Minutus

In einer eMail vom 15.07.04 04:52:00 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt
shannonnelson@tds.net:

<< Now this is interesting...
If "many stones go spontaneously away", why on earth could homeopathy not
help that to happen? I assumed you were saying that homeopathy could not
remove stones because the body had no way to remove stones, but now you are
saying the body *can* sometimes remove them on its own, but remedies cannot
help. This I don't understand at all! Or are you saying that *large*
stones cannot be removed??
Interesting discussion, thanks!
Shannon
15.7.4.
There is sludge=some sort of pre-stone, small stones and big stones, each
ones of the last two being sinlge or multiple.
Small stones, due to MECHANICAL reasons which can be particular from person
to person, do slip away very often, sometimes even without symptoms or
unspecific ones and so they do disappear. The big ones stay, being to big to pass the
channels. So this is very frequent and definitely has nothing to do with
homeopathy.
Nor can it be induced by homeopathy or allopathy or something else, so far at
least.
It just happens as other mechanical phenomena, similar, do happen in nature.
I have doubts that the initial diagnosis of stones and the controll diagnosis
after homeopathic therapy were suitable to GUARANTEE that the stones did
disappear.
I believe they SUPPOSED due some other symptoms or disappearing of certain
symptoms, that the stones must have gone and concluded that this was due to
homeopathy. It is very improbable, speculation nothing more.
With homeopathy, the prevention of creating stones in the bile/conditions of
bile production in liver-cell (because there is the fault, in the fine
chemistry of bile production), could eventually be prevented with such remedies as
the ones mentioned by this doctor from India.
Kind regards, Dr.medic. Viorel V. Bucur (www.dr-bucur.com).

In einer eMail vom 15.07.04 05:09:16 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt
shannonnelson@tds.net:

<< Hooray, actual *experiences*!
Did you have need of "organ remedies" and acute remedies, in addition to
"constitutional" treatment? Any observations/generalizations about
treatment of gallstones?
15.7.4.
Acute and constitutional, of course. "Organ remedies" as such never heard of
so far! We know TODAY that there are remedies working on special organs, that
is but something else.
Never saw or heard about 1 proven gallstone provingly disappearing by
homeopathic treatment. As I already mentioned, I believe it is a matter of diagnosis
and of lucid interpretation. Kind regards, Dr.medic. Viorel V. Bucur
(www.dr-bucur.com).

Here are brief notes from 5 cases but I don't have time or permission to
write up the full cases. All cases were female, ages ranging from 36 - 55.

Two were Lycopodium, one of which was a long standing, chronic case of quite
large gall stones and she had repeated episodes of pain, didn't want
surgery. She suffered quite a lot after Lyc in as much as the stones seem to
turn to gravel and were passed in the stools and a long state of diarrhoea
set in. I gave 200c and I think 30c would have been better. The other Lyc
case was small stones and considerable amount of gravel. Two doses of 30c.
Third case was Chelidonium, very weak and tired, jaundiced. Had previous
bouts of gravel but then turned into stones. Started with 6c but went up to
12c repeated. Another was a nux vomica case but there was no proper follow
up (she went on holiday and didn't make another appointment but I know from
her husband that she is still well), last case was podophyllum, small stones
accompanied with bouts of diarrhoea that had hard lumps in them. Only
characteristic M/E sx was that she was an extremely restless person.

I, myself had gall stones many years ago so I know what the pain and sx are
all about, maybe that is why I get these cases

Generally, nearly all clients talk about the excruciating pain under right
scapula when the stones are trying to be passed through. I think it is a
long standing condition, i.e. it takes time to build up to the acute state.
Beware of jaundice. If the client isn't in the acute state when you
interview them make sure you get details of the acute phases as you might
well need to prescribe for the acute. As in all liver remedies there is
irritability. The allopaths used to say it is all about diet (cholesterol
build up). It usually runs in families, as do many ailments (I have my
mother's gall stones in a jar!! and myself and my sister were quite young
when we had ours).

What else can I say, there are so many remedies that could be used for such
a condition.

