Minutus

Steve,

Thank you so much for your well phrased question about the concept of THE remedy. I've always wondered that, too. In Joy's case, I think the Teucrium seemed well indicated (although I originally proposed Sepia), since the patient herself was not actually uncomfortable with any of the other aspects of the situation -- therefore I was wrong to consider them symptoms ande not to restrict my thinking to the sensations the patient identified as symptoms. .

I think the answer actually probably lies in the many times we give a remedy that seems well indicated, and it acts to a certain extent (sometimes signficantly) but doesn't complete the job. The patient improves and feels better, and when s/he comes back for a follow-up, we see better what the actual treatment needs to be as a second prescription.

I'd be interested in thoughts of others on this point, because in fact, as you point out, when we read someone else's "cured case," we don't get this picture of possible alternative remedies that may have been very helpful as well.

I also thank Joy for sharing that case with us, because it did exemplify an important principle of treating what the patient identifies as symptoms and not making a "constitutional" case out of every consultation.

Rosemary

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Dear Joy,

Thanks so much for sharing that case. I found the discussion that ensued to be very enlightening -- a great learning experience. And, as always, your explanations have been really helpful in that learning process.

) Rosemary

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But (lookin' for some nits to pick!) what about the example of Conium, of
which part of the mental picture is that they have a sort of... what was the
word used... withdrawal, something like hardness, that (words from my notes)
"they are rather proud of" -- and yet it is not a good thing...

I think it would be easy to find other examples of where the patient is "not
uncomfortable" with things that are *definitely* part of their pathology,
that *will* be removed by the remedy they need. Especially if part of the
pathology has to do with e.g. apathy, separation, resignation, etc.

In my understanding, it is *quite* a mistake to simply take the patient's
word for "what needs to be cured" -- part of the paradox and difficulty of
chronic disease (as opposed to acute) is that they (and their VF) *don't
know* what needs to be cured. To a degree they may, of course; but if
knowing "what needs to be cured" were as simple as asking the patients, then
homeopaths would not need homeopats -- right????

Shannon
on 9/1/03 1:03 PM, Rosemary Hyde at rosemaryhyde@mindspring.com wrote:

I agree, Wendy! Looks like my search for the "deep" answer led to missing
the "easy" one!

But on the other hand, "what is to be cured" is often not an easy question.
And if I were asked, is it more important to cure nasal polyps, or to cure
suppression, depression, just waiting for life to be over -- well, the
polyps wouldn't look to me like such a big deal, frankly.

I dunno, did she sound healthy to you???
Shannon
on 9/1/03 12:31 PM, Wendy Howard at wendy@rachan.worldonline.co.uk wrote:

Dear Joy

Thanks for that; it's interesting that this Rx has "desire to stretch" just
like a cat!

regards
Patricia

Shannon wrote:
question.

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's a judgement
call we can make. It's not part of the contract. She didn't come to see Joy
about any suppression or depression (and Joy really had to work some to get
any of this information out of her). She came about the polyps. So IMO the
homeopath's job is to look amongst the remedies featuring nasal polyps for
the one that most closely matches her state (which may or may not include
her mental symptoms), not amongst the remedies featuring her mental state
for one which may or may not cover the polyps. To take the latter course is
to superimpose your own judgement about what needs to be cured over the
patient's.

If she decides to come back after her polyps have been cured for her other
"problems" (if indeed she regards them as problems?), *then* it would be
appropriate to address them.

Regards
Wendy

Well, what you say makes sense, esp. with regard to this case -- she wasn't
asking for other help (as you said), and wasn't evidently suffering,
*except* from the polyps, and plus (and maybe most importantly) the other
information (I mean, the speculative "information" that didn't emphasize the
polyps) wasn't really there, without reaching and guessing and what-not. So
given all that, I agree with all you've said --

*except* I continue to be unbothered by the idea of the practitioner
"superimpos[ing] [his/her] own judgement about what needs to be cured over
the patient's" -- so long as the patient's perceived need is taken well into
account. The "objective observer" needs to come into play, and that means
*our* judgment... But I guess that will remain a judgment call to be made
individually in every case.

Cheers,
Shannon
on 9/1/03 5:52 PM, Wendy Howard at wendy@rachan.worldonline.co.uk wrote:

Dear Shannon, I should have given more about the follow ups but wanted to
concentrate on the 'case' as a way of homing in on that same old thing -
what needs to be cured. In this case it was just the nasal polyp (for her)
but we as Homeopaths usually recognise other aspects of a case that, being
part of the totality, will also be touched as well.

