Minutus

Well, are you saying 4th ed method *isn't* (any of) those things?

An odd thing to say about the method that has given us our foundation -- until the later editions began coming into use much more recently.

Sheri, don't be silly. If 4th ed method were as worthless as you keep (unworthily, IMO) saying, then homeopathy would not have achieved its *historical as well as current* successes -- because *most* of the homeopathy that has been practiced in our part of the work, was done by 4th ed method (at best). Imperfect? Sure. But not NEARLY as imperfect as you keep (IMO bizarrely) trying to say.
You also will not be treating a whole lot of the cases -- human and animals -- that others, with a more flexible tool chest, are treating to excellent effect.

You've said you would refuse to treat anyone who won't (or can't) use LMs; that is a limitation that I do not share.
I do know how to work with water potencies. As I have stated many times.

My experience with LMs is still rudimentary (my practice is very minimal these past some years, so getting that experience will have to wait), but I know the theory; I have used them sometimes.

And Cs and etc. in water I have used very frequently and comfortably, have no fear.
We're already determined that there is a WHOLE lot of ground in between LMs-or-drop-dead, and wait-a-month-or-drop-dead. And I keep saying that yes, there are some cases for whom LMs (or alternatively, low Cs, whether wet or dry) are more appropriate, and I am very comfortable switching among the different potency scales.

But if you don't want to, it's all right with me…
But it doesn't hurt, really… In fact the flexibility of homeopathy is really beautiful. And that's part of the reason it has thrived as it has.
But you can't make her read?
You keep "accusing" me of things that have nothing to do with me. Okay, gotta go.

I agree! However debate is alive and thriving, still.

Sherll
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 4:16 PM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Teaching the Organon
Hi Leilanae,

Thank you. Those were great days. Julian, David, Will, Walter .... Really learnt a lot from them.

Regards,

Paul
Sent from Samsung Mobile

Sheri,

Thank you so much for the detailed reply. I'm wondering about your thoughts on Wenda O'Reilly's version of the 6th edition? It happens to be the one I had finally settled on and am studying - thoughts (and why)?

Thanks,

Richard

Paul,

Gosh, it's getting wearying with people making assumptions that come solely from their own imaginations. Yes, I did not give an entire personal history here - which would have been inappropriate anyway. But I've said multiple times that I'm in the process of UNlearning much of what I had learned over at least 20 years. Yes, I have picked up more than a little about Xs, Cs, aggravations, watch and wait, etc., etc., etc. I FEEL like I'm starting from scratch at times, because there is so much UNlearning that has to take place. So in one sense I am starting from scratch, i.e. with the 5th and 6th editions. And unfortunately, that even includes earlier editions, because studying them previously was never stressed. So in one sense, I even have an appreciation - to a degree - for Irene's stressing the study of the Organon. I just don't happen to agree that studying it alone BEFORE anything else is the right way to go. I have a reasonably intelligent brain with reasonably good discernment skills, as evidenced by considerable success in multiple fields over a pretty good lifetime. And now that I own, and recognize the value of studying the Organon, I am comfortable that I can compare what I'm studying there with things others claim about homeopathy, and recognize congruence as well as significant departure.

Not many months ago we had a trash-party in our home. An entire shelf of combination remedies was thrown in the trash - at a considerable cost, accumulated over a considerable time period. Some of them were not available to the public, because I was permitted to order them from the company directly. Much of what I learned, I learned formally as well as personally, from the person who founded that company which still deals primarily in combination remedies. And I spent considerable money on a many hundred dollar course that he developed also developed. So please - you as well as others - please do not assume I'm painfully unaware of many of the basics. I'm far enough along to at least recognize just how flawed my initial course in homeopathy really was. I'm also having to decide what to do with nearly a full shelf of books on homeopathy that I realize are of little to no value to me any longer (some with some highly recognizable names here). And I'm also in a position where I'm having to sort through what I do "know," and pick out the parts that never were truely from Hahnemann, as well as some of the associations between concepts. I never realized just how interconnected the true fundamentals were with the false ones I learned, and how things that have become "fundamental" to me cannot be allowed to stand while I'm re-learning. So that, for me, requires a bottom up approach, knowing I know some things, but realizing I know far more that I wish I did not. I never considered the concept of truly having to UNlearn things before. In my lifetime I've replaced serious false assumptions of my own making in other areas, but never "learned" things formally that I had fully accepted and now have to piece-by-piece disconnect it all and start over.

I recently watched my wife, in great frustration, completely dismantle a piece she was knitting that she was well on her way to completing - when she realized she'd made a serious mistake. She literally undid everything she'd done, and started over from scratch. She didn't lose the knowledge she'd already gained about knitting, or even about knitting that piece. But she still had to start over and recreate it so it was finally right. 'Tain't easy....