Best wishes, Joy

www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
on 15/7/04 4:04 AM, Bob&Shannon at shannonnelson@tds.net wrote:

Hooray, actual *experiences*!
Did you have need of "organ remedies" and acute remedies, in addition to
"constitutional" treatment? Any observations/generalizations about
treatment of gallstones?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In einer eMail vom 15.07.04 17:28:43 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt
j.lucas@ntlworld.com:

<< Here are brief notes from 5 cases but I don't have time or permission to
write up the full cases. All cases were female, ages ranging from 36 - 55.
Two were Lycopodium, one of which was a long standing, chronic case of quite
large gall stones and she had repeated episodes of pain, didn't want
surgery. She suffered quite a lot after Lyc in as much as the stones seem to
turn to gravel and were passed in the stools and a long state of diarrhoea
set in. I gave 200c and I think 30c would have been better. The other Lyc
case was small stones and considerable amount of gravel. Two doses of 30c.
Third case was Chelidonium, very weak and tired, jaundiced. Had previous
bouts of gravel but then turned into stones. Started with 6c but went up to
12c repeated. Another was a nux vomica case but there was no proper follow
up (she went on holiday and didn't make another appointment but I know from
her husband that she is still well), last case was podophyllum, small stones
accompanied with bouts of diarrhoea that had hard lumps in them. Only
characteristic M/E sx was that she was an extremely restless person.
I, myself had gall stones many years ago so I know what the pain and sx are
all about, maybe that is why I get these cases
Generally, nearly all clients talk about the excruciating pain under right
scapula when the stones are trying to be passed through. I think it is a
long standing condition, i.e. it takes time to build up to the acute state.
Beware of jaundice. If the client isn't in the acute state when you
interview them make sure you get details of the acute phases as you might
well need to prescribe for the acute. As in all liver remedies there is
irritability. The allopaths used to say it is all about diet (cholesterol
build up). It usually runs in families, as do many ailments (I have my
mother's gall stones in a jar!! and myself and my sister were quite young
when we had ours).
What else can I say, there are so many remedies that could be used for such
a condition.
Best wishes, Joy
www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
15.7.4.
Well, this sounds different, good and more serious, including the remedies
which make sense. However, tell me who and how was the initial diagnosis made
and how and who did the proving AFTER the stones "were gone", as you state? Than
I will be glad to reply for myself. Thank you.
The "clinical" picture description I will not comment, it is a different
story.
Kind regards, Dr.medic. Viorel V. Bucur (www.dr-bucur.com).

Blood tests, scans and in one case and endoscopic test.

Joy

www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
on 15/7/04 5:29 PM, VBLUES@aol.com at VBLUES@aol.com wrote:
15.7.4.
Well, this sounds different, good and more serious, including the remedies
which make sense. However, tell me who and how was the initial diagnosis
made
and how and who did the proving AFTER the stones "were gone", as you state?
Than
I will be glad to reply for myself. Thank you.
The "clinical" picture description I will not comment, it is a different
story.
Kind regards, Dr.medic. Viorel V. Bucur (www.dr-bucur.com).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In einer eMail vom 15.07.04 19:45:58 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt
j.lucas@ntlworld.com:

>
16.7.4.
Still to vague, I am sorry. Only scans (you mean echography or MRT?) actually
would be precise enough. The rest isn't. It might be but not specific. What
do you mean by "endoscopic"? ERCP? There are many people with normal blood
tests with stones and viceversa, for example.
I mean yo have to understand, that when making the statement "the patient has
gallstones" or "the patient had gallstones" - this has to be backed by
something.
"Pain in the right shoulder" is by no way enough, it comes like that in
colics but also in other diseases, but only then and it is not the routine thing.
The routine thing is different. But this is something else I will not elaborate
here. So the jaundice.
There is a difference when you have a skin-case getting better, something you
can prove by just looking or some nose-bleeding or some menstruations problem
or whatever you name it (fever, diarrhoe, flu, etc.) and something like this
gallstones or comparable, which is "inside" and difficult to confirm or
control. There is a big difference -THIS is what I mean. If THESE kind of statements
are adequately backed
by adequate, undoubted, information.
Independent from our discussion here, you have to know that there is a
enormous amount of wrong diagnosises in this field even in allopathy, which is much
more precise due to the modern gear available, including echography and even
computertomography. Both are still indirect methods. Even experienced doctors
make mistakes sometimes, believing they see something which after that -
eventually in operation, so directly seen - proves to have been completely wrong.
Usually these things are not followed up and proved, because other
diagnosises pop up in between and than these are the ones followed. Nobody has the time
to check out the mistakes to the bitter end, why he meant to see this or that,
etc. This is the reason I expressed my doubts. Thank you for keeping up.
Kind regards, Dr.medic. Viorel V. Bucur (www.dr-bucur.com).

