Minutus

Thinking about a friend's experience, taking a 200c of a remedy (thuja)
which initially acted well, but about a month along she went into a
very distressing emotional state. At the time I took this as
indicating a new remedy, but that wound up taking us off on a wild
goose chase. I wish that instead I had tried using the same remedy in
a low potency, or just try to support her and see if it would work its
way thru.
dosing be less apt to give such an intense upheaval/or (and could
repeating water dose in the same potency help to smooth it)?

Also:
I also am thinking of another "patient" who I *expect* will likely have
some upheavals from whatever turns out to be his "right
remedy"--because he is so tightly wound, so "repressed", on edge, and
really aching to break out of it. For his wife's sake I would love to
use a gradual process if possible--but I wonder if there aren't some
situations where you *do* just have to "bite the bullet" and let it all
hit the fan. Is this just my "high potency upbringing"? Any thoughts?

With this person, I started him with a 30c of cuprum (which looks like
a very good mental and physical match, but we'll see), which brought
about an apparent aggravation of his chronic cough, but also
improvements (slight, but promising) on the emotional. He was
distressed by the coughing (said people at work were complaining!), so
I gave him a water dose of 200c. That initially helped the cough, but
a few days later he got a migraine and he *said* the cough had worsened
again, tho his wife says she really doesn't hear much coughing at
home--possibly worse at work, because it's been << by emotions? Or
possibly it's just his (very apparent) level of "despair" showing up?

There are some promising signs--he's started to do little bits of
chatting with her, whereas previously he would / could not. So we are
sitting tight for now, but I am not sure what I should tell them if the
cough doesn't improve (enough) or if things stall.

If water doses are repeated too often, I assume there is the same risk
of aggravation or proving? And if they are underrepeated, would that
mean that progress is simply slooowwweed, or will it mean that progress
stops until the dose is repeated? I don't yet have a "feel" for how
water doses work, compared with dry, and how to interpret what I am
seeing.

All thoughts appreciated!
Shannon

When the good work of a rx is changed in any way you have to stand back
and identify what has happened to change this so drastically - why
would this happen etc. It can be a temporary state excited by the
remedy reaction or outside forces that come and go and not addressed by
the rx (if inappropriate to health this might need to be prescribed for
or, as you say, help her through it without disturbing the first remedy
that hopefully will continue to good work after this interim state
passes).

Do you mean now that you have to go back to the original rx and that
other prescribed rx have 'wiped' out the first work of the first rx?
and have you identified what caused this intense upheaval. Can't answer
your question unless that is known.

When you take a case you are also taking into consideration all
possible needs for managing that case but to be honest, if the
simillimum is given with simillimum potency and dose (minimum dose as
well) then recovery should be gentle - out pouring should come in the
form of quick acutes, eruptions, etc and that just because someone is
really wound up doesn't mean the healing should follow suit.

Be careful how you approach repetition, you don't have to give
something just because of an > then you must wait.
Some sx, such as skin eruptions, can take ages to resolve and likewise
with a cough if it is a cough that is being determined by emotional
aspects.

Sometimes, depends on the case. Some cases need it, some practitioners
such as Dr Ramakrishnan, says it is essential. Individualisation is the
key.
Too theoretical - address the client in front of you, give as needed,
stop when it isn't needed.

Best wishes, Joy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Joy,
Below:
I tried!
It seems to have been that, because:
Nothing she was aware of. She viewed it as being so strong and so
inexplicable--no change in circumstances--that it seemed to be just
something tossed out by the remedy. m
No, there's no "original remedy". It's a case I've been pretty much
just chasing 'round for quite some time (off-and-on, long intervals,
first by others and then by me). Various remedies have helped at
various times, but it's been an appearance as tho the underlying
weakness or imbalance is not being affected much, just managing to
re-balance the occasional *results* of the underlying imbalance. (E.g.
depressed because she's not able to do this and that; a remedy helps
the depression, but she's still not able to do this and that. Etc.)
Sometimes things have gone well, even for months at a time, but nothing
I've given thus far seems to have made a deep change, so I'm trying to
look again for clues I might have missed, including past remedies that
were maybe not fully "tested".
She says there had been no change in circumstance, no events, to
explain it. They'd moved at least two years previous so might have
been a contributing factor, but doesn't seem like it could have been a
cause?

I tried to see whether she could relate the emotional state to any
clear past events, could it be a "return of old symptoms", and didn't
get anything definite. I do know that the general *issues* were
familiar ones (perceived lack of support from partner and community),
but not that sort of reaction (mourning, grieving, raging) and
certainly not the intensity, especially in absence of any apparent
reason for the sudden worsening.