The above is not critical - just the way it is. I do appreciate the good intent of all that have responded. If we both agreed on everything, one of us would be unnecessary.
Richard

Irene,

First, I did not quote you out of context, and frankly don't appreciate the accusation. The entirety of your post was as follows:
Just by the way...
David Little is not Hahnemann. (I also bought his course)

I suggest that before you study opinions of other than Hahnemann, read Hahnemann ....from start to end.
All I left out was the "Just by the way..." and "(I also bought his course)" parts. I fail to see how those added any context.

I also don't like being taken out of context. You conveniently left out multiple pieces of my post that significantly add to the limited context you quoted. And frankly, I find your following statement to be rather dismissive:
Are you sure?
Did your teachers give you arithmetic sums before y o knew what the numbers looked like?
Or did you first learn the numbers 1 through 0?

And did you learn to write before you knew were taught about letters?
Did you learn chemical reactions without first learning the table of elements?

Hahneman is the ABCs of homepathy. If you feel you do not need the ABCs, it is like a mathematician who wants to do math without using numbers, and just by reading the theory of relativity.
You are playing games here.
If you truly have studied to a higher learning level in some subject, ANY subject, you know better than to suggest you learn things back to front.

No, my teachers certainly did not teach arithmetic sums before I learned what the numbers looked like and how to write them. Same with the alphabet. And my aging brain still accurately recalls that at ages 5 and 6 I was ALSO beginning to learn ABOUT formal learning. Most everything else, short of what my parents taught me about what not to touch, how to wash my hands, and how to brush my teeth, was through my own trial and error. Early childhood can be so unforgiving at times. But in the process of learning ABOUT formal learning, part of that process included how to question concepts, pick apart arguments and evaluate the different parts of them, etc. And as I progressed through school, basic concepts were coming WITH discussion of those basic concepts.

Example: I always HATED history - until my senior year in undergraduate studies. I knew almost nothing of real worth about history because I did only what I had to, to pass tests (which I was good at doing). I could not graduate without a history course of some sort at the university level, and I put it off as long as I could. On day one of the dreaded course, the professor stood up and announced that he was a staunch adherent to a political philosophy with which I had major, strong disagreement. I figured my chances of passing the course, and thus graduating that semester, were approximately zero, and attempted to drop the course that day. He convinced me, much to my amazement (and distrust until either the first test or my first paper - I don't recall which) that I could pass the course without ever agreeing with him, as long as I could demonstrate a reasonable argument for my positions. It was the best history course I had ever taken, and spurred a great love of the study of history as a result - not just memorization of names, dates, and places. You see, I was well past first grade, and could learn basics and handle concurrent discussion OF those basics 15 years later.

And to suggest that I would argue "learn[ing] things back to front" would be insulting, if you really knew anything about me. But you don't, so I really don't care, except to set the record straight. I've also had considerable learning experience with the subject of learning theory itself, thank you very much.

So I suppose you can just consider me a to be that lost cause, however you choose to define (or blame) it. I'm comfortable with that.
Richard

You might consider that HAD you started with the Organon on its own, you would not now be having to *UNlearn what came from elsewhere
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I surely agree. It is often the way to measure a good homeopath - by how good their tool kit is - and how well they know how and when to use the tools.
A mehanic or doctor does not get by without tools either. Every profession needs special tools to do good work.
A recent case I had, illustrates it.
The presentation was of a very swollen abdomen, from which a lot of milky fluid had been drained, and the abdomen was swollen again with presumably more fluid. The diagnosis was FIP.
The individual was a cat but could just as well have been a baby.
Some tools I used were:
Knowledge of how to interpret bloodwork (and hence know it was not FIP)
Knowledge about fluid leaks internally (and that only CHYLE is milky looking)
Anatomy and function of the chyle system from intestines through thoracic duct to the shoulders ito the blood.
This told me what nutrients were being leaked out and lost to the cat in the chyle. I then needed to calculate how much chyle leaked per day (initially 300 mls, but after remedy selection it became 300 a week) and how much of each fat soluble nutrient to supplement, and how much extra protein to feed and how much hydration to use to replace what was lost. Acquiring hydraqtio fluid was near impossible, it needs an RX.
The chyle leak was reducing but when the vet saw the cat was dehydrated all three of them refused hydration fluids "because the fluids might just leak out" (AAAH!) so had to find other ways to get fluids which took a while..... The cat deteriorated badly, The liver was most affected, and remedy was changed to Calc which covered the whole case better at that point.
(Aqueous in F series potencies)
Also needed to use supplements (Moducare) and remedy (Aco) to keep infections at bay since all the lymphocytes were leaking out.
The cat seemed to get well quickly once hydration was restored, cyle leak almost disappeared but kept leaking some more. Cat was eating on its own again, and was playing and jumping about all over, playing.
Then suddenly the abdomen filled with fluid of 900 mls in one hour, which the vet drained all at once and without replaceent fluids (followed by hypovolemic shock and death.)
Autopsy & cytology has not come back yet, (I suspect lymphomas pural) but clearly something suddenly went wrong physically.
I suspect that the cat was playing about too wildly when it felt better and something gve way to change the leak from 300 ml per week or less, to 900 ml in an hour. (900ml seems impossible, just on volume for cat so fast, but that was what the vet reported)
Young animals do not exactly stay lying down to heal.