Dear colleagues

All you have said it's true on both sides

It is difficult to state, without a controlled trial, if the gallstones went
away or if they never have been there

If we see how gallstones are formed:

"Cholesterol is rendered soluble in bile by aggregation with water-soluble bile
salts and water insoluble lecithins, both of which act as detergents.
When cholesterol concentrations exceed the solubilizing capacity of bile
(supersaturation), cholesterol can no longer remain dispersed and nucleates into
solid cholesterol monohydrate crystals (later stones)"

we can see that they appear when there is a disbalance

if we medicate the patient and restore the balance, from a theoretical view we
can not only prevent but also dissolve the stone

but the final answer (if the above is true or false) will be given by a trial.

I hope this comment is useful.

Sincerely

Guillermo Pagura
-----Mensaje original-----
De: VBLUES@aol.com [mailto:VBLUES@aol.com]
Enviado el: viernes, 16 de julio de 2004 5:57
Para: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: Re: [Minutus] Re: gallstone in homeopathy
In einer eMail vom 15.07.04 19:45:58 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt
j.lucas@ntlworld.com:

>
16.7.4.
Still to vague, I am sorry. Only scans (you mean echography or MRT?) actually
would be precise enough. The rest isn't. It might be but not specific. What
do you mean by "endoscopic"? ERCP? There are many people with normal blood
tests with stones and viceversa, for example.
I mean yo have to understand, that when making the statement "the patient has
gallstones" or "the patient had gallstones" - this has to be backed by
something.
"Pain in the right shoulder" is by no way enough, it comes like that in
colics but also in other diseases, but only then and it is not the routine
thing.
The routine thing is different. But this is something else I will not
elaborate
here. So the jaundice.
There is a difference when you have a skin-case getting better, something you
can prove by just looking or some nose-bleeding or some menstruations problem
or whatever you name it (fever, diarrhoe, flu, etc.) and something like this
gallstones or comparable, which is "inside" and difficult to confirm or
control. There is a big difference -THIS is what I mean. If THESE kind of
statements
are adequately backed
by adequate, undoubted, information.
Independent from our discussion here, you have to know that there is a
enormous amount of wrong diagnosises in this field even in allopathy, which is
much
more precise due to the modern gear available, including echography and even
computertomography. Both are still indirect methods. Even experienced doctors
make mistakes sometimes, believing they see something which after that -
eventually in operation, so directly seen - proves to have been completely
wrong.
Usually these things are not followed up and proved, because other
diagnosises pop up in between and than these are the ones followed. Nobody has
the time
to check out the mistakes to the bitter end, why he meant to see this or that,
etc. This is the reason I expressed my doubts. Thank you for keeping up.
Kind regards, Dr.medic. Viorel V. Bucur (www.dr-bucur.com).
Clinical Guidance for Homeopaths and Students of Homeopathy!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Guillermo-
But this discussion is going nowhere. To say that all gall stones
cases we had were wrong diagnosis is insulting our intelligence and
all the specialists who made the diagnosis before us and before us.
Forget it - if you do not have access to the latest diagnostic tools
at your disposal your diagnosis can never be trusted.

Probably for all we know NONE of the homeopathy doctors before us had
ever cured even a single case of any known pathology. Creatures like
Dr.Boericke and Dr.Lilienthal who wrote clincal repertories and
works on Therapeutics, long before even ultrasound existed lied
extensively throughtout their works. Since Boericke probably depended
on other people's experiences for writing his work, there must have
been a dedicated bunch of liars out there to put wrong clinical
experiences just for the purpose of hood winking hard working
homeopaths like Dr.Bucur. Think how lucky we are to have people like
him to guide us from being led astray by the likes of Dr.Clarke into
that abyss of unproven claims.

So remember Homeopathy is capable of curing only Flu and Diarrhoea.
Is diarrhoea, fever, nose bleed a diagnosis? What would I know? Any
way give me a functional case or a patient who I can diagnose by
seeing in a restaurant or in the road and diagnose immediately "Oh I
found a Medorrhinum, Here goes a Phos, This is a Pulsatilla going
towards a Sepia state, look this is a Thuja because I do not trust
this guy would pay me" or whatever. This is TRUE homeopathy because
this is how Hahnemann and Kent practised. We shall continue to do
so...
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Guillermo Pagura"
wrote:
gallstones went
soluble bile
detergents.
bile
nucleates into
theoretical view we
by a trial.
Sommerzeit schreibt
MRT?) actually
specific. What
normal blood
patient has
backed by
that in
the routine
not
something you
menstruations problem
something like this
confirm or
kind of
is a
allopathy, which is
echography and even
experienced doctors
that -
completely
followed. Nobody has
this or that,
keeping up.
Homoeopathy and
regarding the
read or
and/or email
remains with
members be
or other
with the
digest.
----------
Service.