What if we assume that the situation is as was described to me, that
the upheaval was simply thrown out by the remedy's action (about 3-4
weeks after a dose of 200c)? Or does this seem unlikely from your
experience? Possibly an example of a "close, but" remedy "clarifying"
the case?? What does it sound like to you?
Well, that's encouraging, tho the prospect of "quick acutes" to deal
with is not a happy one!

I guess I don't have confidence about just what that ("similimum
potency and dose") is for him. I doubt that he'd follow through with
LMs, and I want to gain my experience with them on cases where I have
fewer degrees of "remove". He is young enough and healthy enough, and
the correspondence seems deep and broad enough, that 200c seems easily
appropriate, and possibly higher would serve better. (I have seen that
*sometimes* a higher potency is actually more gentle than the lower
one.) But my "early training" has been to err on the side of low
rather than high, so that's what I've done... (Well, I don't know if I
*erred*; but I went lower than I actually would have liked to.)
Okay, I want to understand this...
I thought that with water doses (and added succussion and/or adding
more water) there is not such concern with re-dosing? I really don't
understand it! Still!

With a dry dose I know to simply wait until things have either stalled,
or begun to re-wind. (And if feasible, to wait until the picture has
re-stabilized.) But how do you decide when re-dose is appropriate with
water doses???
Yes I know, it muddies it...
It *seems* that both doses acted, but I realize it's not certain.

With dry doses I have in the past used a lower potency to calm
aggravation from a higher potency, but I thought that a water dose
would be preferable, and I opted for higher rather than lower, simply
because 30 actually was lower than I had been initially inclined toward
anyway.

However, I'm taking good note of what you say below...
Okay. As I think about it, this does make sense--a lesser symptom has
. I'll keep this
better in mind, and pass it along.

Ouch, but based on what...
I don't know what would tell me when / whether it's appropriate, e.g in
this case?
Sounds like you are saying it is *not* appropriate, so long as there is
continuing >> at the M/E level?

I understand when to re-dose with dry doses. How does the situation
change when we are using water doses?

Thanks!
Shannon

edited

If it were the remedy reaction then that would be continuing in some
direction with the rest of the case. It's difficult to say from a
distance and when not sat around a table, so to speak, but I would say,
imo, that it isn't the right rx if other quantifiable >>> isn't going
on. However, if, after that last upheaval she has returned to a stable
and satisfactory level then that could be a good sign but the case
should move on in some way for the better. These can be difficult cases
because at this stage you still cannot be certain that the simillimum
has been given. Palliation might be going on or a nosode/intercurrent
rx might be needed for the continuation of the case.

If a case is deeply emotional I always view an acute after the rx to be
a good sign, shifted to a superficial physical plane and it shouldn't
last long.

Much as I like to recommend LM's they don't suit everyone so don't
force the issue, even though you want to learn about them - wait for
another case to come along if you think this case suits a different
potency.

There is much less concern but you still don't want to be re-dosing if
you don't have to. Test dose, if no adverse reaction occurs but you
think the case requires more doses you can repeat but they must stop
repeating if a reaction does occur. I am talking mainly about LM's here
but say a 200 in water then I would be wanting a reaction before
repeating unless the case had some emergency status or urgency to it -
and even then you wouldn't be repeating if nothing were happening,
you'd be looking at another rx probably. Every case is different.
Serious pathology would probably warrant repetition of low potency
water doses - there are so many variations but that is because of
individualisation. Be guided by the client's state.

Yes, and as above. If there is a greater degree of comfort and
tranquility, spirits are raised, direction of cure appears to be
happening, slight aggravations (can be big ones but this needs to be
put into context), return of old sx, and all of the rest that you
already know are all favourable signs. A trivial sx might persist
for a long time.
Consider the degree of intensity of the case - if high then a single
water dose still might cure without repetition if the potency is
correct but repetition is still valid if the case requires it. That
probably isn't answering your question but do look at the intensity of
the case as a guide to what is required. Best wishes, Joy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Joy,
Well, I have kicked myself well for the way I responded...
I followed her panic (and also *thought* I saw good basis for giving
another remedy) and re-prescribed, and that remedy turned out to be
disruptive--she felt much better for a couple of weeks, then felt she
was relapsing and repeated the dose (*far* before what would have been
indicated for the situation) and got a nasty proving, which responded
some to remedies, but mostly just eventually (*months* later!) wore
itself out. Quite evidently she is "susceptible" to that remedy too,
but not in a curative way! So I've figured it was anybody's guess what
the dose of thuja was "trying" to do...
That was several years ago, and during that time things have been
better and worse, lots has gone "under the bridge". But I do not feel
there has been any very significant improvement. Maybe a little, maybe
not...
My strong hunch is that it *hasn't*...

