Minutus

In a message dated 6/19/2015 2:41:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
Let's see how you scramble out of this one, Irene. It's not my "theory" that the principle of infinite dilution is due to perpetual ionization, its an observed fact . . IT'S A LAW OF DILUTION!!
"Wilhelm Ostwald's dilution law is a relationship between the dissociation constant ... is dissociated into ions at ordinary dilution and completely at infinite dilution"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_ dilution
Don't take my word for it, READ IT! Read the whole article, and then come back and tell me its my theory.
Google "infinite dilution ionization" and here is what comes up . . the first being
*

Law of dilution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_ dilution

* Molar conductivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "This is known as the law of independent migration of ions. ... is the molar conductivity at infinite dilution (or limiting molar conductivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_conductivity
*

Are electrolytes completely ionized at infinite dilution

https://books.google.com/books?id=1oAfAQAAMAAJ
Harold E. Robertson - 1921 - ‎History
ARE ELECTROLYTES COMPLETELY IONIZED AT INFINITE DILUTION? Ever since the acceptance of the ionic theory put forward by Arrhenius 1 one of the ...
*
Remington: The Science and Practice of Pharmacy
*
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0781746736
David B. Troy, ‎Paul Beringer - 2006 - ‎Medical
The value of the equivalent conductance extrapolated to infinite dilution (zero ... the sum of the equivalent conductances of its component ions at infinite dilution, ...
*

A Textbook of Physical Chemistry - Page 505 - Google Books Result

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0852260202
A. S. Negi , ‎S. C. Anand - 1985 - ‎Chemistry, Physical and theoretical
13.7 Equivalent Conductance at Infinite Dilution An important relation can be ... Migration of Ions The law states that at infinite dilution, where ionization of all ...
*
Infinite-Dilution Diffusion Coefficients of Complex Ions from ...
*
pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ac981054i

American Chemical Society
by DA Dudek - ‎1999 - ‎Cited by 9 - ‎Related articles
A technique is presented for determining infinite-dilution diffusion coefficients of complex ions from solution con- ductivity data. The method involves measuring ...
No, inorganic "molecules" DO NOT make organic ones. Inorganic elements make organic molecules. But you may have an excuse for your confusion in asserting that organic molecules do not dissociate in water, which I will adddress in a moment. But I'd like to first say that the point I was making is that "organic" molecules have what are generally considered to be lesser INORGANIC components, such as the carbon atom, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen. Being that the definition of organic is the composition of living matter, and the organic molecule is comprised of what are thought to be non living components, what gives the organic molecule life? Why, by itself, will the carbon ionize, but by your theory, when in combination with other elements in an organic molecule it will not?
Again, it's not my theory. I'm simply reporting on Copeland and infinite dilution, which do not mention the non dissociation of organic molecules. What you gave me to back up your theory of organic molecules not dissociating was an article on organic molecules dissociating, CONTRADICTING YOUR OWN ASSERTION.
Give me a quote and a direct link to it where it say organic molecules do not dissociate, such as. "In general, organic acids are weak acids and do not dissociate completely in water, whereas the strong mineral acids do." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_acid
Does that mean then that there is ionization in the processing of only some homeopathic remedies, such as aurum metallicum, but not in others, such as lachesis?
Note the words "in general" and "do not dissociate completely," leaving open the possibility in serial dilution that they will ionize completely. In saying that organic acids do not dissociate completely, the Wikipedia article implies that they will and do partially; it does not address the possibility of complete ionization in repeated dilutions with succussion. According to Copeland, "The authorities agree that the dissociation increases with the dilution from the most concentrated solutions up to a dilution of about one one-thousandth normal. It is safe to assume that dissociation of the simplest drug is not complete under the sixth decimal dilution."
The implication is that progressive dilution and succussion is a march that will progressively and partially ionize any material, no matter how hydrophobic it is, until under repeated dilution it is ionized completely.

John Benneth, Homoeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com
SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

I still see a semantic confusion here.

Placed in a solution, anything soluble will eventually get "ionized" because everything will acquire an electric charge.

The simple salt NaCl will become Na+ and Cl-.

Complex mixed substances will have each and every part separated and acquiring a charge, either positive or negative but will not be decomposed in it basic elements.
So in my former example of Lac Vaccinum, you will have charged molecules of casein, charged molecules of lactose, etc, but they will not form a soup of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, etc,....

You can call those charged molecules "ions" if you wish, but the correct term would be ionised particles.

Joe.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.

"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

www.naturamedica.co.nz

I only scramble eggs fella!
Preferably with sharp-peppered cheddar grated on top:-)
I have no need of rudeness to make a statemenb of fact about chemistry.....or even a theoretical statement.
I studied chemistry for many years, and I use biochemistry daily in my research work.
I am not wet behind the ears about it.
You are referring only to the law of dilution of electrolytes - in other words ionic-bonded compounds such as Sodium chloride, potassium chloride, etc, or their ions....so it is a law of dlution of ionic-bonded compounds. specifically the subset called electrolytes, to which you refer.
It is YOU who needs to read the wikipedia article to which you link, with more care:
ONLY for electrolytes. Look it up:-)
I assure you, I do not:-) I prefer facts to fiction.
It is your theory.

You leave out all the relevant words in order to pretend you know what you are saying.
DO you even know what an electrolyte is?
Just becasue you do not know what an electrolyte is, is no excuse to omit it from the definition which yo claim supperts your ideas.
The definition you point to is ONLY valid for electrolytes...per the person who made up the definition.

Application only to ions or ionic bonds, was my point all along.
Electrolytes have no other kinds of bonds.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Not so Joe.

Only ionic bonds dissociate.
Covalent bonds of soluble substances become polarized in solution but their bonds are not broken and they remain intact molecules in solution.
If their bonds were broken, that would be a chemical reactoin into new substances, witih characteristics very different from the starting substance.

Organic compounds either do not dissolve, or they react with something else, or their molecules polarize in solution:
A polarized molecule will have a propensity to a more positively charged area where for example a positive tending "group" is part of the molecule, (such as H or NH3 etc) and will have a greater negativity where a negative tending group is part of the whole, (such as an OH group for example). The polarized group does not dissociate or separate from the molecule. It cannot do so without losing the TYPE of substance it is by chemical reaction into a new substance.
(See the link I sent to John about this - research in 2003 shows the energy of bond dissociation required to break any one atom off a organic molecule, resulting in a chemical reaction and new substance/es. The specific energies for many bonds - to force them to react into new sustances by breaking the bond - have been determined.)

It is as if the entire organic molecule is magnetized, but it is called "polarized" with a positive area/s and negative area/s, with a net charge of zero for the molecule. There are no separate particles with pos and neg charges as occurs with ionic bonds.
Yes. It has an ionic bond. (And is an electrolyte)
No... cannot happen without chemical reaction into a new substance,.
No, but casein may become a polarized molecule of casein
no but lactose may be a polarized molecule of lactose
SO it is not that these kinds of organic (means organic bonded as oposed to ionic bonded) molecules separate into charged subunits, they stay as one unit, but the way electrons are distributed through the molecule is skewed to favor groups that "like" to be negative or positive. SO the electrons spend more time in the negative tending areas, making them behave like a negative pole, and less time in the positive group areas making t hem behave like a positibe pole.
SO the molecules as a whole are polarized. Like mini-magnets.
Neither is correct.
There are no ionized particles from organic compounds in solution.
The molecule MAY be "polarized". But it stays intact in order to maintain its substance characteristics.
How strongly a molecule is polarized, varies according to the "groups" present in its structure.

Not all molecules are polarized.
For example CO2 (carbon dioxide) is a straight line molecue, a C in the center and an O at each end joined by a covalent bond each side between the C and O.
The two O "negative tendencies" cancel out with the C in the middle making a nonpolar result. CO2 has zero polarization.
But H2O for example is a bent molecule, as the O tends to be double negative and the H each are positive-tending (opposite situation as CO2) forcing the dipole moment and the weird angle of the molecule with its polar charges.
(H2O also does NOT dissociate, but IS polarized).

O-H and N-H bonds are the main players in behavior of polar molecules in solution.
Study of how it works is complicated by the fact that molecules are 3D not flat. SO they twist and turn in solutioj to get comfortable with how their charges are situated relative to the charges of the solvent such as water's O and H polarizarion.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Dear John
I think you may have missed / over looked the following line:

"Wilhelm Ostwald ’s dilution law is a relationship between the dissociation constant Kd and the degree of dissociation α of a weak electrolyte ."
The key word is ELECTROLYTE. An electrolyte is an ionic solution!

In fact if in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_dilution you key in ctrl & F and then type the word organic, you will find no occurances.
What Irene was trying to establish was that you need to have an electrolyte of however strength and both of you got your wires crossed!

