Minutus

Dear Shanon
Thanks for comprehensive explanation. I accept all of these are mental excersise and do not change any thing in practising Homeopathy. But finding the answers will make us well equiped against simillar questions from the side of other professionals.
Regarding the distinction between Homeopathic remedies and other kinds of drug, with ultimate respect, I do not accept it. Entire treatments are effective only on vital organisems. Can you suppose effect and action of a pain killer upon a dead body? Therefore disease, health and treatment are all about vitality and all the drugs act on vital force. It is us that subdevide an organisem to material and immaterial parts for better understanding otherwise there is a unity in any organisem. I belive it can not be the answer of my question. Am I right?
Regards
Dr. John

Robert & Shannon Nelson wrote:
Hi Dr. John,
Well, the action of a potentized remedy is quite a different thing from
the action of a chemical, or even from the action of something like
radiotherapy or radiation. Even tho the active "substance" of these
last two is non-material (as is the active "substance" in a remedy),
still it is acting on the gross, physical level of the body; it is
acting on the *material* of the body, and acting in a material way.

The action of a potentized remedy is different. Remedies act by
*stimulating the body's forces* to act, and they do so not by virtue of
their physical properties (which are only the physical properties of
sugar or etc.), but instead by virtue of their energetic effect *on the
life force* of the patient. Would you agree with this distinction?

The physical and chemical properties of drugs, radiation, radiowaves,
etc., are easy enough to quantify and regulate, and their effects on
physical and chemical systems and substances are reasonably constant
and predictable.

The physical and chemical effects of a remedy, OTOH, depend less upon
its own physical/chemical nature, and more upon its interaction with
the patient's "life force" (remedies have no effect upon corpses or
inanimate objects!). So the effect depends on a variety of factors,
including the state of the life force as well as other factors which
affect it, as well as the interplay between these and the energy of the
remedy--a vastly more complicated situation!

All of which is to my mind less important than the fact that: the
action of the remedy *does* vary as described; so spinning out theories
about "why" is pretty much just an intellectual exercise... Does that
make sense to you?
Best wishes,
Shannon
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Hi tom
It is OK, I appreciate all of your replyings. these are an abridged litrature of Homeopathy. I went through your points. They are absolutly right and interesting. I accept the difference among patients but honestly do not have enough information about esiophysic. therefore it is hard for me to discuss about it. I dont like to seem dull!!!
Overall, I have recieved two groups of explanations: 1. The answers that concern on difference of patients as reason of huge difference between duration of actions of Homeopathic remedies in relation to conventional medicine. I believe it can not be the correct answer because the same differences should be applicable to conventional medicnes.
2. The answers that emphasize on difference of Homeopathic remedies' nature with other drugs'. Honestly they still could not satisfy me to be the reason of this unbelievable distinction between reaction of patient to them
I am waiting for other explanations.
Regards
John

"H.T. Cotter" wrote:
Hi John,

Pardon me for butting into what appears to be a spirited dialogue between you and Soroush, but I find the temptation to share or ponder my own clinical experience in this matter. Perhaps instead of the ubiquitous "energy" title; if we regard the input from a homeopathic remedy as information it might make more sense. Information theory suggests a factor that either speeds or brakes the action of homeopathic remedies and explains why in about 5% of the population homeopathy works very poorly, if at all. If anyone doubts the health response to information, note that about 70% of our hospital admissions are from iatrogenic (doctor induced) illnesses. Merely telling a patient they are sick makes them so.

As to the subtlety of the input, consider that when someone sits down at a restaurant to order a meal, they are give a piece of paper stained with toxic chemicals and by looking at this piece of paper they do a full body simulation of the prospective foods that the patterns of the ink names. This capacity to filter information from noise is an esiophysical capability. Esionic capabilities and the reaction to information varies widely within any specie. Even identical twins frequently differ greatly in their esionic capabilities. Remember the expression that he who laughs last is the slowest to get the joke? This is a complex measure of their ability to extract the information from the noise, make the connection of the various interpretations of the information, and view it in a context to trigger a reaction. In the case given, to trigger a humorous reaction.