I think overall she has been contented with her life and it wasn't for me to
judge otherwise. Perhaps she was just being totally realistic at 80 as to
how many years she has left. The polyp and its accompanying sx were all she
wanted curing, and we have to go with that - this is the first clue, the
first gift, as to what one has to concentrate on - the presenting complaint.
It just happens that Teucrium not only has nasal polyps but this need for
excitation, this nervousness which she largely gets from her thrillers and
spy mysteries.

And there were only subtle changes in her demeanour on the first follow up
and much more so in the second (not sure if I will be seeing her again) -
she was seated much more comfortably and there was virtually no fidgeting.
But nothing else appeared to be evolving and maybe there is no need for it
to - it is not for me/us to judge her life.

I think that is as deep as it gets but that is deep enough.

'Nutshelling' cases is an interesting approach especially if one gets bogged
down time and again with the emotional and mental aspects of cases which
ultimately lead you down the garden path to nowhere. Try it some time. BTW I
thought you were going to post a case whereby we could perhaps attempt to do
this 'bare essential' approach? I hope so.

Best wishes as always, Joy

www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
on 9/1/03 4:36 PM, Bob&Shannon at shannonnelson@tds.net wrote:

Thanks Joy,
This was fascinating!!!
I would see this is another example of where we need flexibility in
casetaking (scolding myself with this one, as I sure missed the boat), and
ability to "go where the case is". Altho I didn't have much time to try on
this one, I'm pretty sure I'd have "never" made it to Teucr, because I was
focusing on trying to make "something out of nothing" in paucity of the
overall case. I didn't even *try* repping the sxs of the polyp itself,
assuming it was a trivial "effect" of the "constitutional" case.

But I think this is also an example of where (perhaps, I'll have to read
more on the remedy) a remedy that's thought of as "local" is actually not,
but is simply not fully enough known (proved, etc.). (E.g. we should
perhaps(?) pencil in teucr for foot-tapping and "fiddling"/restless fingers?

I also like Steve's thoughts, that perhaps some of the other suggestions
would also have helped. Maybe that's a question that could be better
guessed at (love those guesses...) by looking at her *long*-term response to
Teucr -- has it acted "deeply" for her, on things other than the polyps?

This I'd love to hear more from you on in any case -- did the Teucr make
changes in her M/E situation? As you noted, her remark that "My live is
almost over..." etc., did not sound like a particularly healthy one. I'd
love to hear more about just what has changed after the Teucr -- does she
shift, fiddle and tap less? Is she more cheerful, is she finding and
pursuing any more interests, anything else???

Delightful case -- thank you so much!
Shannon
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Hi Wendy
Yes, I think that we should treat what the individual presents to us. I
sometimes ask the question "what do you feel we should focus on" when I have
someone who is off-loading lots and lots of illnesses.

On the other hand we have to be careful that the 'presenting' symptoms are
not an easy way of moving on to the 'real' problems. 'Presenting Behaviour'
is a counselling concept. It is how people start to talk to you,
concentrating on something that is easier for them to talk about, and
gradually easing their way to the more important, but for them more
difficult subject. This happens for us. I saw someone recently for insomnia;
but underneath her inability to sleep was quite a severe and long-standing
depression.

I suppose we have to be good listeners, try hard not to embark on great
Kentian journeys, and check with the individual what it is they want us to
do.

Steve Scrutton
Homeopath

"Homeopathy is a safe, gentle and effective medical therapy"

Thanks Joy,

I definitely can understand the value in simply handling what she asked to
have handled! (Also that, at 80, perhaps her remark was simply
realistic...) As much as anything, I was simply curious... Anyway, I will
certainly remember this remedy now!!!!

About the case I'm going to post -- yes, I'm still planning to, and *very*
eager for thoughts on it. I guess the biggest problem has been time to
think thru a mass of information that I've been feeling overwhelmed by (it's
my son; not a good start, I know!). But with school starting tomorrow, I do
hope to get something up on it soon, and hope that it could provide a good
"forestry" exercise (y'know, "thinning the trees"?) for others as well as
myself...)

Anyway, I guess this (cured cases and fitting them to mat.med. etc.) is just
what I need to focus on for a while, so I am really appreciating your
offerings!

Thanks again,
Shannon
on 9/1/03 12:05 PM, Joy Lucas at joy.lucas@ntlworld.com wrote: