Minutus

I will throw in that if your theory is correct it only applies to the effects of potentisation. It doesn't explain the homeopathic effect obtained with crude substances or experiences.
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In a message dated 12/15/2014 2:04:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
Not everything has the unusually high emissive potential of water, as can be seen in 3H20, nor does anything match its radiolytic quality, its ability to ionize solutes. In fact, nothing does, water is a cold plasma, constantly subjecting its guests to radiolysis Nor does everything have water's interstructural facility at liquid temperatures, in fact, once again, nothing does. So I'm seeing two potential mechanisms which I assume are parts of the same radioactive hydraulic, so it follows that I'm expanding the radioactive theme to include effects on the electron shell out of nuclear emissions affecting the van der Waals, the hydrogen and sigma bonds So one mechanism is supramolecular, as in your clathrate, in which structural changes occur between water molecules, and by electrostriction account for lower frequency emissions; but the primary mechanism I venture to say is nuclear tranduction, and this is the core of the engine.
Well, there is a change in the entire electrical environment of the body. I think we have to ask how is it then that a little sugar pill can do this, unless we acknowledge a chain reaction through the hydroelectrical bonds of the body's water. The cellular energy receptor is the DNA which acts like a tropic antenna array. There are microorganisms that feed on isotopes for their donation of electrons. Bacteria can fix uranium. So there are examples of organisms using radioactivity for lifeI supect that if shielded from the background radiant field life would cease.
Clathrates, or cage molecules, are structural aqueous manifestations around solutes and their daughter isotopes. They don't necessarily account for the entire hydroelectric environment in the body.
And btw, I'm out of school on a lot of this, so you can preface it with "I think." But it should be noted that in over 14,000 words reviewing the technical literaure on the structure of liquid water in a search for relevance to homeopathy they mention mention the word "clathrate" only once:
"In the recent homeopathy research literature, various investigators have also proposed structural models quite analogous to what we are proposing, involving formation of aggregates of water molecules or water clusters, possibly seeded by, but not requiring, the continued presence of, molecules from the original source substance, e.g. zwitterions or clathrates [55, 115]. Others have also proposed involvement of a coherent electromagnetic radiation field within the solvent that contributes order to the molecular motion [ 74, 116].
"Del Giudice’s concept of “superradiance” or a “coherence” in an electromagnetic field of molecular structural elements (extending even into the 100μ range) is similar to some of our models. Clusters around certain foreign ions at great dilutions have been shown to grow to the micrometer range as shown in SEM photos with dilution [47]. These authors concluded: “It appears that there is an equilibrium in the solution between clusters and aggregates of clusters, which is dynamic and dependent on various factors such as concentration, solution history, time, temperature, etc.” To which if one adds epitaxy, nanobubble, and pressure effects, we have an exact statement of our own position. This complex heterogeneity makes the equilibrium distribution more susceptible to change by magnetic or electric fields and by the total homeopathic preparation process, including succussion."
Roy states: "A considerable body of work now demonstrates the effects of magnetic fields on aqueous solutions. ... the reports of the effects of milli-gauss magnetic fields on 'imprinting' water and aqueous solutions as reported by K. Mohri et al. are not surprising [70]."
(The Structure Of Liquid Water; Novel Insights From Materials Research; Potential Relevance To Homeopathy http://www.fixherpes.com/roy_structure_water.pdf)
By comparison to Roy, my 2010 lecture at the Cavendish was preschool.The clathrate was my central theme, primarily to demonstrate that there is a conventional, accepted example of the liquid aqueous structuring that homeopathy antagonists like Prof. David Colquhoun, masquerading as scientists, had claimed was impossible.
However, Roy only addresses the effects of radiation on the structure of water, they say practically nothing about the emissive qualities of H2O and its subsequent isotopic permutations, like 3H2O. Lasgne/Conte/Benveniste/Montagnier's work aside, speculation on the Radiation of Water and it's Potential Relevance to Homeopathy with Novel Insights from Plasma Physics and Radio Chemistry is new ground and is yet to be writtten by someone . . and it should be because of it's noted effects on the structuring of water and obvious effects on organisms . . its the last piece in the puzzle of the physics of homeopathy..
John Benneth
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I do not owe you my views (again).
Your arguments go in circles, no point answering in circles

Have a great day,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I cannot comment, I am out of my own depth here....will have to find the time to read the references myself, only way.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.

"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

www.naturamedica.co.nz
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Pricking my ears for that!!
Shannon

In a message dated 12/15/2014 9:37:02 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
The response to that is it actually does possibly explain the homeopathic effect obtained from crude substances and experiences, the suggestion being that potentization by dilution INCREASES the electrical quotient of crude substance by stripping it of its mass. In other words, it could be the ONLY explanation for the biochemical action of an organism, that it is detecting and acting upon matter electrically, not chemically.
The electrical quotient is in full accord with Hahnemannian's explanation of the body interacting magnetically to both crude substances and experiences
John
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Coming back a little later with more questions but how do your statements below apply to my statement of experiences - eg: self-help groups, counselling, exposure to different emotions that correct our own and so one. These (the ones that work) are based on similarity and so their effects can be described as homeopathic.

