Minutus

In a message dated 6/27/2015 2:30:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
Once again, "Organic molecules are usually composed of carbon atoms in rings or long chains, to which are attached other atoms of such elements as hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen," all elements that ionize.
Irene seems to be ignorant of the fact that ionization, plasma, is a material phase. Johannes Diederick van der Waals, for whom the van der Waal bond was named, is credited with observing that phase changes are gradual. Water, the universal solvent, for instance, is a self radiolyzing colloid, a fifth phase that can contain all previous four. Given the hydrate enthalpy change the plasma phase of water can de-ionize anything it is host to.
Irene has yet to identify what particular atom within an organic molecule doesn't de-ionize. She said it was Carbon and Silica, when anyone can read their ionization points on the Periodic Table.
Irene de Villiers has been demonstrably proven wrong.
Irene dear, what makes you think you're not wrong about organic molecules?
Yes, I do. Have the kindness and respect to reference your assertions, please, Irene dear.
Maybe that's advice you should take for yourself, Irene dear. Reference your assertions, please
John Benneth

Dear John
What you are confusing is the ionisation energy with ionisation in a solution.
1. The first ionisation energy is the energy required to remove the most loosely held electron from one mole of gaseous atoms to produce 1 mole of gaseous ions each with a charge of 1+. This is more easily seen in symbol terms.
As you can see this refers to the gaseous phase and not to a solution in water.

Please see http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry ... nenerg.htm
Best wishes

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 27 June 2015 20:04
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] SECRET CHEMISTRY OF HOMEOPATHY EXPOSED
In a message dated 6/27/2015 2:30:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
Once again, "Organic molecules are usually composed of carbon atoms in rings or long chains, to which are attached other atoms of such elements as hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen," all elements that ionize.
Irene seems to be ignorant of the fact that ionization, plasma, is a material phase. Johannes Diederick van der Waals, for whom the van der Waal bond was named, is credited with observing that phase changes are gradual. Water, the universal solvent, for instance, is a self radiolyzing colloid, a fifth phase that can contain all previous four. Given the hydrate enthalpy change the plasma phase of water can de-ionize anything it is host to.
Irene has yet to identify what particular atom within an organic molecule doesn't de-ionize. She said it was Carbon and Silica, when anyone can read their ionization points on the Periodic Table.
Irene de Villiers has been demonstrably proven wrong.
Irene dear, what makes you think you're not wrong about organic molecules?
Yes, I do. Have the kindness and respect to reference your assertions, please, Irene dear.
Maybe that's advice you should take for yourself, Irene dear. Reference your assertions, please
John Benneth
John Benneth, Homoeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com
SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

Benneth, Your rudeness in response to educational information is totally uacceptable.
Either read my emails and learn, or keep your wild imaginings ad intentioanal misconstructions (now going in circles repeating your prior errors already explained to you) and rudeness to yourself.
If I do not answer your wild ramblings again, it is because your emails are automatically filtered to the trash folder where all rude emails belong.

Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Dear Soroush,

I sincerely appreciate your attention to this matter. My assertion regarding ionization energy was a response to the attempt to theoretically exempt the de-ionization of the constituents of organic molecules, upon which the apparent attempt to debunk Copeland's dissociation hypothesis appears to hinge.

My previous point about phase changes in water speaks to the issue you raise about gaseous ions. As a colloid, water should theoretically accommodate the transition of phases. Note the lengthy discussion of cavitation in Roy regarding "nanobubbles.' In addition to this, I might be so bold as to point out that water is the combination of two elements that in their singular states are gasses, not liquids. I propose that water can be regarded as a cold plasma.

There are other worthy discussion points, such as the role of atmosphere and silica, but these are digressions from the starting point of this thread, that in conventional chemistry, there is recognition of a principle, previously taken both by homeopaths and wannabe debunkers to be peculiar only to homeopathic chemistry, that at complete ionization the properties and concentration of the solute persist throughout unlimited watering down, a electrochemical principle called "infinite dillution." designated by Λ°.

* In electrochemistry , lambda denotes the "equivalent conductance " of an electrolyte solution.