(snip, re next case)

And usually shouldn't be treated, I guess... Rats, the ol' "patience"
thing, sigh...
Sac lac would be tempting, but I don't think I could pull it off :-/ ,
so will have to settle for "patient education"...
Yes, and it *looks* like that is what's happening. But time will
tell...

Neither his wife nor I want to get into "this little pill will fix your
nasty temper and depressive disposition" sorts of dynamic! But okay,
(thinking, thinking) I can explain, and am realizing that I *should*
have explained, that since the cough is longstanding and chronic, not
just a simple cold, it might not be quick to resolve. I think I
"tricked" myself into thinking of it as tho it were an acute (because
it is sometimes better and sometimes worse), but clearly that isn't the
case.
Does "if the case requires it" mean, if things are moving, but too
slowly, or what other things might it mean?

Could you give an example of a hypothetical case or two where
repetition would be appropriate, and what would be the basis for the
decision? I'm in particular trying to tease out just how
appropriateness of wet and dry re-doses would be different.

Thanks!
Shannon

On 19 Dec 2005, at 21:13, Robert & Shannon Nelson wrote:
If an acute is distressing enough and cannot be tolerated then it
should be treated, there is no reason why you shouldn't treat. The new
acute state comes to the surface replacing the chronic (to a certain
degree) temporarily.

Too slowly for who? Healing should be gentle but some cases take huge
amounts of time. You would want life threatening situations to be
healed promptly and that is the most urgent of all cases then you go
down the scale and this is why I said look at the intensity of your
case and equal it with a 'guesstimated' healing time; what you expect
from the case; what needs to be cured; etc. The case/client will tell
you if the case is hanging around.

Briefly then, a case 3 weeks ago of a child with dx autism but mild, a
lot of special needs learning required, refuses to talk. The case
seemed very clear, high potency single dose and I expect to see a
profound change when I see the child in a couple of weeks, but who
knows but I still 'expect' to repeat at some point but again, I
don't know yet and I certainly wouldn't repeat if reaction has
occurred.

A case of really painful sinus blockage, took ages to heal but there
was a lot of underlying emotional problems, tried various potencies of
only 1 rx until frequent doses of 12c in water healed.

Plenty of eczema cases, all different though, now I nearly always give
LM's for really bad eczema cases because repetition is nearly always
needed during withdrawal of suppressive creams or steroids etc, but I
always instruct to stop if >>> occurs.

Far too many cases of ME (CFS, PVS) - all seem to require repetition
because the repetition is like a succor for the case, the clients like
to get involved with their treatment, they like making up the LM
liquid, they really feel the need for this help the doses bring them.

A really sensitive case, migraines, decided on LM's (test dose fine) so
I let her repeat as needed, big mistake, big aggravations but this
faded with no intervention thankfully. A single dry dose cured.

How long is a piece of string Shannon I don't think I'm answering
your question, my rule of thumb will probably be different from others,
but assessing the intensity of a case really helps choose not only the
potency but also how you 'might' administer that potency. Think of it
as energy within the case.

In a more abstract way I would offer that if you feel you are repeating
but there is little change you would have to question the remedy choice
more than the dose. If there is change to the case and for the better
then be patient and do not repeat, even if a case slips back a bit you
might have to be patient because it can take off again. Near similar rx
waste so much time so be prepared to keep taking the case and assessing
the 'bits and pieces' that seem to have been helped but the case hasn't
really moved much except through the passing of time. if you are
getting >>> from a water dose but the case slips back a bit each time
then >>> after the next dose, then I would picture this as a sort of
case that needs that method for quite some time, bit by bit getting >>>
each dose, even though it needs repeating. In time you will know if you
are curing or not, then you have options of changing potency and/or
dose.

Feel free to ask more if I've not answered well enough. Best wishes, Joy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Joy!
I thought that "to speed the cure" was supposed to be part of the
rationale of water doses...

So, obviously by "slowly" I mean, slowly compared with what I might
expect or want for this particularly case, based upon other cures I
have seen. If that isn't to be my measuring stick, then what is?
"Hanging about" wasn't necessarily the issue here, but rather the
exacerbation of an uncomfortable physical symptom (the cough; at times
pretty bad one, as I understand it, but certainly not
life-threatening). But I gather you are saying that it would be
inappropriate to do any sort of repetition solely for trying to move
the cough along?

I assume you mean--that if reaction has occurred and seems to be
progressing the case, you would not repeat until that action seems to
be stalling?

Would you have any different expectation as to pace or duration of the
reaction based on whether the dose had been wet or dry?

