisfied).
On the contrary, your microbiology is not correct here.
Fermentation is the term for the action of beneficial bacteria on the
food you provide for those bacteria. The gut bacteira ferment *fiber*
such as rice bran or beet fiber - and manufacture para-amino-benzoic
acid, folic acid, other B vits and especially butyrate as a metabolic
fuel for colonocytes and it regulatory activity on cell proliferation
(without which do expect ulcerative colitis etc), also acetate fopr
peripheral tissue health and propionate for liver health.
Failing to supply the FOOD these bacteria need to ferment into
cat-food, causes overgrowth of neoplastic colonocytes, intestinal ill
health, and overall ill health - and overgrowth of unwanted flora such
as E coli, and clostridia spp.
You could not be more wrong - do read the research. It is voluminous and
significant. I'll send my article as a starting place if you are really
interested.
That is true. Instead they use the carotene directly for various immune
system functions and if you provide only Vit A then they will have
immune system problems due to the lack of carotene. Cats need 12 times
as much as dogs:-)
It's all present in the wild diet.
Protein is not affected by cooking. Perhaps you are thinking of vitamins
that are heat-labile.
Lightly cooked (so it is cooked at least on the surface) meat is
appropriate, as is cooked fish.
Not true. Raw is fractionally easier to digest but unless you plan to
serve it as charcoal, it will be good food.
...which is a good thing as the only enzyme activity with meat, is the
bacteria busy rotting it on the meat surface, and which are a negative
influence when swallowed by a cat.
Nope - blood is protein - it is still protein when cooked.
Only when fresh-killed.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Our cats and dog love raw eggs (esp. the yolks), and also (when we had
it) fresh, raw milk. Funnily, tho, even the chickens really thrived on
the (raw) milk! Which surprised me.
Shannon

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Stomach, but not intestines--as I've understood it?
Shannon
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