Minutus

Sourosh,

I think you'll find I did advocate playing mental scenarios forward before entering
the risk zone... prior to this email but in the case where she is not able to eg. rape, abandonment, contraceptive failure etc I was trying to elucidate for Andrew just what women go through
to reach a decision it's not all cut and dried and cold heartedness

maybe if men did this too before this deep involvement we wouldn't have so many
divorces, abandoned families and unwanted pregnancies too ...

Jas

P.s. you were wondering about your tone ... this is one where your tone could
get you into hot water

Finrod wrote:

.....most women? How do you 'KNOW' this? Then why do they put up their
children for adoption? There are many contradictions here. I live in England
and yes there are thousands of children 'available' for fostering and/or
adoption but, according to agencies I speak to things are not so bad. So so
many find loving homes and new families. I think it is best not to make
gross over or under statements about this.
..... not true here, many older children in fact form the majority of
children available.
--and that leaves a lot of children left in the "care" of woefully
inadequate state facilities--and foster homes. It is not, by any stretch of
the imagination, a good life.
.... again, this might be your opinion only.
There are many children I know of who are glad to be away from their birth
parents.
Regards, Joy Lucas

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Hi Joy,
.....most women? How do you 'KNOW' this?

I know this because most women do not opt to give their children up for adoption.
Then why do they put up their
children for adoption? There are many contradictions here. I live in England
and yes there are thousands of children 'available' for fostering and/or
adoption but, according to agencies I speak to things are not so bad. So so
many find loving homes and new families. I think it is best not to make
gross over or under statements about this.

It is true, many children DO find good homes. I personally feel more people ought to adopt the children which exist in this system--but so many more are compelled to have "their own" children, at any cost. The "fertility" industry is huge here--even though there are thousands of children who've been left for adoption who need homes.
..... not true here, many older children in fact form the majority of
children available.

Well, this is not the case in Canada and the US. Most people who would qualify as "suitable" parents want babies...and when they "can't" adopt because the children available are older than newborns, many try the "fertility drug" route.
--and that leaves a lot of children left in the "care" of woefully
inadequate state facilities--and foster homes. It is not, by any stretch of
the imagination, a good life.
.... again, this might be your opinion only.
There are many children I know of who are glad to be away from their birth
parents.

I don't doubt the second part of your statement. But that doesn't mean they are placed in safe, caring homes via these institutions. If suitable parents can be found for each child, great--but often, as I said, these children are raised in foster care programs or left in institutions which are inadequate. Don't forget--we're in the midst of huge tax-redirection efforts in North America...any funding these institutions received from our tax dollars has been redirected away from supporting them. I know from first hand experience that foster-parenting programs are so slapped together as a result, in Canada, that many children just end up being passed from one 90-day family to another--with no efforts being made to ensure stability or security for children in that system. Many can't even complete the requirements of the school system, grade by grade, in this system. That's a pretty big failure--not on the child's part, but on the way the system is organized and structured.

Alternately, there are many excellent parents who are denied the opportunity to adopt children for inane reasons--such as the way they exercise their sexual preferences. Even if adoption does take place successfully, laws in North America do not allow those parents to ensure the same kind of stability (eg. what if one of the parents should die--who would have custody of the child, what provisions would be made in terms of legacy, etc. etc.) that same sex couples could ensure for their children.

There are many, many problems with the adoption option--and it is not ideal, by any means. Women can and do consider these problems when they weigh their options regarding pregnancy.

Regards,
Nancy

Regards, Joy Lucas

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: "Nancy Siciliana"
[snip]
Then YOU will not force such a decision on anyone.
[snip]

Hi Nancy;),

Easy there;).... I understand where you're coming from and
all...but.............a vasectomy? That's a bit extreme....What if he wants
to have children later?
How 'bout just advising a 'raincoat'? (or two if he's really considerate;)).

Also, maybe he's abstinate?

Sorry - I couldn't help chuckling when I read this reponse.
Lisa

I write .....you do not know ALL women and if they did not opt for for
giving up for adoption then why are there thousands out there waiting?

Wonderful as these discussion are let's move on now this is a homeopathy
site.

Regards Joy Lucas

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Tanya wrote:



Ditto in all details. But I was never badgered in any way about my choices.
It must be so much harder for a woman whose circle/legal system is insistent
on her motherhood for whatever reasons they've made up (it's ALL
attitude/beliefs; there is no omnipotent mandate).

Also -- I wonder how things would go in this world if a woman were to birth
the child, then hand it over to the man who sired it and walk away (the way
guys walk away now). What if, in fact, she were required by law to do this,
since men are so much more favored financially in the marketplace and in
other lucrative leadership environments, and would therefore be more able to
support their children? Then the guy would have the "should" in his arms and
in his court. Thank goodness for nutritionally complete infant formula.
By the way, homeopathy, in case we've momentarily forgotten what this list is
about.

Best, Margaret

Margaret wrote:
[snip]. Thank goodness for nutritionally complete infant formula.
is
Firstly, those 'complete infant formulas' are not so good for babies -
certainly not ideal. Unless they've managed to reproduce the missing
hundreds of amino acids that mother's milk has (baby formula only contains
about 96 - I believe that number is correct or thereabouts - it's close!)
not to mention the immunity and benefits of bonding, etc, etc, etc...

Secondly, of course it is a Homeopathy list. As if we didn't know.
Uuuuuuuuuup, somebody knock me upside the head everytime we discuss
something on the periphery. This whole subject has been incredibly
informative to many of us (hence all the posts) - AND Homeopathic - from the
perspective of case-taking - how to set aside personal
views/biases/predjudices, when dealing with patients, etc not to mention
trying to understand each other in the Homeopathic community as a whole....
all these things roll together. So what. No one was being offensive - and I
hafta ask: who made you moderator? Pardon me for having a human emotion and
being mildy annoyed Margaret but it's not the first time you've gone around
'slapping people's wrists' and I find that condescending and
offensive......(this is not a knee-jerk reaction to one occurence).

Regards,
Lisa

Hi Lisa,

There's been at least one "moderator post" reminding us to stay on topic and
use PRIVATE email as appropriate during this waaaay too long
abortion/feminism/incest discussion, and I too, would VERY much appreciate
ppl getting back on topic.

These topics are more than enough to fuel permanent ongoing discussion on
another appropriate list; it's very easy to set up such a list if ppl feel
motivated to continue the discussion..

thx,
Dave Hartley
http://www.localcomputermart.com
Santa Cruz, CA (831)423-4284

Tri-Cities Computer (TN) |Asheville Computer (NC)
423-952-0983 or 877-245-3362 |(828)285-0240
$9.95 internet http://www.federalisp.com/?page=ispsignup

a short answer desired to a short question: the main tenor of your argument
is that abortion, in appropriate circmstances, will save the mother from
anguish and the would-be child a future of suffering in poverty, despair
etc.
Assuming this is valid, tell me the difference bewteen this and killing of
the old, insane, retarded, paralysed. they too live lives of despai, and
those who care for them are in anguish.
thanks
Andrew

Vasectomies are quick (10-20minutes, in the doctor's office, local anaesthetic), easy operations which can be reversed.

I don't think its extreme at all!! Not when you consider that its the ONLY form of birth control women don't have to do all the work/shoulder the risk of side-effects and complications for.