When I give a patient Arnica for trauma, or Causticum for a burn, or Aurum metallicum for depression, the remedy selection comes first from my own esionic capabilities in analyzing both the salient capabilities of the remedy and the salient characteristics of the patient needing the remedy. Over the decades of practice, my reactions are frequently not sequential or consciously logical. And the only reason that I would need to be sequentially consciously logical would be to satisfy the curiosity or skeptical condemnation of someone who has somehow made himself emotionally involved as to whether or how the process works. The important part of my reaction to my esionic gatherings and subsequent action (remedy selection and administration) resides only in the positive effects on the patient.

Their benefit or lack thereof to my ministration of their remedy is largely a function of their subconscious esionic capabilities and its effect on their immune and other systemic responses. I give most of my remedies as liquids which if chemically analyzed would appear to be a weak vodka highball of ethanol and water. Sometimes I'll use sugar globules as the vehicle. Either way, the patient's common senses are getting what would appear to be identical input (weak cocktail or a little sugar). However, the reaction depends upon the solvent carrying the proper solute, no matter how extremely it has been diluted. The depression patient wouldn't do well with Arnica, nor the burn victim with Aurum metallicum as examples. Thus, I submit to you that the shadows of the long since diluted out solute have been written in a form of information on the solvent that the body can read and the language in which it reads it is bio-linguistic. This language of life provides the means
to allow the esionic acceptance and reaction to homeopathic remedies.

If you look at the wide variety of lives led by people who have graduated from the same public school systems, then you get an idea of the variations in response to similar information delivered to diverse personalities. In my opinion and my experience of nearly 3 decades of clinical practice, the subtle bodily responses to information are just as varied. You questioned why some remedies work in minutes and others in years -- Some patients do respond in minutes or less. Many patients have told me they experienced relief when the remedy hit their tongue. I have never had a patient call up and say, "Hey doc, that remedy you gave me in '98 just kicked in." However, I've seen patients who years later have told me that their lives changed from a single remedy or course of remedies they received years earlier.

Sorry to be so long winded but your point and question are significant and deserved, in my opinion, a stated course offering understanding. Let's see how your reaction and that of others who might be interested in this dialogue does with this rather tangled web of noise.

Best wishes,

Tom
(Dr. H. Thomas Cotter)

Maybe you should re-aquaint yourself with Arndt-Schulz Law of pharmacology.
MIchele.

The best way for you to understand is to study cases

Simon King,
http://www.Homeopathy-Help.net

Hi there
Regarding point 1. : to me it seems logic that a person living with much stress will consume the remedies energy much faster than a persdon living with no stress at all
Marco
Dr. M. Franzreb Corbelletti
www.drmarcofranzreb.com
Sent via BlackBerry

Dear John,

Esion is a physics term that means "extracting information from noise." If you were ever in the military service (well, back in the days that I was in the service) you were probably given a test to determine your likely ability to be a telegraph operator. When I took the test, it seemed a hopeless jungle of dots and dashes (dits and daughs) so I guessed at the meanings and hoped for the best. When the results came back, I found that I scored a respectable 70% on the test. So I was either subconsciously discerning the patterns in the noise, or I was just plain lucky. Those people who can determine those patterns have high auditory esionic capability. Likewise, have you been hunting and there's a member of the party that can see deer grazing on a far hill. You can look until your eyes hurt, but can't see a thing. Then they'll call your attention to some easily recognized landmark and say, "look about 100 yards right of that and see that gray looking rock. Now look below that about 200 feet. See that stand of trees there. Well, just above it you'll see those brownish shapes. That's the deer grazing." At that point you see it too, but their "hunter's eye" had the visual esionic capability to sort that group of motion and shape out of the surrounding "noise."