Would your decisions re when and whether to repeat be any different
based on wet/dry? I understand dry doses--I just don't understand wet
dosing yet. That is what I'm trying to get clarification with.

This is a situation that could be helpful for me to understand--can you
recall what the various reactions were to the various potencies that
told you that you had the right remedy but not an optimal potency?
Were there accessory symptoms, or ??
There *is* change, but part of that change is distressing--the worsened
cough. Perhaps it's better by now; I haven't talked with his wife in a
few days. I suppose that's a good sign!
Sigh, so this is exactly the same as with single, high potency dry
doses...
Again, this above sounds exactly the same as with single, high, dry
doses. Is there a difference of time frame, or ??

Thanks!
Shannon

Personally I think the 'speed' of cure can only be addressed via the
'need' within the case and this is how we can best choose potency and
then dose. I don't think you can 'force' cure just by using water
doses. Cure is so intrinsic that maybe it has a pre-determined nature
(fast, slow and variations on that) and this nature will be encouraged,
released, by the simillimum potency and dose as well as obviously by
the simillimum rx. Perhaps David can say more about this.

We can all be impatient with a case but I have found that if I have
left a case too long the client will always tell me in one ay or
another. But this has more to do with the rx not being correct than
anything else. My other rule of thumb is that if the rx is correct
there is less to worry about regarding case management,
dosing/repetition etc.

Inappropriate only if there has been progress and the progress is
ongoing. But sometimes you get to nearly the end of a case and a
troublesome sx still remains and this needs to be addressed. Without
knowing the case and what this bad cough represents it is difficult to
say otherwise. Critical sx shift around within a case and the most
important come to the surface and this is an indication of what needs
to be cured, addressed, handled or left alone.

Precisely.

Only if I was worried about aggravations or sensitivity which would
take precedence.

If I felt that I might have to repeat often then I would always opt for
water doses because of the subtle shift in potency with succussion or
stirring that is achieved. If I feel that repetition will be needed
often within a short span of time (e.g. an acute), then I might still
opt for dry doses. Sometimes it comes down to what you have in stock
when you don't want to keep people waiting - thinking on your feet.

The only reactions were very slight amelioration that went away. There
were a lot of medications involved and I only stuck with the rx because
I was sure of it. I tried 30c single dose then repeated 3 weeks later,
LM1 two doses (bottle got dropped and broken), LM2 few doses but
nothing, 12c in water twice a day (most days) for a week completely
cured. Whether this was aided by the other potencies I have no way of
knowing.

Could be but sometimes clients get fed up when a problem sx isn't being
addressed by the rx and stop contacting their homeopath to let them
know what is going on. As I said before that cough needs a context vis
the whole case. If it is that bad then take all the sx of it, as a mini
totality, and rep it out, this might give you a new angle on the case.
If the intensity of the cough is higher than the other progress you
have to assess what is happening and decide where the balance lies.

I would say it is the same but I think I can only say this depends on
the case. You are more likely to repeat often for a longer time if it
is a water dose for the gentler approach and subtle change in potency
that they bring. As I said above I wouldn't be too happy giving oft
repeated dry doses for a long period but the time frame for a case can
be years with a dry dose repeated every now and again and that is fine.
Someone on LM's can be on them for ages, working through from LM1 to
LM30 if necessary.

This is all assuming the rx is correct - get the rx right and the rest
is so much easier to manage (most of the time).

Best wishes, Joy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, that certainly simplifies the issue for me...
Because again, I *do* understand when to re-dose with dry potencies.
I had thought people were saying that the "rules" are different with
wet doses. No one else has any input on this?? (David???)
As per Fourth Ed.?
Well, sounds like just a different way of doing fourth edition
method... If on thinking any differences occur to you, please share!
I guess I give up for now, will just do the ol' Fourth Ed. method that
I understand...
Thanks for trying!
Shannon

You are doing a great disservice to Hahnemann if you give up so
quickly on the final word of the master by sliding back to the 4th
edition...Homeopathy should progress not regress etc. etc.

This is another one of my I TOLD YOU SOs - potency bug biteth hard
without any teeth- mileage varies by practitioner and everyone has
good results... whether it is "wait and watch" old timers,
or "moisten and hasten" quick timers -

I agree with Joy in this - it depends more on the disease process
and the need of the vital force more than anything else... we are
only aiding the vital force - it does the cure at its pace... get
the remedy right - that is paramount -

of course there will be more proclamations, reading from the
originals and incriminations -

(Oh my precious let us "wait and watch" these Hobbits- what fun it
is ...)
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
the
the
potency and
nature
encouraged,
obviously by
potencies.
with
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seems to
high, dry
depends on
if it
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