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Minutus • Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case
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Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:38 am
by Shannon Nelson
I'm curious about the fever issue. I was taught that fevers are almost
never harmful (exceptions would be: heat stroke; certain types of
brain injury [which in some cases could result from the disease itself,
so I would never make light of watching and perhaps regulating the temp
in a *severe* febrile disease]; extremely severe disease, where the
body is close to being overwhelmed; and/or patient especially weak or
depleted already. My clinical experience is not broad (more than ten
years, but only perhaps a couple dozen individual "patients"), so I do
not want to give much weight to my own experience with this, but thus
far the only situations where I have felt any need of bringing down a
fever, is when that would help the person (in each case so far it's
been a child) to sleep, so that the parents (usually myself!) can sleep
too, and have a clearer head to proceed more appropriately in the
morning.

I've never really seen much value in even *knowing* the temperature
(unless it were one of the exceptional situations above), because...
Well, for instance, when my older child was little, she got sick a
*lot*, and several times very severely, but I don't think she *ever*
threw much of a fever, just because she wasn't "vital" enough. So the
signs that would make me worry--and call our homeopath pronto--were
signs such as listless, not eating/drinking, pallor, etc.
down, it would be violent onset, *high* fever (we clocked 104 F on
one), and would crawl into a corner and sleep--then wake up half a day
later, all better and ready to play. I constantly fussed over the
first child--despite lack of much or any fever--but never did much of
anything for the second, simply because all he clearly *needed* was
just to be left alone to recover, high fever and all. With that mama's
"intuition" :-) or something, I always found it very easy to tell
the difference between a sound and healing sleep (fever and all),
versus otherwise.

I was taught--and have since read in various places--about the
tremendous *healing* effects of fever; how it creates a less-friendly
environment for pathogens, and at the same time activates some of the
body's "reserve troops" for defense. For myself, when I'm down with
something, most of the time the very best thing I can do to kick it, is
a long, hot soak, and "sweat it out". Basically, creating an
"artificial fever", and wow does it work for me! (And of course a
time-honored "folk remedy".) I remember reading somewhere a study
showing that use of Tylenol (which in this case would have been used as
a febrifuge) in chickenpox was found to *prolong* the illness by a few
days--anyone else read that?

So, I am curious! Would you (Hahnemannian, and also anyone) consider
it useful to bring down a fever only under certain circumstances
(similar or different to those I listed above), or do you not find
fevers to be useful to recovery? And, why use a drug rather than, say,
gently sponging the wrists...

As far as a high fever "consuming" the remedy, well, then why not just
give it higher and more often... I would assume that the healing would
be more thorough that way, but perhaps I'm wrong? Or perhaps my
complacency will be humbled once I've treated more *truly* sick
people...
Thanks for the thoughts,
Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:17 am
by muthu kumar
There are different opinions and approaches to this Shannon and I am
not saying that his approach is right or wrong... just that there is a
n opinion that even such symptomatic treatment is considered OK in
circumstances...

I have never said no to Tylenol personally to my patients but in
general there is no doubt that it throws off prescribing picture - you
do not get good modalities etc. including time modalities and fever
treatment for me is so close to time modalities...at the same time if
we look carefully enough there are subtle prescribing symptoms even if
the patient has been drugged thru and thru- for example where in one
case with already tons of antibiotics with no response after 2 weeks -
a case of PID- I gave Phos 1m 2 doses to have the patient become
normal within 2 days- prescribed because the patient remarked "when I
lie down on this pillow it seems that I am lying too low for my head"-
( sensation as if he had been lying with head too low).

Once you got the prescribing picture I am pretty much ok with whatever
is done even if you need Tylenol- the least restrictions the best- you
just end up having patients lying to you otherwise, if you are too
restrictive and strict-mostly I have had no problems-

I am not concerned if fever is wonderful or not- it is part of the
problem that the patient brought- there are instances where the body's
solution ( fever) becomes part of the problem- like in so many others-
such as hypersensitivity and asthma, obesity, autoimmune diseases-

for us anything and everything becomes grist for the
simillimum-finding mill -
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
administers the
does
there is

Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:03 pm
by VR VR
the interesting thing for me is that I find when I tell patients to use the remedy but if the fever doesn't go down take paracetomol, it gives them more confidence in the remedy as they know they have a fall-back if needed. I tend to do the same thing with prescription drugs - I tell them to buy what was prescribed as a fall-back if the remedies don't help. Especially with patients new to homeopathy it's something that seems to help them, and in most cases they don't use the conventional meds at all, just feel more confident knowing they're on hand that that they aren't "forbidden" (although not recommended...)
I also don't prohibit many things because I don't want patients to start lying (as H says) about how much coffee they drank or whether they used mint toothpaste etc. There are some patients who don't like that leniency, they want you to "police" them, so they don't necessarily stick around. Also sometimes I'll ask patients to stop coffee on the days they take the remedy - and then they report that since they stopped for a day or two, they decided to stop altogether!
Vera

hahnemannian2002 wrote:
There are different opinions and approaches to this Shannon and I am
not saying that his approach is right or wrong... just that there is a
n opinion that even such symptomatic treatment is considered OK in
circumstances...

I have never said no to Tylenol personally to my patients but in
general there is no doubt that it throws off prescribing picture - you
do not get good modalities etc. including time modalities and fever
treatment for me is so close to time modalities...at the same time if
we look carefully enough there are subtle prescribing symptoms even if
the patient has been drugged thru and thru- for example where in one
case with already tons of antibiotics with no response after 2 weeks -
a case of PID- I gave Phos 1m 2 doses to have the patient become
normal within 2 days- prescribed because the patient remarked "when I
lie down on this pillow it seems that I am lying too low for my head"-
( sensation as if he had been lying with head too low).

Once you got the prescribing picture I am pretty much ok with whatever
is done even if you need Tylenol- the least restrictions the best- you
just end up having patients lying to you otherwise, if you are too
restrictive and strict-mostly I have had no problems-

I am not concerned if fever is wonderful or not- it is part of the
problem that the patient brought- there are instances where the body's
solution ( fever) becomes part of the problem- like in so many others-
such as hypersensitivity and asthma, obesity, autoimmune diseases-

for us anything and everything becomes grist for the
simillimum-finding mill -

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
administers the
does
there is

---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:10 pm
by muthu kumar
Even here the approach is individual-
as you say there are patients who want to be policed... esp. in India
where there is much more acceptance of the doctor as a very high
authority figure... also the traditional medical systems of India
impose a lot of diet restrictions and people who are culturally
prepared for this actually feel disappointed if you do not suggest
some diet and behavior restrictions. For them I give some simple
restrictions- It is more to get their buy-in.

The reason for continuing the allopathic medications is - when
patients themselves stop the medicine because they feel they do not
need it - that is another indication for me that the indicated remedy
is working. This is esp. true for prescriptions for chronic conditions
and pain conditions. Apart from the actual need for these, patients
usually develop dependence for these. The indicated remedy should make
the patients independent and give them enough freedom to move out of
the medicines.When they become so, they give up the allopathic drug on
their own. I have seen this happen many times.

This is the same case with their relationship with the physician, If
they still come to you regularly and never fail to follow instructions
, they are still dependent on you. When they still have a lot of
respect for you - sometimes you can feel that they want to impress you
or make you happy- they are still dependent. When they are truly cured
they deal with you not on the patient-doctor relationship axis but as
an equal. That is the time I feel that they are truly on the path to
freedom. Of course this is the case with Indian patients and based on
culture there may be differences. When you feel that they are not
being grateful ( after being so for many months) that is the time that
you might have given them the simillimum....
-- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, VR VR wrote:
use the remedy but if the fever doesn't go down take paracetomol, it
gives them more confidence in the remedy as they know they have a
fall-back if needed. I tend to do the same thing with prescription
drugs - I tell them to buy what was prescribed as a fall-back if the
remedies don't help. Especially with patients new to homeopathy it's
something that seems to help them, and in most cases they don't use
the conventional meds at all, just feel more confident knowing they're
on hand that that they aren't "forbidden" (although not recommended...)
start lying (as H says) about how much coffee they drank or whether
they used mint toothpaste etc. There are some patients who don't like
that leniency, they want you to "police" them, so they don't
necessarily stick around. Also sometimes I'll ask patients to stop
coffee on the days they take the remedy - and then they report that
since they stopped for a day or two, they decided to stop altogether!
Shannon and I am
almost
itself,
temp
I do
sleep
day
mama's
it, is
used as
few
say,
just
would
is not
want
done faster.

Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:06 am
by Sarvadaman Oberoi
Researched the subject of high fever and raised blood pressure in combating
disease in the homeopathic literature.

Results of research are:

For optimum cure blood pressure may rise about 10 percent of the persons
normal BP in case of adults except those suffering from chronic hypertension
and temperature should not rise beyond 102.2 deg F.

For children there may be slightly elevated BP and temperature should not
rise beyond 101.3 deg F.

If temperature rises beyond optimum use cold compresses - if not
controllable allopathic means may have to be resorted to as an emergency
measure until falls below this level.

If BP crosses 10 percent range might use Digitalis 6C every 5 minutes till
controlled ( Digitalis not to be used if contra- indications exist) - Cactus
6C - if not controllable allopathic means may have to be resorted to as an
emergency measure until falls below this level.

Regards.

Sarvadaman Oberoi
New Delhi, India
Mobile: +919818768349
+911244076374
Website: http://www.freewebs.com/homeopathy249/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:09 am
by Sheri Nakken
At 11:36 AM 10/8/2006 +0530, you wrote:

101.3 Farenheit? That is NOTHING for a temperature.
COLD compresses should NEVER be used. NOTHING should be used that would
bring the fever down fast. This is often what causes a febrile seizure.
And 10% percent increase in Blood Pressure is nothing.

Where did you find this?

It is not helpful
Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
Well Within & Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours (worldwide)
Vaccination Information & Choice Network
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm
homeopathycures@tesco.net
ONLINE Introduction to Homeopathy Classes
ONLINE Introduction to Vaccine Dangers Classes
Voicemail US 530-740-0561 UK phone from US 011-44-1874-624-936

Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:56 am
by VR VR
Sometimes the lack of gratitude is part of the cure! They forget they were feeling sick or uncomfortable, say the remedy didn't do much anyway when it's clear it did a tremendous amount, and you don't hear from them again (but they do refer their friends). Hahnemann refers to patients who when ill are very pleasant and easy going, but can become unpleasant when well. I've noticed that patients needing Sepia often seem to do this - they often say the remedy hasn't helped, only people seem nicer these days...!
Vera

hahnemannian2002 wrote:
Even here the approach is individual-as you say there are patients who want to be policed... esp. in India
where there is much more acceptance of the doctor as a very high
authority figure... also the traditional medical systems of India
impose a lot of diet restrictions and people who are culturally
prepared for this actually feel disappointed if you do not suggest
some diet and behavior restrictions. For them I give some simple
restrictions- It is more to get their buy-in.

The reason for continuing the allopathic medications is - when
patients themselves stop the medicine because they feel they do not
need it - that is another indication for me that the indicated remedy
is working. This is esp. true for prescriptions for chronic conditions
and pain conditions. Apart from the actual need for these, patients
usually develop dependence for these. The indicated remedy should make
the patients independent and give them enough freedom to move out of
the medicines.When they become so, they give up the allopathic drug on
their own. I have seen this happen many times.

This is the same case with their relationship with the physician, If
they still come to you regularly and never fail to follow instructions
, they are still dependent on you. When they still have a lot of
respect for you - sometimes you can feel that they want to impress you
or make you happy- they are still dependent. When they are truly cured
they deal with you not on the patient-doctor relationship axis but as
an equal. That is the time I feel that they are truly on the path to
freedom. Of course this is the case with Indian patients and based on
culture there may be differences. When you feel that they are not
being grateful ( after being so for many months) that is the time that
you might have given them the simillimum....

-- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, VR VR wrote:
use the remedy but if the fever doesn't go down take paracetomol, it
gives them more confidence in the remedy as they know they have a
fall-back if needed. I tend to do the same thing with prescription
drugs - I tell them to buy what was prescribed as a fall-back if the
remedies don't help. Especially with patients new to homeopathy it's
something that seems to help them, and in most cases they don't use
the conventional meds at all, just feel more confident knowing they're
on hand that that they aren't "forbidden" (although not recommended...)
start lying (as H says) about how much coffee they drank or whether
they used mint toothpaste etc. There are some patients who don't like
that leniency, they want you to "police" them, so they don't
necessarily stick around. Also sometimes I'll ask patients to stop
coffee on the days they take the remedy - and then they report that
since they stopped for a day or two, they decided to stop altogether!
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Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:07 pm
by Sarvadaman Oberoi
Dear Sheri,

My experience with blood pressure has been that the most intractable of
cases are controllable with Digitalis 6c repeated every 5 minutes for 1 to 2
hours. Use of allopathic medication largely does not antidote the Digitalis
6C. When I say 10 percent it is only for optimum homeopathic cure - the
variation in BP under stress is as much as from, say 130/90 to 180/115 ie 40
percent but this is required to be controlled.