Your points/questions were: 1. The answers that concern on difference of patients as reason of huge difference between duration of actions of Homeopathic remedies in relation to conventional medicine. I believe it can not be the correct answer because the same differences should be applicable to conventional medicines. 2. The answers that emphasize on difference of Homeopathic remedies' nature with other drugs'. Honestly they still could not satisfy me to be the reason of this unbelievable distinction between reaction of patient to them

There are some considerations here that come into play. First of all, conventional (allopathic) medicines are chemical medicines. Their specific chemistry makes them favor a certain set of organs or glands (and the side effects are their predicable but undesirable primary effects in reducing homeostasis in related organs and glands). They are strong medicines and their actions are predictable from limited input (not individualizing to the patient) because the chemistry is at least well known empirically. Secondly, the very nature of the un-wholistic medicine requires no information exchange between the remedy and the immune and other health provoking systems. It's like comparing checkers to chess. Patterns on checker boards are much more easily recognized that patterns on a chess board. Wholistic medicine requires the body to act pro-healing. Chemical medicines simply modify the chemistry of the patient. And even though our allopathic brothers and sisters have in these recent years developed their own group of nosodic remedies, they still lack our powerful spread of sarcodes (energetic protomorphigens).

Of course, many allopathic remedies are homeopathic remedies and many are isopathic remedies. Nitroglycerine is quick to come to mind as a homeopathic discovered remedy used by the allopaths . Our specifics generally are very fast acting. Of course, in homeopathic practice, it is often easy to envy our allopathic peers their wide body of specific medicines that can be applied on one or two symptoms. And if you compare specifics to specifics (and we have many specifics) then the reaction time among patients is far more predictable. It is in our miasmic and constitutional prescribing, or in prescribing polychrest remedies that are addressing multiple systemic changes where it is only logical that greater time will be required in the sicker patients. Remember, by their very nature of being wholistic, our drugs affect the emotional and mental generals as well as the physical specifics. There is a tremendous fallout, regroup, fallout, regroup cascade that follows the homeopathic reaction that settles down as the organism regains balance (homeostasis).

But friend John, let me ask you this. Why are these points of such intense interest to you? It seems many more interesting points of contention and differences between the two schools that would be challenging to a man of your obvious intellect.

Sincerely,

Tom

Dear Shannon, Thank you indeed. I wrote beow in red

Robert & Shannon Nelson wrote: Hi Dr. John,
Eh, good point!
And yet pain killers and other drug treatments do exert their action
through chemical actions, which are to a large extent (?) known
("blocking" pain receptors; or changing permeability to this or that;
or binding this or that...). Can remedy effects be explained
similarly?
***I think so, as after complete cure all the lab test get normal.
But, in my understanding, they do so thru the agency of their action on
the chemistry of the body. But the chemical action of a remedy is only
that of a small-to-miniscule amount of sugar, which is why we call them
"energetic" remedies. Doesn't that seem different to you?
***Hahnemann says any agent that can cause disease can cure some diseases. Therefore I think the medium is not very important. Even an emotional stress can cause problem in one person and cure the disease in another one.
Yes... But remedies and drugs (or also potentized versus unpotentized,
or low potency versus highly potentized) do have different sorts of
effects. I have yet to hear of any drug or nutrient that can in single
or infrequent doses achieve the sort of basic re-ordering that a
well-chosen "constitutional" remedy can. Would you agree?
***There are several trace elements in body that with lack of nano gram cause a lot of problem and after replacement remove all the symptoms. I myself have seen a patient that after using one dose of Digoxin (Crude conventional medicine)all the symptoms of chronic heart failaure are gone for good.
Well, which question? The question of why remedy effects are more
variable than drug and radiation effects, or another?

To me it seems pretty plain--action of a remedy is at a "subtler"
level--less dependent on those types of chemical and physical
properties that are fairly constant among different people, and more
dependent on a type of energetic (perhaps there is a better word)
functioning that quite varied among different people.

What would you propose the answer might be?
***I do not know exactly. All of the explanations are correct but I feel there is a lost part in these.
Any way this discussion has cleared manythings to me.
Best,
Shannon
Regards
John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ATTENTION PLEASE:

The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.

