re: OT: the raw food debate for cats

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Irene,
Do you see a problem with feeding the "kitten" formula to adult cats?
Mine get decidedly tubby if I let them (that is, if I leave the food
out all day)...
Thanks,
Shannon

[Sandra]

Hi Irene,

This is the ingredient list for one of the variety of Meow Mix Market Select wet food. They are each different types of meat, but
all contain real meat and it is the first ingredient, and then usually broth, etc. My vet told me when I purchase food to look for
these first three ingredients to judge whether it is good for them or not. Not good would start with cereal ingredients.This just
happens to be the fish one with tuna, and it does contain carrageenan. But this brand and variety is the healthiest I have been able
to find so far, better than the Friskies canned food they ate before. They will never go back now because they love it. Even the one
cat that would ONLY eat dry all her life gobbles this down. I think that the 'natural flavor' may be MSG, but I don't know. I can't
find a cat food that doesn't have something unhealthy in it. It's very costly for us living on SS and a pension, but I want them to
enjoy their food as they don't seem to enjoy anything else these days. I don't think any commercial food will extend their life any
longer and I have tried many ways over the years to follow the route of making homemade food for them but they would not eat it.I
thought when I found this with real meat and little cereal and they loved it, that it was a problem solved.

Sandra


Sandra wrote:

If you can point me to an ingredients list I'd be happy to comment.

For starters, vegetable oil is not good, too inflammatory. Cats need
fish oil. Does it contain carrageenan or guar gum? Most canned foods for
cats do have it. (They block nutrient absorption.)

NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Robert & Shannon Nelson wrote:

YEs and no:
Some cats put themselves on a "see food eat food" diet, especially
Pulsatilla constitutional typs. For these it is nto wose to leave food
where the cat ordinarily walks past it several times - especially if the
cat is older and less healthy or bored or has too few amusements or topo
little territory. (Feline territory is measured in paths not areas) .
I've had two cats who'd get fat on kitten food if I left it where
they'd trip over it.
For them I put the food where they need to do exercise to get to it.
In the one case (Sulphur constitution male - (they need a far bigger
territory than average or they pace) I had an outdoor run with a tree to
climb from which a cat could jump into an upstairs window for access to
the house and food.
For the other older Pulsatilla female - I had the food on top of a
counter. Puls is not keen on jumping up on things as they get vertigo
looking up so it was a bit of effort to jump up for her food.
No others of my cats had/have any tendency to overweight when older,
and eating kitten food.
I chose it not because it says "kitten" on the label - but for the
ratio of nutrients. I would use even higher percentage protein if I
could find it and lower carbohydrates. It's the carbs that make them
fat. The brand I suggested has 34% carbs, and I can;t find a lower one
currently.
The other option is to add more protein to change the ratios - such
as canned or fresh (people style, no carrageenan or goo) salmon,
sardines, chicken or turkey.
So those are exceptions - but in general cats of all ages do well
on ProPAc kitten dry due to better ratio of nutrients compared to any
cat food labelled "adult".
I'm looking at contents not label name:-)

As an aside: Cats MAY need extra trace minerals - like Nori which my
cats (who are all Norwegian Forest Cats) really love. There's no
research on Nori for cats that I can find however so I have no way to
know if it is good or bad at cellular level at this point - but
Norwegian Forest cats do swim in the sea, MIGHT eat microscopic seaweed
incidentally or intentionally in so doing - and do fish in the wild.
It's all I have to go on along with nutrient content, and the form of
Nori being already micro-particles (easier to digest). It might be a
natural source in that case, no way to know for sure. (Nori is not
Norwegian seaweed, it's usually a mix of about 27 varieties of seaweed
off Japan.) About half my cats go nuts for it, the other half don't know
what the fuss is about:-)
Thought I'd mention it, wish I cold verify what cat metabolism does with
it:-)
When I got wise to the need cats have for 24/7 food availability I
expected mine to get fat - and they initially did go overeat for several
days at least, till they figured it was a regular thing and the novelty
wore off. If the majority of my cats did get overweight - I'd be looking
for why they were so inactive rather than for a less well rounded food.
Currently I have 15, nobody overweight on this food, ages 2 to 13 at the
moment, so none geriatric at this point.
My clients report similar good results EXCEPT where the cat has had
serious vaccine damage and has consequent chronic illness such as
diabetes, hyperthyroid or some such - they need a special diet.

Hope that helps?
NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Sandra wrote:
Select wet food.