Fran.
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In a message dated 12/16/2014 8:14:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
Here I would like to mention so-called animal magnetism, or mesmerism (as it should rather be called in gratitude to ifs originator, Mesmer), which differs in nature from all other medicines. This healing force, which has been frequently foolishly denied or reviled for a whole century, is a marvelous, priceless gift of God to man, by which a well-intentioned man exerts his strong will over a patient with or without touching him, or even at some distance, in such a way that the vital force of the healthy mesmerizer gifted with this power dynamically flows into the patient (as the pole of a strong bar magnet acts on a bar of unmagnetized steel). This healing force acts in different ways; on the one hand it replaces vital force in various places where it is deficient; and on the other hand it drains off, reduces, and more equally distributes it where it has become so strongly concentrated in certain parts that it has caused and sustained vague nervous conditions. It removes the general morbid derangement of the patient’s vital principle and replaces it with the mesmerizer’s normal one, which acts strongly on him, in such conditions as inveterate ulcers, amaurosis, paralysis of individual limbs, etc. Many sudden cures brought about at all times in history by animal magnetizers gifted with great natural power belong to this category. The most spectacular among them are them are those rare instances in which a man bursting with vital energy uses his extremely strong and benevolent will to transmit human force to the entire organism and revive someone who has apparently been dead for some time—a sort of awakening of the dead of which history gives us many incontrovertible examples.
Hahnemann, p. 124 PARA-288 The Organon of Medicine
As you can see, Hahnemann allows the biomagnetic quotient to enter into human interactions. A case could be made here that language is merely a palliation of the actual communication of nuclear energy.
Experiments by Nobelist Montagnier found that in the same way a Mesmerist can communicate silently without touching the subject and alter consciousness and thereby the structure of belief, a "homeopathic remedy" can transmit its structure and potential action without contact to another vial.
Roy reported the same thing in The Structure Of Liquid Water; Novel Insights From Materials Research; Potential Relevance To Homeopathy showing that humans can alter the structure of water at a distance using neural enegy i.e. "telepathy."
These data on the effects of such weak magnetic fields are an appropriate backdrop to the fact that Tiller’s conditioned water can have its pH changed by one unit by a modest static magnetic field. This suggests that “intention implantation”, or more generally “subtle energies”, can also change the properties, and hence the structure of water. Even more direct evidence is found in the literature as reported by Liu Zuyin [71]. In Tsinghua University in Beijing, Raman spectra were taken of distilled water before and after implantation of “qi,” or intention, by Dr. Yan Xin, the best known of China’s Qigong grandmasters, from a great distance (10’s to 1000’s of km.). Figure 17 reproduces the major change in water structure as reflected in the Raman spectrum of before and after treated specimens [71]. These are truly remarkable results indicating that the structure of water—the major features easily measured by Raman spectra—is a very sensitive indicator of its physical environment including especially the role of magnetic and subtle energy fields. The most direct evidence, using infra-red spectroscopy (by E.G. Brame, an authority in that field) for the change of the structure of water by the “subtle energy” of healers hands in the U.S., has been presented by Schwartz et al. and Tiller.
Fig. 17. The change in the structure of tap water shown in its Raman spectrum caused by the emission of qi (subtle energy) by Dr. Yan Xin from a distance of 7 km. The main O-H stretch frequency is very strongly reduced and the bending modes strongly enhanced (compare before and after Qi, left and right). The bottom left shows the reversion in about 2 hours as it relaxes. The bottom right shows the sample to sample variation possible.
While such robust data are now appearing in the materials field, the effects of magnetic fields long reported in various other health interventions become much more plausible [74—77].
Further, any nano-scale heterogeneities, like the clusters or bubbles, have different electric and magnetic susceptibilities relative to the surrounding “bulk” water [78]. Thus, both electric and magnetic dipoles are induced at these interfaces [79]. For non-uniform fields, the nano-clusters and nano-voids will try to migrate towards the high-field regions of the bulk water under the influence of dielectrophoresis and diamagnetophoresis forces [80—83].
p. 24 The Structure Of Liquid Water; Novel Insights From Materials Research; Potential Relevance To Homeopathy
Being that water is the prime course constituent of life, you can see the profundity of these observations and the relevance to the human mind, body and homeopathy..
John
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While I do not have the education to challenge you or even ask an educated question at this point, I am fascinated reading this possible explanation of the mechanics of diluted remedies. I think if this is the case, then it will give us all further insight into how remedies work, how to keep them working, what disrupts their effectiveness, and how to further refine how we dose.

