Minutus

Three other independent methods come up with similar estimates for total hydrogen atoms.
(Wikipedia lists them)
you mean without chucking out most of the result at each dilution as we do in homepathy....
what are you diluting it with? Water? Where from, in that quantity?

Note that the average clathrate is 100 water molecules:-)
On the contrary, ALL the atoms of hydrogen would still be there (10^80 of them - some in cathrates of the water you failed to provide - with other clathrates empty.

Your arithmetic is a bit faulty. The atom estimate is in hydrogen atoms and we dilute in water molecules - apples and watermelons confused.
And again we get to the VOLUME rule of homeopathy.
We dilute the universe amount of apples in far fewer watermelons and pretend it does not matter that they are different sizes. 99 universes worth of watermelons for one universe of apples.

SO we are back to the volume issue as opposed to the atom or unit issue.
Some remedies wil have huge units like elephants, and be diluted in watermelons - needing a lot of watermelons relative to elephants.
Others will have tiny units like apples and stil be diluted in watermelons, needing a lot of apples and not so many watermelons.

RATIOS of units in homeopathy are all over the place becasue volume is used and not atoms or any kind of comparable units (no Avogadro rules can apply).
No becasue we do not dilute remedies without discarding most of the result.
And becasue clathrates retain whatever we start with:-)

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

You have also been told clearly that Avogadro’s number does not apply to Homeopathy, so why do you keep going on about it? What you are saying is not new to us, we have all considered this kind of thing during our training.

If we ignore for the moment that Roger's case is miasmatic requiring an antimiasmatic remedy, is the Chocolate used for the proving made with or without milk?
There could be distinct rubrics for Dark Chocolate, dairy free vs. Milk Chocolate.
Susan

it is probably not working because he forgot to calculate how many moles of milk is in his dose of chocolate. so before he gets his script, susan, he needs to let you know how many moles of chocolate he is consuming each time and if milk chocolate, how many moles per mole of chocolate.
just for fun, roger, let us know the answer.
vicki
www.LabelGMOFlorida.com
Join us on facebook and twitter
Working to label GMO foods

--------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 17, 2015, 11:12 AM
You have also been told
clearly that Avogadro’s number does not apply to
Homeopathy, so why do you keep going on about it? What you
are saying is not new to us, we have all considered this
kind of thing during our training.
It seems to me the
Chocolate is not working!
If we ignore for the moment that Roger's case is
miasmatic requiring an antimiasmatic remedy, is the
Chocolate used for the proving made with or without milk?
There could be distinct rubrics for Dark Chocolate,
dairy free vs. Milk Chocolate.
Susan

let me restate that another way...
you did not explain how you believe Avogadro’s number is related in any way to Homeopathy. It is just the number of "things" per mole of any given substance.
Avogadro measured in moles to determine molecular weights/atomic weights. I am assuming at that time it was pretty difficult to separate out one hydrogen atom and put it on a scale...(jmo)
the only way to relate the two, imo, is you can have, and weigh, one mole of a homeopathic remedy in pellet form. which just means you bought WAY too many of them
vicki
www.LabelGMOFlorida.com
Join us on facebook and twitter
Working to label GMO foods