TUNA, FISH BROTH, SARDINE, SALMON, CRAB,

Fine to here. Pity they didn't stop there:-)
AS you say - hard to know what that is.
Wrong fatty acids for cats. The fact that they do not say which one is
also suggestive of sloppy processing, and likely loss of freshness. Seed
oils are probably the choice (cheap compared with Exta virgin olive
which is about the only anti-inflammatory veg oil and which they'd brag
about on the label if they used it). The veg seed oils contain too much
inflamamtory Omega-6 and if they contain omega-3 it is linolenic acid
which is also inflammatory.
Long-term this asks for kidney disease.
Fish oil by contrast is anti-inflamamtory and protects against kidney
disease.
Much of the "tricalcium phosphate" on the market is actually powdered
hydroxyapatite, common in the production of phosphoric acid and
fertilizers.
Here it is supposed to be a source of calcium but it is the wrong form
for cats as it is an antacid in this form - you may as well feed Tums!
It removes the stomach acid cats need to digest their diet of meat and
if it changes the pH up enough it can predispose urinary crystal
formation and FLUTD issues as well.
Prevents nutrient absorption.
It's used to make the food more jelly-like, and supposedly as a
fermentable fiber but it turns out cat gut bacteria do not ferment this one.
So you predispose gum disease due to the gooey food sticking to teeth
(apart from some nutrients not being absorbed) - which in turn can lead
to stomatitis and worse.
TUNA, LIVER,

Good stuff but evebn less than the gum added?

CARRAGEENAN,

Bleagh!
Same comment as the guar gum but without any chance of fermentablity

SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, MANGANESE SULFATE, MENADIONE SODIUM
BISULFITE COMPLEX (SOURCE OF VITAMIN K ACTIVITY)

This is Vitamin K3, the artificial version.
It has no ability to keep calcium in the bones. For that you need Vit K2
in the case of cats - from fermentation in the gut by gut bacteria. Vit
K2 is a fermentation by-product - so you need to feed the gut bacteira a
substrate to ferment and the best two fro cats are rice bran and beet fiber.
(For dogs Vit K1 is also good from spinach for example)
These aqre wrong ratios, and where' sthe pantothenic acid?
Cats are prone to stress issues and need the nerve and stress nutrients
to ensure health. They are not all here.

FOLIC ACID, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT,

okay

ANNATTO COLOR, CANTHAXANTHIN COLOR,

What for?
colors are toxins that cats do not need. They are added to please the
human buyer, not the cats.

SODIUM NITRITE (TO PROMOTE COLOR RETENTION).

If the foregoing did not put yo off this should.
Nitrites are some of the most toxic preservatives available on the planet.

Sorry - I do not agree with cat canned food in principle at all due to
gum health, stomatitis etc - but even ignoring that, this one does not
impress despite having some good first ingredients.
Good meat with poison added as condiments is not a happy finding is it?
It's difficult indeed - check out the ProPAc kitten dry - it's the best
I can find, and good value for money. I think you'll find the
ingredients at Petfooddirect.com.
They do not waste a lot on advertising - that seems to be mainly (or
totally?) word of mouth.
By the way - you can't compare cost per pound between cat foods as junk
food is cheap per pound but cats eat a lot of it to get any nourishment
out of it. (and you will spend even more on litter to put it plainly).

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Tanya Marquette]

what i would be concerned with, beside the preservative, is the grade of
meat and fish. for example,
tuna has a high level of mercury in it, some worse than others depending on
where it is fished.

paul neuman has an organic cat food line but i must say that when i was
still feeding canned, my
cats wouldn't eat it. there are several other food lines that are sold in
health food stores, i forget
their names now. some of them did not have artificial colorings or
flavorings.

tanya
Select wet food. They are each different types of meat, but
broth, etc. My vet told me when I purchase food to look for
not. Not good would start with cereal ingredients.This just
But this brand and variety is the healthiest I have been able
They will never go back now because they love it. Even the one
the 'natural flavor' may be MSG, but I don't know. I can't
costly for us living on SS and a pension, but I want them to
don't think any commercial food will extend their life any
making homemade food for them but they would not eat it.I
it, that it was a problem solved.
Market Select made by Meow Mix, in little cups? It's
vitamins.
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[Shannon Nelson]

Great, thank you!
My guys do love their eggs and occasional other protein "treats", so I
think I'll try a bit more... I love the idea of making them "exercise"
a bit to get at the food--I'll see what I can think of. (They're
absolutely forbidden--and have learned to live with it--from any indoor
table or countertop, so I won't try that! Shades of tongue-marks on
the butter... But there's one room that might work...)
Shannon

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Shannon,

My cat does get "snacks", and I chose tidbits that I can throw.

In order to get them the cat has to chase them one by one across the
apartment (sadly I cannot let him go out and my apartment is small).
He also has to jump to get on his favorite blanket etc.