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Dear Michele
Honestly, I did not get your point.
John

michele & Peter Graham wrote:
Maybe you should re-aquaint yourself with Arndt-Schulz Law of pharmacology.
MIchele.

Dear Simon
I absolutely rely on correctness of this issue in practise. My question is about the theoretical explanation.
John

Simon King wrote:
The best way for you to understand is to study cases

Simon King,
http://www.Homeopathy-Help.net
ATTENTION PLEASE:

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Dear Tom, Thanks a lot. I wrote below

"H.T. Cotter" wrote: Dear John,

Esion is a physics term that means "extracting information from noise." If you were ever in the military service (well, back in the days that I was in the service) you were probably given a test to determine your likely ability to be a telegraph operator. When I took the test, it seemed a hopeless jungle of dots and dashes (dits and daughs) so I guessed at the meanings and hoped for the best. When the results came back, I found that I scored a respectable 70% on the test. So I was either subconsciously discerning the patterns in the noise, or I was just plain lucky. Those people who can determine those patterns have high auditory esionic capability. Likewise, have you been hunting and there's a member of the party that can see deer grazing on a far hill. You can look until your eyes hurt, but can't see a thing. Then they'll call your attention to some easily recognized landmark and say, "look about 100 yards right of that and see that gray looking rock. Now look
below that about 200 feet. See that stand of trees there. Well, just above it you'll see those brownish shapes. That's the deer grazing." At that point you see it too, but their "hunter's eye" had the visual esionic capability to sort that group of motion and shape out of the surrounding "noise."
**** Thanks I got it
Your points/questions were: 1. The answers that concern on difference of patients as reason of huge difference between duration of actions of Homeopathic remedies in relation to conventional medicine. I believe it can not be the correct answer because the same differences should be applicable to conventional medicines. 2. The answers that emphasize on difference of Homeopathic remedies' nature with other drugs'. Honestly they still could not satisfy me to be the reason of this unbelievable distinction between reaction of patient to them
There are some considerations here that come into play. First of all, conventional (allopathic) medicines are chemical medicines. Their specific chemistry makes them favor a certain set of organs or glands (and the side effects are their predicable but undesirable primary effects in reducing homeostasis in related organs and glands). They are strong medicines and their actions are predictable from limited input (not individualizing to the patient) because the chemistry is at least well known empirically. Secondly, the very nature of the un-wholistic medicine requires no information exchange between the remedy and the immune and other health provoking systems. It's like comparing checkers to chess. Patterns on checker boards are much more easily recognized that patterns on a chess board. Wholistic medicine requires the body to act pro-healing. Chemical medicines simply modify the chemistry of the patient. And even though our allopathic brothers and sisters have in
these recent years developed their own group of nosodic remedies, they still lack our powerful spread of sarcodes (energetic protomorphigens).

Of course, many allopathic remedies are homeopathic remedies and many are isopathic remedies. Nitroglycerine is quick to come to mind as a homeopathic discovered remedy used by the allopaths . Our specifics generally are very fast acting. Of course, in homeopathic practice, it is often easy to envy our allopathic peers their wide body of specific medicines that can be applied on one or two symptoms. And if you compare specifics to specifics (and we have many specifics) then the reaction time among patients is far more predictable. It is in our miasmic and constitutional prescribing, or in prescribing polychrest remedies that are addressing multiple systemic changes where it is only logical that greater time will be required in the sicker patients. Remember, by their very nature of being wholistic, our drugs affect the emotional and mental generals as well as the physical specifics. There is a tremendous fallout, regroup, fallout, regroup cascade that follows the
homeopathic reaction that settles down as the organism regains balance (homeostasis).
*** these are serious, vast and important issues. I have to think about them and study some books again.

But friend John, let me ask you this. Why are these points of such intense interest to you? It seems many more interesting points of contention and differences between the two schools that would be challenging to a man of your obvious intellect.
**** thanks for asking. Because as a honest observer and medical professional I can not deny incredible efficacy of Homeopathy but I never could digest the explanation of Homeopaths about the reason of such huge difference between Homeopathy and other methods.

Sincerely,

Tom
Regards
John