(I must say the impoliteness is unacceptable in a scientific forum!)
But let us see if we can have organic molecules forming ions.
For pure and strong organic molecules such as benzene to dissociate, you would often need bombardment with electrons! As this is unlikely to happen in a test tube during potentisation, the matter can be put aside. But then you can have a remedy out of benzene!
Organic molecules can form (weak) acids and bases - an example of an organic acid is acetic acid (Vinegar) and its salts which then behave in mildly ionic solutions - however the organic part of acetic acid does not dissociate.

Acetic acid is not unique - for Dissociation Constants of Organic Acids and Bases, pls take a look at https://www.zirchrom.com/organic.htm
Now complex "organic" molecules such as proteins, contain many Nitrogen- Hydrogen (N-H) bonds. Similar to the N-H bond in ammonia, this N-H bond will be ionic with a positive charge on the hydrogen. So in water it will form a very weak ionic solution.

Please see www.callutheran.edu/BioDev/omm/chymo/chymo.htm
Having done so, then Wilhelm Ostwald ’s dilution law would apply!
Regards

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 20 June 2015 20:18
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] SECRET CHEMISTRY OF HOMEOPATHY EXPOSED
In a message dated 6/19/2015 2:41:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
Let's see how you scramble out of this one, Irene. It's not my "theory" that the principle of infinite dilution is due to perpetual ionization, its an observed fact . . IT'S A LAW OF DILUTION!!
"Wilhelm Ostwald's dilution law is a relationship between the dissociation constant ... is dissociated into ions at ordinary dilution and completely at infinite dilution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_dilution
Don't take my word for it, READ IT! Read the whole article, and then come back and tell me its my theory.
Google "infinite dilution ionization" and here is what comes up . . the first being
· Law of dilution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_dilution
· Molar conductivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "This is known as the law of independent migration of ions. ... is the molar conductivity at infinite dilution (or limiting molar conductivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_conductivity
· Are electrolytes completely ionized at infinite dilution
https://books.google.com/books?id=1oAfAQAAMAAJ

Harold E. Robertson - 1921 - ‎History

ARE ELECTROLYTES COMPLETELY IONIZED AT INFINITE DILUTION? Ever since the acceptance of the ionic theory put forward by Arrhenius 1 one of the ...

· Remington: The Science and Practice of Pharmacy

· https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0781746736

David B. Troy, ‎Paul Beringer - 2006 - ‎Medical

The value of the equivalent conductance extrapolated to infinite dilution (zero ... the sum of the equivalent conductances of its component ions at infinite dilution, ...
· A Textbook of Physical Chemistry - Page 505 - Google Books Result
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0852260202

A. S. Negi , ‎S. C. Anand - 1985 - ‎Chemistry, Physical and theoretical

13.7 Equivalent Conductance at Infinite Dilution An important relation can be ... Migration of Ions The law states that at infinite dilution, where ionization of all ...

· Infinite-Dilution Diffusion Coefficients of Complex Ions from ...

· pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ac981054i

American Chemical Society

by DA Dudek - ‎1999 - ‎Cited by 9 - ‎Related articles

A technique is presented for determining infinite-dilution diffusion coefficients of complex ions from solution con- ductivity data. The method involves measuring ...
No, inorganic "molecules" DO NOT make organic ones. Inorganic elements make organic molecules. But you may have an excuse for your confusion in asserting that organic molecules do not dissociate in water, which I will adddress in a moment. But I'd like to first say that the point I was making is that "organic" molecules have what are generally considered to be lesser INORGANIC components, such as the carbon atom, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen. Being that the definition of organic is the composition of living matter, and the organic molecule is comprised of what are thought to be non living components, what gives the organic molecule life? Why, by itself, will the carbon ionize, but by your theory, when in combination with other elements in an organic molecule it will not?
Again, it's not my theory. I'm simply reporting on Copeland and infinite dilution, which do not mention the non dissociation of organic molecules. What you gave me to back up your theory of organic molecules not dissociating was an article on organic molecules dissociating, CONTRADICTING YOUR OWN ASSERTION.

Give me a quote and a direct link to it where it say organic molecules do not dissociate, such as. "In general, organic acids are weak acids and do not dissociate completely in water, whereas the strong mineral acids do." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_acid

Does that mean then that there is ionization in the processing of only some homeopathic remedies, such as aurum metallicum, but not in others, such as lachesis?

