Organic with covalent bonds.
The problem in this discussion is that too few folks know the difference between atoms, molecules, ions, ionic bonds, covalent bonds, elements, ionization, dissociation and chemical reactions.
These are the basic ABCs of chemistry words, and if the chemistry language with even these basics is not understood then nonsense statements get made by mistake and it leads the conversation nowhere, and to som efolks (not you!) getting frustrated and namecalling etc.
That has been happening.
(Also the bit Jon thought you wrote was somethnig I wrote)
That's the right question.
It is becasue organic molecules contain covalent bonds.
It is the bonds that count when deciding what will ionize.
ONLY an ionic bond can ionize.
Inorganic molecules are the usual source of ionic bonds, and
Organic miolecules are the usual soure of covalent bonds.
Soroush muddied the water a bit with his mention of organic acids (an exception for a special reason) as they happen to have one ionic bond among their covalent bonds, so they are organic molecules but ONE atom of theirs can actually dissociate (break off). But it does not make ions the normal way inorganic molecules do.
It is a special case. It can break off (dissociate) one H atom (H atoms generally can cause things to be acidic)
BUT instead of two ions that together make up the organbic acid, it forme two different ions that can not be joined to make the original organic molecule. so it is a special case and involves an extreme minority of chemicals, the organic acids.
With normal chemical behavior as seen in ionic bonds of inorganic molecules, their ionic bond breaks (dissociates) into two parts where rejoining them gives the SAME original molecule, There is no chemical reaction as with organic molecule dissociation of any kind.
(Chemical reaction means different end products occur from the starting ones after dissociation.)
I was trying to stick with ionic bonds of inorganic compounds. THese ionic bonds break apart (dissociate) into two parts that ALWAYS mke the same molecule when the two ions so formed, are put back together.
Example NaCl (sodium chloride or salt or nat mur) breaks apart (dissociates) into the ions of Na+ and Cl-
when you put Na+ and Cl- back togetehr they are NaCl.
With the odd case of organic acids, they are complex organic molecules with an H stuck on somewhere by ionic bond, to make them an acid. Most organic molecules have no ionic bonds, only covalent bonds that do not come apart when they are dissolved.
SO an organic acid can dissociate its H that is joined by ionic bond (but notr the rest of the multiple atoms in it, and that has to steal an H2O to work, and make H3O+ ion and an acid that lacks ONE H atom.
If you add those ions back together, you will get a different chemical than the original organic acid, as there is an extra O and two extra H's involved. That is becasue this is not true ioization as in organic chemicals but an actual chemical reaction rather than ionization. Only the fact hat the two resultant entities have a charrfge, allows them to be called i ons. But they have lost the integrity of being the same substance ionized or non-ionized, as occurs in inorganic molecules.
In homeopathy this matters, as in infinite filution, the nature of the chemical such as NaCL or Na+ Cl- is the SAME.
Now we know separately, that at infinite dilution, the nature and characteristics of the starting substance (whether inoprganic like NaCl, or organic which disolves but does not dissociate any atoms) are all present at infinite dilution.
How they maintain that integrity was the (suposed) subject of discussion and Jon said the integroty has to do with ions liek Na+ and Cl+.
But organic molecules do not dissociate any atoms (except a few exceptios like organic acids) no matter hw muc you dilute them, so one can not make a rule about what happens in the dilution to the atoms, to ensuree their character is there regardless of dilution, that uses a mechanism that ONLY applies to a few inorganic chemicals.
Joh also proposes that ionization somehow makes a LOT of particles from one, and calls it plasma, but that is not true either. At best two ions form from one molecule, no more. so they will soon be theoretically missing from an infinitely diluted solution.
I contend that any dissociation of inorganic molecules into ions is just a red herring in the discussion.
It can have nothing to do with HOW the molecules retain their characteristic behavior at infinite dilution.
We know they do.