He still is on the heavy side - probably runs in the family:-)

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Youlia Anderson]

Some of us have more stringent criteria for something as important as
nutrition. To me common sense is not enough, and I look for more.

ONE statistic I like is the lack of *any* chronic disease.

Namaste,
IRene
---------------------------
The nutritionists advise seems to chage with every new Time magazine issue.Back when I bothered reading the articles I was amazed to see all those different opinions,one month eggs were bad for you, the next they were good, grain is bad, then it is good, red meat is a killer, then it is needed. Luckily using just common sense I was able to feed myself and my family without the guidance of a well known nutritionists.I have two goats who eat weeds and twigs like as herbivore they are. My dogs eat whole prey or parts of whole prey just as carnivores should. Feral kitties I have around support themselves beautifully on mice, rats and birds.If the dogs leave any of the larger things ,like pork heads, unfinished in the yard, local cats come to feast on it too,I guess they don`t care that a pig was killed two weeks ago. So you see, I can feed my animals accordingly without any help, just based on their species, just like humans did for centuries before the nutritionists appeared on the scene to screw it up for us. Youlia

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Luise,
Ah, lovely idea! Wouldn't work so well with the canned mackerel...
I'll have to encourage my son with his "cat-fishing"
expeditions--that's been our main way of exercising them. But I'll try
the "toss-able treats" approach too--sounds fun!

[Sandra]

After reading all this I feel like I'm poisoning my cats. Is there any cat food that you think is good?

Sandra
Select wet food.

TUNA, FISH BROTH, SARDINE, SALMON, CRAB,

Fine to here. Pity they didn't stop there:-)
AS you say - hard to know what that is.
Wrong fatty acids for cats. The fact that they do not say which one is
also suggestive of sloppy processing, and likely loss of freshness. Seed
oils are probably the choice (cheap compared with Exta virgin olive
which is about the only anti-inflammatory veg oil and which they'd brag
about on the label if they used it). The veg seed oils contain too much
inflamamtory Omega-6 and if they contain omega-3 it is linolenic acid
which is also inflammatory.
Long-term this asks for kidney disease.
Fish oil by contrast is anti-inflamamtory and protects against kidney
disease.
Much of the "tricalcium phosphate" on the market is actually powdered
hydroxyapatite, common in the production of phosphoric acid and
fertilizers.
Here it is supposed to be a source of calcium but it is the wrong form
for cats as it is an antacid in this form - you may as well feed Tums!
It removes the stomach acid cats need to digest their diet of meat and
if it changes the pH up enough it can predispose urinary crystal
formation and FLUTD issues as well.
Prevents nutrient absorption.
It's used to make the food more jelly-like, and supposedly as a
fermentable fiber but it turns out cat gut bacteria do not ferment this one.
So you predispose gum disease due to the gooey food sticking to teeth
(apart from some nutrients not being absorbed) - which in turn can lead
to stomatitis and worse.
TUNA, LIVER,

Good stuff but evebn less than the gum added?

CARRAGEENAN,

Bleagh!
Same comment as the guar gum but without any chance of fermentablity

SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, MANGANESE SULFATE, MENADIONE SODIUM
BISULFITE COMPLEX (SOURCE OF VITAMIN K ACTIVITY)

This is Vitamin K3, the artificial version.
It has no ability to keep calcium in the bones. For that you need Vit K2
in the case of cats - from fermentation in the gut by gut bacteria. Vit
K2 is a fermentation by-product - so you need to feed the gut bacteira a
substrate to ferment and the best two fro cats are rice bran and beet fiber.
(For dogs Vit K1 is also good from spinach for example)
These aqre wrong ratios, and where' sthe pantothenic acid?
Cats are prone to stress issues and need the nerve and stress nutrients
to ensure health. They are not all here.

FOLIC ACID, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT,

okay

ANNATTO COLOR, CANTHAXANTHIN COLOR,

What for?
colors are toxins that cats do not need. They are added to please the
human buyer, not the cats.

SODIUM NITRITE (TO PROMOTE COLOR RETENTION).

If the foregoing did not put yo off this should.
Nitrites are some of the most toxic preservatives available on the planet.

Sorry - I do not agree with cat canned food in principle at all due to
gum health, stomatitis etc - but even ignoring that, this one does not
impress despite having some good first ingredients.
Good meat with poison added as condiments is not a happy finding is it?
It's difficult indeed - check out the ProPAc kitten dry - it's the best
I can find, and good value for money. I think you'll find the
ingredients at Petfooddirect.com.
They do not waste a lot on advertising - that seems to be mainly (or
totally?) word of mouth.
By the way - you can't compare cost per pound between cat foods as junk
food is cheap per pound but cats eat a lot of it to get any nourishment
out of it. (and you will spend even more on litter to put it plainly).

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."