". . studies revealed that the equivalent conductivities of electrolytes all diminish with concentration "

i.e.,"Since ions are the charge carriers, we might expect the conductivity of a solution to be directly proportional to their concentrations in the solution. So if the electrolyte is totally dissociated, the conductivity should be directly proportional to the electrolyte concentration.
'But this ideal behavior is never observed; instead the conductivity of electrolytes of all kinds diminishes as the concentration rises " (!) http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/solut/solut-7.html
This statement, that conductivity in water diminishes as concentration rises, is found in a modern conventional chemistry website discussing infinite dilution! This parallels observations by homeopaths over the centuries that as concentration of the solute in water diminishes, medical effects increase.
Either as conductivity or medical effect, both observations appear anomalous . . at first, because modern chemistry rides in with an explanation:
"The primary cause of this is the presence of the ionic atmosphere that was introduced above. To the extent that ions having opposite charge signs are more likely to be closer together, we would expect their charges to partially cancel, reducing their tendency to migrate in response to an applied potential gradient.
"A secondary effect arises from the fact that as an ion migrates through the solution, its counter-ion cloud does not keep up with it. Instead, new counter-ions are continually acquired on the leading edge of the motion, while existing ones are left behind on the opposite side. It takes some time for the lost counter-ions to dissipate, so there are always more counter-ions on the trailing edge. The resulting asymmetry of the counter-ion field exerts a retarding effect on the central ion, reducing its rate of migration, and thus its contribution to the conductivity of the solution."
"The quantitative treatment of these effects was first worked out by P. Debye and W. Huckel in the early 1920's, and was improved upon by Ostwald a few years later. This work represented one of the major advances in physical chemistry in the first half of the 20th Century, and put the behavior of electrolytic solutions on a sound theoretical basis. Even so, the D-H theory breaks down for concentrations in excess of about 10–3 M L–1 for most ions."
http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/solut/solut-7.html
A reminder that it's the quantitative theory thar breaks down after 10^3, not the assay.
Homeopathy has been an orphan within the scientific community. But now observation of the actions of electrolytes in dlution can give scientific credibility to this seemingly anomalous form of medicine.
John Benneth
In a message dated 6/28/2015 4:14:44 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
John Benneth, Homoeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com
SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

The word "organic" has a variety of meanings, of course. But I think the usual *chemical* definition is simply "carbon containing." It doesn't mean they are alive...

Dear John

I love your enthusiasm - but I think great care is needed.
Where this care is needed is using standard terms of physics and chemistry and try to apply them to situations where those terms may not be appropriate.
The term 'ionisation' has a specific meaning and subject of many books and treaties of physical chemistry etc. So as soon as you start to use this term to a situation that does not fit it, it raises reactions as has been demonstrated on this forum.
I think rather than using 'ionisation' as the mechanism of what happens when a substance (a mineral such as NaCl or complex combination of various molecules such a snake poison) is triturated with lactose and then dissolved in water, or directly dissolved in water and then potentised, I like the phenomenon of the action of the copper strips in water poisoning spirogyra despite infinite dilution. Now I wonder if the same thing happens during remedy making using a machine like Korsakov's system. In this system, the same vial or test tube is automatically emptied, refilled with a set amount of distilled water, succussed and then emptied and so on. The vial is never cleaned or changed until a new remedy is going to be made.

This can go on a million times to produce MM remedies which are still reactive!
Now if you try and use ionisation theory to explain what happens when Lachasis is being produced as a remedy, you will have a tough time!
Do not forget that Jacque Benviste's experiment which was reported in Nature was the effect of diluted histamines on white blood cells and the white cells degranulated even at histamine at extreme dilutions was added to them. This was repeated by Prof Ince of Belfast University and others.

It was even shown to happen on BBC2's Horizon about 10 years ago despite the fact that some underhand stuff went on!
===

Back to dilution and ionisation

You had written below:

'But this ideal behavior is never observed; instead the conductivity of electrolytes of all kinds diminishes as the concentration rises "
This is of course true. It is years since I looked at a physical chemistry text book, but based on what I can remember, as concentration rises, the degree of ionisation and ionic movement and hence conductivity reduces. This is simply explained.
Let us use NaCl as an example. The size of the ions of Na+ and Cl- is much larger compared to H+ or OH-.
So when the concentration of NaCl is low, it means there are fewer Na+ and Cl- ions and lots of H+ & OH- ions. So these larger ions can pass through the smaller H+ or OH- ions by various mechanisms, especially if there is an electrical potential like when conductivity is being measured. However, as the concentration is increased, then there are much much more Na+ and Cl- ions than H+ and OH- ions and the movement of the Na+ and Cl- ions towards the cathode and anode are greatly restricted. And therefore conductivity is diminished.
Kind regards

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 30 June 2015 22:50
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] SECRET CHEMISTRY OF HOMEOPATHY EXPOSED
Dear Soroush,

I sincerely appreciate your attention to this matter. My assertion regarding ionization energy was a response to the attempt to theoretically exempt the de-ionization of the constituents of organic molecules, upon which the apparent attempt to debunk Copeland's dissociation hypothesis appears to hinge.