Whatever mechanism allows the starting substance to retain characteristics after infinite dilution, has to be a mechanism that applies to ALL substances used in homepathy. (I do not believe there are different mechanisms for different types of molecules as would have to be the case if ionic or covalent bonds were relevant to any of them in any way.)
A covalent bond in ANY molecule, can not ionize.
It might be forced to dissociate if enough energy was supplied to force it - but the split is not into ions and only with a chemical change into one or more new substances.
Ions only form readily where their structure is such that they are h aooier apart than together.
(Every atom has a specific structureinvolving positive charges in the ucleus, and electrons moving around it in specific groups that like to be "full" groups.
If an atom has a single electron where it is happier with two, (they are all happier with paired electrons) it will very readily do chemical changes.
That is a simplification and what reactions an element (a basic substance that cannot be divided into smaller ones)
can do, is determined by its positio in the periodic table of elements.
So for example all the elements in a row will behave similarly (like fluoride, chloride, bromide for exampe) becasu they share similar electron configurations.
SO the position on the table predicts what elements will behave how with other elements.
No, here someone lacks the understanding of the langage.
ONLY specific elements can behave as ions.
Anythig will dissociate (split apart but not necessarily into ions), if enough energy is added.
Covalent bond dissociation is always a chemical reaction making new compounds NOT ions.
Ionic bonds can make ions when they dissociate but only inorganic molecules make ions that rejoin as the original substanbce and not a new chemical.
No this is a totally different area of chemistry, separate from any bonding and splitting of bonds as in chemical reactions and dissociations.
Chemical reactions are about bonds and making and breaking bonds. That is regular chemistry, using elements on the periodic table.
Atomic chemistry is about individual elements and radioactive forms of them and how to mess with the proton and electron structiure inside an individual atom, which can actually change an element into two other elements plus a whole bunch iof radioactive particle fling about., THINK FUKUSHIMA.
No. molecules are not ions and ions are not molecules.
Organic acids are regular organic molecules with one H atom plunked on somewhere with an ionic bond to join it.
The BOND determines what it can do or not do. All the covalent bonds in the orgaic acid are stuck that way. It is ccomplex and haas only ONE atom of H to mess with to make new ions.
Molecles are never ions. Again the "language of chemistry" issue arises.
Molecules are groups of atoms joined by bonds.
An ion is a section of a molecule that has split/dissociated into two parts IN SOLUTION, called ions, one part with + charge and one part with - charge. Ions only exist in solution.
Think of inorganic molecules in solution as a couple dancing without touching, they are ions.
Think of a organic molecule in solution as a couple dancing while holding onto each other, no ions.
Not like that.
Many molecules have charges, any number of charges.
Other molecules are totally neutral, no charges anywhere.
A molecule with charges is a POLAR molecule. (sorry but more vocabulary needed)
A polar molecule can be organic or inorganic. The charges are usually in areas of the molecules that have bonds involving H (like to be H+) or OH (likes ot be OH-) or NH (likes to be +)
SO if there are bonded H, O or NH (eg NH3) and some other chemical "groups" the area of the molecle with that grop will tend to be polarized (think magnet) towards the preferred charge of the GROUP. The entire molecule will always be neutral. So maybe a molecule will have two H+ areas and two OH- areas.The molecule in intact, nothig is split off or dissociated, it is just "polarized"
IF the molecule HAPPENS to be an electrolyte sucvh as NaCL then in solution it will dissociate into ions,
An organic polarized molecule will not dissociate. But in water, if it has negative areas, they will try to get n ear H areas of water wich are polarized + there. And any polarized negative parts of an organic molecule will try to be near the O-- of water wich has two negative charges there.
Water acts like an organic molecule. It does not dissociate, but is polarized, with two _ charges in the O area and one + charge in each H area.
Electron donors apply to chemical reactions, not to ions.
Ions have the charges present in the molecule, no extra ones.
Electrons are "donated" in chemical reactions, not in ioninzation where the starting charegs are the same and in the same places, as the ending ones.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
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