Note the words "in general" and "do not dissociate completely," leaving open the possibility in serial dilution that they will ionize completely. In saying that organic acids do not dissociate completely, the Wikipedia article implies that they will and do partially; it does not address the possibility of complete ionization in repeated dilutions with succussion. According to Copeland, "The authorities agree that the dissociation increases with the dilution from the most concentrated solutions up to a dilution of about one one-thousandth normal. It is safe to assume that dissociation of the simplest drug is not complete under the sixth decimal dilution."
The implication is that progressive dilution and succussion is a march that will progressively and partially ionize any material, no matter how hydrophobic it is, until under repeated dilution it is ionized completely.
John Benneth, Homoeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com
SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

It's perhaps relevant that those substances which must begin their dynamization process via titration, not simply via dilution, are those which will not "dissolve in water." I.e., those that will not go straight into ionic form.

First evident reason, we can't "dilute" something that we couldn't "dissolve"; but maybe there are reasons beyond that too, e.g. transmitting the "energy imprint" (what would be a better term) onto something which *will* dissolve in water? Just thinking...

And adding my fervent agreement to that.

A molecule behaves differently from its component atoms (or component molecules) potentially in any way: melting point, boiling point, acid / base, color, solid / liquid / etc…

The fact that one molecule is "made of" others, says basically nothing about any property of the end molecule, would you agree with that?

Dear Soroush,

I think this is going to make matters even more confused as you are referring to organic acid-base (a special case) ionic dissociation in dilute solution.

The point you did not include is that here there is a CHEMICAL change when organic acid-base dissociation occurs.
With homeopathy, we need to understand the case where NO chemical change takes place and the diluted solution has the exact characteristics of the starting substance BEFORE dilution.

You refer to this:
Yes I did - BUT....
Acetic acid is NOT acetic acid when it is in water!
WHat happens is that the hydrogen proton of the acetic acid is chemically removed from the molecule AND RE-BONDED to a Water molecule making a hydronium ion from the water molecule plus the hydrogen atom.
This is NOT a normal pair of ions that are merely a split up molecule with two parts each with a different charge.
These are two different new molecules.
Instead of acetic acid you now have acetate and hydronium in solution.

Chemists refer to this as acid-base ionization but it is not true ionization as you get with electrolytes.
I feel you muddy the waters with this special case as it does nothing to help differentiate the true behavior of organic versus ionic-bonded molecles.

For homeopahthy purposes we need to explain how ALL homeopathic starting substances, retain their full characteristics in dilute solution and FAIL to change into new molecules with different characteristics (such as hydronium and acetate instead of acetic acid, to use your example. Hydronium is the result of all organic acid-base "dissociations". Hydronium is NOT water which is H2O, it is new chemical, H3O. In addition each acid has a percentage of it that will tend to dissociate this way, the rest does not.)\
If you are going to consider hydronium as an ion of relevance to homeopathy then you will have to count it for water itself as well. Water is just as much a weak acid as acetic acid is, from the perspective of making hydronium ions (along with hydroxide ones).
It is ONLY hydrogen that has this propensity to leave one molecule and join another with such relative ease.
An atom leaving one molecule and joining another is considered to have taken part in a chemical reaction even if the result is charged molecules....becasue a different molecule will have different characteristics.
....enough energy to force a chemical reaction into different compounds.
Again - not relevant to homeopathy.
Benzene does not disassociate. Its bonds would need to be chemically broken.
Benzene has a ring structure with 6 covalent bonds in a hexagon.

Adding electrons (as in running an electric current through it) is not going to make benezene form ions that act together like benzene!
To me this discussion is now going into pure chemistry and loses all contact with the objective of figuring ot how very dilute solutions retain their substance-integrity and characteristics.
ONLY true inorganic substances like electrolytes HAPPEN to maintain that when they dissociate.
There is no significant dissociation for the great majority of substances used in homeopathy.

You can pick little holes here and there with exceptions (like weak organic acid-base solutions or like the rare ionic bonds in the center of a few complex proteins) but it is trying to make the exceptions fit the rule and ignoring the main body of substances used in homeopathy which CANNOT dissociate, and I do not see the point of it. The ionic story is not relevant here. It applies in only la few cases. Homepathy integrity of substance applies to ALL cases, including the VAST majority that cannot dissociate but can at best polarize.

Namaste,
Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I find that direction of thinking more relevant to undersandig homeopathy. Does trituration cause clathrate formation?
If so why? If not why not?
....Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."