There will be more lessons to learn from the case, the cat lives in a cancer cluster area where a known spill was never cleaned up .... but it was an achievement to have the cat last three months after a severe chyle leak,and that was only possible becasue tools were used to make it happen by adressing a lot more aspects besides just a remedy.
The cat would not have lasted more than two days with or without remedy otherwise. There are no reports in the literature of a cat surviving a chyle leak more than two days, much less of how to treat a (carnivore) cat (or omnivore baby) with a severe persistent chyle leak as regards replacement nutrients ad consequential damage. (The cat was not operable per the vet.) It was necessary to research the composition of chyle and ratios of nutrients found in chyle, and what chyle did to the abdominal cavity and organs when leaked - and address it all.

Tools - including investigative tools - and nutrient and supplement tools - are essential to good homeopathy.
And it IS homepathy. Hahnemann talks of removing maintaining causes, and he talks of nutrition and environemtnal issues.

Solid, LM, C, F series, aqueous - they all work.

Different ones work better in different situations. I'll take aqueous F series over anything else if I have time.
When I am in a hurry with a heart attack happening however, I sure do not take time out to make the 1M arnica aqueous.
Nor when my cat might have been bitten by a boomslang he had wriggling in his mouth, The Lach 200C went in asap, and he lived to brag about the snake he caught.
My introduction to homeopathy by my cousin, involved dry calendula 200C powdered and sprinkled into the gangrene area. Worked just fine, no aqueous needed, and my leg was saved.

Namaste,
Irene
---
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

GREAT Story.

Thanks Irene,

Sherill
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 10:45 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Teaching the Organon
Different tools are appropriate to different tasks.

I prefer *adding* to my tool chest, rather than running my life by the principle of "if you were on a desert island and could only take one…"
I surely agree. It is often the way to measure a good homeopath - by how good their tool kit is - and how well they know how and when to use the tools.

A mehanic or doctor does not get by without tools either. Every profession needs special tools to do good work.
A recent case I had, illustrates it.

The presentation was of a very swollen abdomen, from which a lot of milky fluid had been drained, and the abdomen was swollen again with presumably more fluid. The diagnosis was FIP.

The individual was a cat but could just as well have been a baby.

Some tools I used were:

Knowledge of how to interpret bloodwork (and hence know it was not FIP)
Knowledge about fluid leaks internally (and that only CHYLE is milky looking)

Anatomy and function of the chyle system from intestines through thoracic duct to the shoulders ito the blood.
This told me what nutrients were being leaked out and lost to the cat in the chyle. I then needed to calculate how much chyle leaked per day (initially 300 mls, but after remedy selection it became 300 a week) and how much of each fat soluble nutrient to supplement, and how much extra protein to feed and how much hydration to use to replace what was lost. Acquiring hydraqtio fluid was near impossible, it needs an RX.

The chyle leak was reducing but when the vet saw the cat was dehydrated all three of them refused hydration fluids "because the fluids might just leak out" (AAAH!) so had to find other ways to get fluids which took a while..... The cat deteriorated badly, The liver was most affected, and remedy was changed to Calc which covered the whole case better at that point.

(Aqueous in F series potencies)

Also needed to use supplements (Moducare) and remedy (Aco) to keep infections at bay since all the lymphocytes were leaking out.

The cat seemed to get well quickly once hydration was restored, cyle leak almost disappeared but kept leaking some more. Cat was eating on its own again, and was playing and jumping about all over, playing.

Then suddenly the abdomen filled with fluid of 900 mls in one hour, which the vet drained all at once and without replaceent fluids (followed by hypovolemic shock and death.)

Autopsy & cytology has not come back yet, (I suspect lymphomas pural) but clearly something suddenly went wrong physically.