See Bouko-Levy "Fever" for 101.3 F etc.

Regards.

Sarvadaman Oberoi
New Delhi, India
Mobile: +919818768349
+911244076374
Website: http://www.freewebs.com/homeopathy249/

On 10/8/06, Sheri Nakken wrote

*EXTRACT*

* **BOUKO-LEVY Michel, Homeopathic and Drainage Repertory (bkl1)* **
**
*Blood pressure*
Blood pressure rates follow natural variations.
However, they can increase with the ageing of the vessel walls which is
directly related to a luetic process.
The hereditary factors of the patient will give the practitioner an idea
of how much the proper homeopathic treatment will improve the patient's
ability to adapt.
The *cardio-vascular emunctory* is the *last one to act*, after the *skin,
digestive, respiratory, urinary, *and* osteoarticular *system, in the
*detoxification
process*.
A complete cardiovascular check-up should be done regularly on the patient.
This is a typical example of how allopathic medicine and homeopathic
remedies can be complementary in severe cases.
*Low blood pressure *

* *
*Usual treatment *

* *
* -- excited :*
• morning:
20 to 40 drops : SYMPATHETIC NERVE / DIENCEPHALON / a.a. p. 4C
• noon :
one dose : MANGANESE TRACE ELEMENT
• evening :
20 to 40 drops : CORTICOHYPOTHALAMIC AXIS / PARASYMPATHETIC NERVE / a.a. p.
4C
*-- depressed :*
• morning, 3 granules :
KALIUM PHOSPHORICUM / VISCUM ALBUM / a.a. p. 7C
• noon, one dose : MANGANESE COPPER TRACE ELEMENT
• every week, one dose : PICRIC ACID 15C
*Hypotensive attacks *

* *
-- *in the case of shock related to medicinal poisoning : *

* *
• 3 granules, as needed : CAMPHORA 4C
-- *with irregular pulse :*
• 20 drops, as needed : CRATAEGUS / DIGITALIS / a.a. p. 3X
-- *body coldness; slow pulse; severe heart disease; infections;
depression; anxiety : *

* *
• 3 granules, as needed : NAJA 4C
*High blood pressure*
Most patients need allopathic medications in combination with homeopathic
treatment.
With the combination of these two therapeutic modes, patients have the best
chance of avoiding the terrible acute and chronic complications of this
disease.
-- *every day, for nervous regulation :*
• morning, one dose : MANGANESE COBALT TRACE ELEMENT
• noon, 3 granules : IGNATIA 9C
• evening, 20 to 40 drops : PASSIFLORA / VALERINA / a.a. p. 3X
-- *every week, one dose : *

* *
• oversensitive :
1st NUX VOMICA 9C
2nd AMBRA GRISEA 9C
3rd LACHESIS 9C
4th GELSEMIUM 9C
• arteriosclerosis :
1st AURUM METAL 9C
2nd PLUMBUM IODATUM 9C
3rd PHOSPHORUS 9C
4th BARYTA CARBONICA 9C
-- *in case of obesity, add : *

* *
• one dose, every month : SULFUR FLAVUM 9C
-- *in case of hypertensive attack : *

* *
• one dose, as needed : ACONITUM 15C
• 3 granules, as needed : GELSEMIUM 5C
*See :* ageing, arteritis, arteriosclerosis, brain softening, depression,
edema, emotional, faintness, fatigue, fears, heart, nervousness, since,
trauma.
*Fever*
Fever is a body's natural reaction to a challenge from a pathogen and
provides a good acute symptom for the homeopath.
Its progression must not be impeded, except when it rises over 38.5° C (
101.3° F) in the child and 39° C (102.2° F) in the adult.
It is surprising to see that some people never have much of a fever, and
others have a fever that rises up to 40° C (104° F) very quickly.
The behavior of the patient is made up of a multitude of general and mental
symptoms and fever is one of the essential general symptoms.
*With thirst *