My previous point about phase changes in water speaks to the issue you raise about gaseous ions. As a colloid, water should theoretically accommodate the transition of phases. Note the lengthy discussion of cavitation in Roy regarding "nanobubbles.' In addition to this, I might be so bold as to point out that water is the combination of two elements that in their singular states are gasses, not liquids. I propose that water can be regarded as a cold plasma.

There are other worthy discussion points, such as the role of atmosphere and silica, but these are digressions from the starting point of this thread, that in conventional chemistry, there is recognition of a principle, previously taken both by homeopaths and wannabe debunkers to be peculiar only to homeopathic chemistry, that at complete ionization the properties and concentration of the solute persist throughout unlimited watering down, a electrochemical principle called "infinite dillution." designated by Λ°.

· In electrochemistry , lambda denotes the "equivalent conductance " of an electrolyte solution.

". . studies revealed that the equivalent conductivities of electrolytes all diminish with concentration "
i.e.,"Since ions are the charge carriers, we might expect the conductivity of a solution to be directly proportional to their concentrations in the solution. So if the electrolyte is totally dissociated, the conductivity should be directly proportional to the electrolyte concentration.

'But this ideal behavior is never observed; instead the conductivity of electrolytes of all kinds diminishes as the concentration rises " (!) http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/solut/solut-7.html
This statement, that conductivity in water diminishes as concentration rises, is found in a modern conventional chemistry website discussing infinite dilution! This parallels observations by homeopaths over the centuries that as concentration of the solute in water diminishes, medical effects increase.
Either as conductivity or medical effect, both observations appear anomalous . . at first, because modern chemistry rides in with an explanation:
"The primary cause of this is the presence of the ionic atmosphere that was introduced above. To the extent that ions having opposite charge signs are more likely to be closer together, we would expect their charges to partially cancel, reducing their tendency to migrate in response to an applied potential gradient.
"A secondary effect arises from the fact that as an ion migrates through the solution, its counter-ion cloud does not keep up with it. Instead, new counter-ions are continually acquired on the leading edge of the motion, while existing ones are left behind on the opposite side. It takes some time for the lost counter-ions to dissipate, so there are always more counter-ions on the trailing edge. The resulting asymmetry of the counter-ion field exerts a retarding effect on the central ion, reducing its rate of migration, and thus its contribution to the conductivity of the solution."
"The quantitative treatment of these effects was first worked out by P. Debye and W. Huckel in the early 1920's, and was improved upon by Ostwald a few years later. This work represented one of the major advances in physical chemistry in the first half of the 20th Century, and put the behavior of electrolytic solutions on a sound theoretical basis. Even so, the D-H theory breaks down for concentrations in excess of about 10–3 M L–1 for most ions."

http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/solut/solut-7.html
A reminder that it's the quantitative theory thar breaks down after 10^3, not the assay.
Homeopathy has been an orphan within the scientific community. But now observation of the actions of electrolytes in dlution can give scientific credibility to this seemingly anomalous form of medicine.
John Benneth
In a message dated 6/28/2015 4:14:44 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
John Benneth, Homoeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com
SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

Thanks for the encouragement, Soroush, and I understand your caution. After my last white paper, 'Ebola Prophylaxis and Cure,' I was rebuked by a prominent author on homeopathy for not first running it by my "colleagues," so this I have done with Copeland's article on infinite dilution.
In addition to the prominent author, I sent it to the former head of the physics department at a top university; a Nobel prize winning physicist; a homeopathic pharmacist, and of course, the Minutus list.
The prominent author said "I don't understand it."
The former physics department head didn't respond
The Nobelist wrote "Hi John ... yes, it is true that as you dilute more and more the dissociation tends towards complete dissociation, but in that limit there’s nothing left to dissociate completely? Is that not the case?"
The homeopathic pharmacist has yet to respond.
In contrast, the Minutus list yielded dozens of responses, almost 100, mostly from one poster and me, the primary objection being a condescending assertion that organic molecules don't ionize, and that I don;t know my chemical alphabet.
What was especially noteworthy is that, with one exception (an author who has written on the subject of h-bonded water chemistry) no one else had anything to say about classical chemistry's apparent acknowledgement that the ionic concentration and properties of the solute, such as molar conductance, persist through endless dilution, called "infinite dilution," obviously inspirational of homeopathy's use of the word "infinitesimal."
After 16 years of being metaphorically beat about the head and shoulders by endless trolls posing as skeptics, accused of fraud for pushing magic water, called crazy, scolded for my stupidity and chided to take a basic course in chemistry, picketed at the Cavendish, offered a million dollars for proof and the Nobel prize to explain it, I find its already been done . . you can look it up online.
John Benneth
In a message dated 7/1/2015 2:24:54 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
John Benneth, Homoeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com
SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)