Thanks and I will continue reading.
Sherill
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 3:57 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] BENNETH: The Covert Alliance between Homeopathy & Skepticism [w...
In a message dated 12/15/2014 2:04:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, minutus@yahoogroups.com writes:
Not everything has the unusually high emissive potential of water, as can be seen in 3H20, nor does anything match its radiolytic quality, its ability to ionize solutes. In fact, nothing does, water is a cold plasma, constantly subjecting its guests to radiolysis Nor does everything have water's interstructural facility at liquid temperatures, in fact, once again, nothing does. So I'm seeing two potential mechanisms which I assume are parts of the same radioactive hydraulic, so it follows that I'm expanding the radioactive theme to include effects on the electron shell out of nuclear emissions affecting the van der Waals, the hydrogen and sigma bonds So one mechanism is supramolecular, as in your clathrate, in which structural changes occur between water molecules, and by electrostriction account for lower frequency emissions; but the primary mechanism I venture to say is nuclear tranduction, and this is the core of the engine.
Well, there is a change in the entire electrical environment of the body. I think we have to ask how is it then that a little sugar pill can do this, unless we acknowledge a chain reaction through the hydroelectrical bonds of the body's water. The cellular energy receptor is the DNA which acts like a tropic antenna array. There are microorganisms that feed on isotopes for their donation of electrons. Bacteria can fix uranium. So there are examples of organisms using radioactivity for lifeI supect that if shielded from the background radiant field life would cease.
Clathrates, or cage molecules, are structural aqueous manifestations around solutes and their daughter isotopes. They don't necessarily account for the entire hydroelectric environment in the body.

And btw, I'm out of school on a lot of this, so you can preface it with "I think." But it should be noted that in over 14,000 words reviewing the technical literaure on the structure of liquid water in a search for relevance to homeopathy they mention mention the word "clathrate" only once:
"In the recent homeopathy research literature, various investigators have also proposed structural models quite analogous to what we are proposing, involving formation of aggregates of water molecules or water clusters, possibly seeded by, but not requiring, the continued presence of, molecules from the original source substance, e.g. zwitterions or clathrates [55, 115]. Others have also proposed involvement of a coherent electromagnetic radiation field within the solvent that contributes order to the molecular motion [ 74, 116].
"Del Giudice’s concept of “superradiance” or a “coherence” in an electromagnetic field of molecular structural elements (extending even into the 100μ range) is similar to some of our models. Clusters around certain foreign ions at great dilutions have been shown to grow to the micrometer range as shown in SEM photos with dilution [47]. These authors concluded: “It appears that there is an equilibrium in the solution between clusters and aggregates of clusters, which is dynamic and dependent on various factors such as concentration, solution history, time, temperature, etc.” To which if one adds epitaxy, nanobubble, and pressure effects, we have an exact statement of our own position. This complex heterogeneity makes the equilibrium distribution more susceptible to change by magnetic or electric fields and by the total homeopathic preparation process, including succussion."
Roy states: "A considerable body of work now demonstrates the effects of magnetic fields on aqueous solutions. ... the reports of the effects of milli-gauss magnetic fields on 'imprinting' water and aqueous solutions as reported by K. Mohri et al. are not surprising [70]."

(The Structure Of Liquid Water; Novel Insights From Materials Research; Potential Relevance To Homeopathy http://www.fixherpes.com/roy_structure_water.pdf)
By comparison to Roy, my 2010 lecture at the Cavendish was preschool.The clathrate was my central theme, primarily to demonstrate that there is a conventional, accepted example of the liquid aqueous structuring that homeopathy antagonists like Prof. David Colquhoun, masquerading as scientists, had claimed was impossible.
However, Roy only addresses the effects of radiation on the structure of water, they say practically nothing about the emissive qualities of H2O and its subsequent isotopic permutations, like 3H2O. Lasgne/Conte/Benveniste/Montagnier's work aside, speculation on the Radiation of Water and it's Potential Relevance to Homeopathy with Novel Insights from Plasma Physics and Radio Chemistry is new ground and is yet to be writtten by someone . . and it should be because of it's noted effects on the structuring of water and obvious effects on organisms . . its the last piece in the puzzle of the physics of homeopathy..
John Benneth
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John Benneth, Homoeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com
SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

Your own explanation comes back to forming clathrates through energy, magnetism, hand imposition, Qi healing.

I wish I had access to labs that would allow to confirm that as I do use Qigong in my practice and often give local or acute remedies when I adjust patients, while doing it.

It seems to me that indeed clathrates are the common mechanism of action whereas what you describe are mechanisms of transmission.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.

"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

www.naturamedica.co.nz
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