* *

*Large quantities*
-- *unquenchable, red, hot, dry face, agg. before midnight; anxiety, thinks
they are going to die suddenly : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : ACONITUM 5C
-- *no thirst alternates with intense thirst; burning, pungent, and
steaming head :*
• 3 granules, as needed : BELLADONNA 5C
-- *extreme dryness; doesn't move except to drink at long intervals :*
• 3 granules, as needed : BRYONIA 5C
-- *all symptoms agg. at night; intense thirst; profuse sweating; burning
pains :*
• 3 granules, as needed : MERCURIUS SOLUBILIS 5C
-- *burning sensations; inflammation of the lung, liver, pancreas, or
kidney : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : PHOSPHORUS 5C
-- *intense thirst at night; coated tongue; intestinal influenza : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : ANTIMONIUM CRUDUM 5C
-- *ice water; cold sweat, faintness; severe acute diarrhea : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : VERATRUM ALBUM 5C
*Small quantities*
-- *or large; often; warm drinks that they sips; severe lack of energy : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : ARSENICUM ALBUM 5C
-- *bitter taste; intermittent fever, debilitating night sweats; periodical
headache :*
• 3 granules, as needed : CHINA 5C
-- *desires ice cold milk at night; soreness obliges him to move all the
time: *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : RHUS TOX 5C
*Without thirst*
*-- insufficient urination; sweat breaks out or dries up frequently,
meningeal reaction : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : APIS 5C
-- *much shaking; prolonged exhausting sweat; headache with sleepiness; no
reaction : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : GELSEMIUM 5C
-- *chilliness; external heat is intolerable; congested hot veins : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : PULSATILLA 5C
*With sweat *

* *

*Prostrated*
-- *exhausting night sweat; paleness alternates with localized redness :*
• 3 granules, as needed : FERRUM PHOSPHORICUM 5C
-- *cold sweat; no thirst; nausea; intolerant to heat :*
• 3 granules, as needed : IPECA 5C
-- *high severe fever; thirst; dry red tongue; hemorrhage : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : LACHESIS 5C
*Restlessness alternates with prostration*
• BELLADONNA 5C, or PHOSPHORUS 5C
*Without sweat*
* Prostration*
-- *red hot face; nose and extremities cold; refuses to be touched; aching
: *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : ARNICA 5C
-- *high fever; dry brownish tongue; severe infections (scarlet fever) : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : AILANTHUS GLANDULOSA 5C
-- *dry lips; raw sore nose, tongue, throat, and trachea; chest burning
during cough : *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : ARUM TRIPHYLLUM 5C
-- *great muscular soreness and putrid eliminations; feeling of suffocation
: *

* *

• 3 granules, as needed : BAPTISIA 4C
*Restless, fearful*
• ACONITUM 5C, or STRAMONIUM 5C
*See :* abscess, anxiety, aversion, cold, desire, face, faintness, fears,
heat, infections, nervousness, pains, sweat, thirst, tongue, vomiting, wind.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:08 pm
by Sheri Nakken
I have not seen a need to stop a fever unless someone is so ill and on
death bed or close
Some even use like cures like and enchance the fever - like you say- sweat
it out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
Well Within & Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours (worldwide)
Vaccination Information & Choice Network
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm
homeopathycures@tesco.net
ONLINE Introduction to Homeopathy Classes
ONLINE Introduction to Vaccine Dangers Classes
Voicemail US 530-740-0561 UK phone from US 011-44-1874-624-936

Re: Fevers [was: Interesting not-so-acute case

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:09 pm
by Sheri Nakken
I don't assume my patients lie to me
Once you teach patients the reasoning and why, I have found them to work
with me.

There is never a need for Tylenol in my experience.
First do no harm
I disagree.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
Well Within & Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours (worldwide)
Vaccination Information & Choice Network
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm
homeopathycures@tesco.net
ONLINE Introduction to Homeopathy Classes
ONLINE Introduction to Vaccine Dangers Classes
Voicemail US 530-740-0561 UK phone from US 011-44-1874-624-936