In einer eMail vom 19.07.04 04:50:16 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt
hahnemannian2002@yahoo.com:

<< Thanks Guillermo-
But this discussion is going nowhere. To say that all gall stones
cases we had were wrong diagnosis is insulting our intelligence and
all the specialists who made the diagnosis before us and before us.
Forget it - if you do not have access to the latest diagnostic tools
at your disposal your diagnosis can never be trusted.
Probably for all we know NONE of the homeopathy doctors before us had
ever cured even a single case of any known pathology. Creatures like
Dr.Boericke and Dr.Lilienthal who wrote clincal repertories and
works on Therapeutics, long before even ultrasound existed lied
extensively throughtout their works. Since Boericke probably depended
on other people's experiences for writing his work, there must have
been a dedicated bunch of liars out there to put wrong clinical
experiences just for the purpose of hood winking hard working
homeopaths like Dr.Bucur. Think how lucky we are to have people like
him to guide us from being led astray by the likes of Dr.Clarke into
that abyss of unproven claims.
So remember Homeopathy is capable of curing only Flu and Diarrhoea.
Is diarrhoea, fever, nose bleed a diagnosis? What would I know? Any
way give me a functional case or a patient who I can diagnose by
seeing in a restaurant or in the road and diagnose immediately "Oh I
found a Medorrhinum, Here goes a Phos, This is a Pulsatilla going
towards a Sepia state, look this is a Thuja because I do not trust
this guy would pay me" or whatever. This is TRUE homeopathy because
this is how Hahnemann and Kent practised. We shall continue to do
so...
19.7.4.
I'm answering you for the last time because you are not able to accept
critics, obviously considering yourself much to good, even perfect to be criticized
or to give an polite and especially adequate answer.
Nobody insulted you and nobody tried to guide you, you must be able to guide
yourself or get lost.
When you are making the statement that somebody has/had gallstones, you HAVE
to be able to pinpoint accurately the diagnosis, which obviously you can' t!
So if you can' t, you are operating on suspicion/fantasy/supposition and this
is not serious, this is witchcraft not medicine, eventually coupled with
commerce, so even worst! Or maybe you have the capability to see "through" the
patient and see the stones like some homeopathic Buddha or what? Did you ever hear
of Hippocrates? It starts with "H", like Hahnemann ...
You saw too many films, indian filmindustry is coming strong ...
Even the great classics made a lot of mistakes, no matter what their name
was. They THOUGHT things were like this, but we TODAY know meanwhile, or at least
some of us, that they were wrong in many aspects, fortunately/unfortunately.
It does not make sense - it is even prohibited - to treat a patient like it
was used to 200 years ago - every patient has the RIGHT to be treated in the
best way possible known NOW!!! This law is even ABOVE homeopathy, for sure above
yours!
The last remarks about my work I will not comment, you are and they are not
worth the time and would be a waste of electrical power. You understood nothing
out of them. How could you?
You should actually come over here or to Switzerland and learn some serious
homeopathy, not this dubious statements/stuff you are proferring and inducing
into error the other ones, many of them beginners. You'd absolutely have no
chance in these countries - eventually being withdrawn the right to practice.
This would happen in every serious country. In Germany, people like you would be
even arrested or still sought after with international arrest warrant. Just to
your knowledge. Many cases ... This kind of "homeopaths" promising patients
they would heal their mama-carcinoma or gallstones or jaundice or whatever and
then the family of the patient - already dead very fast, of course - sued
them.
THIS kind of homeopathy and statements ruins our image in the eyes of
allopaths and the scientific comunity and actually barres this method for getting
much more attention than it actually deserves today and much more money for
further research.
So ... back to school, back to reality and especially to general school for
the manners and homeopathic/medicine school for the rest ...
Up to now, I am TELLING you to leave my name out of your comments. I hope I
made myself clear enough. If not, you will NOT get a second chance. Dr. medic
Viorel V. Bucur (www.dr-bucur.com)