I suspect that the cat was playing about too wildly when it felt better and something gve way to change the leak from 300 ml per week or less, to 900 ml in an hour. (900ml seems impossible, just on volume for cat so fast, but that was what the vet reported)

Young animals do not exactly stay lying down to heal.
There will be more lessons to learn from the case, the cat lives in a cancer cluster area where a known spill was never cleaned up .... but it was an achievement to have the cat last three months after a severe chyle leak,and that was only possible becasue tools were used to make it happen by adressing a lot more aspects besides just a remedy.

The cat would not have lasted more than two days with or without remedy otherwise. There are no reports in the literature of a cat surviving a chyle leak more than two days, much less of how to treat a (carnivore) cat (or omnivore baby) with a severe persistent chyle leak as regards replacement nutrients ad consequential damage. (The cat was not operable per the vet.) It was necessary to research the composition of chyle and ratios of nutrients found in chyle, and what chyle did to the abdominal cavity and organs when leaked - and address it all.
Tools - including investigative tools - and nutrient and supplement tools - are essential to good homeopathy.

And it IS homepathy. Hahnemann talks of removing maintaining causes, and he talks of nutrition and environemtnal issues.
Solid, LM, C, F series, aqueous - they all work.
Different ones work better in different situations. I'll take aqueous F series over anything else if I have time.

When I am in a hurry with a heart attack happening however, I sure do not take time out to make the 1M arnica aqueous.

Nor when my cat might have been bitten by a boomslang he had wriggling in his mouth, The Lach 200C went in asap, and he lived to brag about the snake he caught.

My introduction to homeopathy by my cousin, involved dry calendula 200C powdered and sprinkled into the gangrene area. Worked just fine, no aqueous needed, and my leg was saved.
Namaste,

Irene
---

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info

(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Good one, Irene. Rub it in. I'm stupid. And it's my own fault.

"You might consider that HAD you started with the Organon on its own, you would not now be having to *UNlearn what came from elsewhere "

Well, DUH! I just love that raised voice with the word "HAD." You sound like a knows-everything parent putting down her stupid little kid. "You might consider that HAD you not touched that hot stove burner, you would not now be having to experience the pain and healing process associated with your burn."

But guess what - [Shocker alert! Make sure you're sitting down.] - I agree with you entirely with that little quip. You're absolutely correct - even if it was meant as a shot back at me (without any comment at all about my own reply to your previous comments about context which you were briefly but obviously concerned about, or taking mine OUT of context). And you obviously fail to recognize that the simple fact that I stated I'm having to UNlearn now, is an obvious equivalent of what you stated above. So yes - it would have been GREAT if my first introduction to homeopathy had included any meaningful reference to the Organon, and had anyone I came in contact with bothered to stress its importance.

I never heard of the Organon in my early introduction, and sadly the first course I took in homeopathy did not stress it. In fact, it was only mentioned in passing in a couple of introductory sentences, before the author moved heavily into "clinical homeopathy" based on work by some French homeopaths, and their heavy use of combination remedies. From what I can now determine, the course author knew Hahnemann had changed some of his methods in Paris, but he specifically stated that Hahnemann did not write about them! He even implied that Hahnemann developed the use of combination remedies that were perfected by those same French homeopaths.

I attended my first presentation on homeopathy quite literally as a joke. I was needing something uplifting in my life that day, heard about a lecture to be given at a local health food store in my area, saw that it was on homeopathy (which I knew nothing about except that it had weird number/letter combinations with Latin words, and that it was beyond ridiculous). So I attended, JUST to have some good laughs to end the otherwise dismal day (and week). Sounds stupid now, but that's where it all started. And fortunately, the equally weird guy presenting that night happened to say some things that struck me in unexpected ways, and caused me to begin rethinking homeopathy - to my absolute amazement. I asked him afterwards where I could learn more, and unfortunately was directed to the person that later wrote the above-mentioned course, as well as to a book written by Dana Ullman (which I don't believe ever even MENTIONED the Organon). Sadly, that's what I thought homeopathy "was" for many, many years. Organon? What Organon? I only learned about LMs and liquid dosing, as well as the critical importance of the Organon, about a year ago. And what little I had heard about the Organon in later years, never included anything past 4th edition information. You seem intent on making that my fault.

So, good for you, Irene. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. The problem is, one can't know what one doesn't know. But I'm sure you'll have a come back for that, too. Either way, you win.

Richard

There is no sound with email. There was no raised voice. (No sentence in upper case).
IF I wanted that impression to be received, I would have written it. I did not.
It is your imagination, and not polite either. Nobody likes words being put in their mouth, least of all me as I am very forthright as it is; there is no hidden agenda in my emails. So I shall thank you not to invent any.

I decline to read more when you start out so negatively.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."