--------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 16, 2015, 8:37 PM
Let us say
that there is 100 X 10^27 molecules in the flask (or
whatever they use to potentize.) The first C dilution
there will be only 1 X 10^27 molecules in the flask because
it is diluted a hundred to 1. That is why it is called C,
rather than D or X, which would be a 10 to 1 dilution. The
second C dilution there will be only 10^25 molecules in
flask. Each dilution is divided by a 100. The third C
dilution there will be only 10^23 molecules in the flask.
If we keep doing that for a 30C remedy, eventually we will
get to 10^1 molecules, which equal 10 molecules, and the
next dilution will give us 10^0, which equals 1 molecule.
What happens next? We can't have less than zero
molecules, so we start talking about what the probability is
that the poor remaining molecule got tossed or stayed in the
flask. With 30C, there would be 1 chance in 1,000,000 that
that poor little molecule stayed in the flask and did not
get tossed after the last dilution.
What happens with 200C? There would be one
chance in 10^373 that the last molecule remained in the
flask. There is simply no imaginable universe where this
would happen. I hope that this is not a problem for you or
anyone else. It is certainly not a problem for me. I
have confidence in my 45 years of homeopathic experience,
220 years of millions of people's homeopathic
experience, 185 years of the British Royal family's
homeopathic experience. I just chalk it up to us not fully
understanding life and the creation. If I limit reality to
our physical world, then we have a problem. I
don't.
Sincerely,
Roger Bird
To:
minutus@yahoogroups.com
From:
minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan
2015 16:31:11 -0800
Subject: RE: [Minutus]
Astrology vs homeopathy
but you did not explain how you believe Avogadro’s
number is related in any way to Homeopathy. It is just the
number of "things" per mole of any given
substance.
vicki
www.LabelGMOFlorida.com
Join us on facebook and twitter
Working to label GMO foods
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 1/16/15, Roger B rogerbird2@hotmail.com [minutus]
wrote:
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 16, 2015, 3:40 PM
"Avogadro’s
number, number
of units in one mole
of any substance (defined as its molecular
weight in grams), equal to 6.02214129 ×
1023. The units may be electrons,
atoms,
ions,
or molecules,
depending on the nature of the substance and the
character
of the reaction (if any)."
I took that from Encyclopaedia Britannica.
The
reason that sceptics keep mentioning that number is
that
the
probability of a single atom still being present at a
dilution of 30C is
roughly 1 in 10 to the 37th power or 1 in
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.
And,
of course, 200C would be 1 in 1 followed by 377 zeros.
Even if it were a physical energy that is trapped in the
remedy that was being prepared, it would still be reduced
by
degrees exactly like the numbers typed above. Plus, a
physical energy would dissipate, like heat from an
oven.
Also, the explanation of physical energy or physical
atoms
does not explain why the remedies get STRONGER the more
they
are potentized.
The only explanation that
works for me is that there is some transcendental
"energy" that is extracted out of the original
substance that is the result of the potentization. No
purely physical explanation makes any sense, whether
that
explanation is atoms or energy. And when I say
"energy", I mean the physical energy whose
existence is not scorned by physical scientists who make
physical things happen, like bridges, automobiles,
nuclear
power plants, etc.
I admit that this
explanation will not settle down the skeptics. But the
skeptics are already on the warpath concerning
homeopathy,
and honesty forces me to admit to no other explanation
other
than this one.
It is
true that this may be testable, but not using physically
dead devices like volt meters, etc. Dogs or bacteria
or
humans can test this "energy", but non-living,
non-conscious devices never will.
This is my position, and I
am sticking to it.
Roger Bird

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Hi,

I tried to send this as an independent title and it did not go through. Happened many times so something systemic must be wrong. Anyway, this is not an exact reply to the discussion, but related.

I either "get" a modality or I don't. I get homeopathy. The literature makes sense to me, I can use the tools, and applications of those methods are effective. Homeopaths like Doctor Roz Paul Herscu, Will Taylor, George Dimitriadis or George Vithoulkas suggest meaningful methods that I "get". These are the people I look up to. Even Five element and analysis makes sense and is useful.

Gobbledygook talk about science is not in the least bit helpful to me. Mainly, I don't get it. I am very practical and I'm interested in what leads to better treatment. I'm not offended if I don't get it. I have certain predilections and that's just fine. Other people have their own predilections and I have no problems and I have no problem with individuality.

About astrology, I don't really get it. I know I react strongly to the phases of the moon, and I use an acupuncture method that uses Kepler's calculations of the orbits of the planets. The Mythology of the planets seems to fit universal human themes and they are useful for this methodology. But, I have never been able to tune into the calculations of astrology. I don't get it, but someday I would like to get it. Until then, I certainly am not going to argue about its scientific value relative to homeopathy.

I have a very good imagination. So, I can make tarot card selections meaningful. This "high" imaginative ability also makes me very distrustful of purely intellectual interpretations. As a result, methods of it analysis in homeopathy are very important to me. I don't want choosing a remedy to be like choosing a tarot card. If astrological calculations made the same kind of good logical sense that homeopathy makes, I would be much more impressed. My guess is that I have just never met the right teacher in astrology. This problem has nothing to do with the science that the pharmaceutical companies use. Each system has its own logic. You have to "get" that logic, or you can even talk about it.

That said, for a group devoted to homeopathy, it would make much more sense to me to be discussing the relative values of different analytical methods in homeopathy. I have no idea why we don't focus on homeopathy. I guess I'm just odd.

It doesn't matter if volume or molecules are used. The matter (excuse the pun) inside of the volume is molecules. There will be no molecules left after a dilution of 30C, and thus there will be no "volume" left of the original substance.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 01:25:09 -0800
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy
But that is invalid in ALL cases in homepathy.
Volume is used - not molecules. Nobody knows how many molecules or various mixtures of substanes were in the tincture of any homeopathic remedy.

In most cases there is no such thing as a molecule - only mixtures of multiple types of molecule but never a measured number in any case. So you could not sit and count out the molecules of Pulsatilla or snake venom or whateevr even if you wanted to. THAT is the main reason why Avo's number is not valid. The other is that even in cases where molecules COULD be counted, they NEVER are in homeopathy.

I think you also forget that the SIZE of a molecule varies enormously, making nonsense of any comparions of remedies involving dilutions, even if homeopathy always started with molecules, which it never does.

It's not valid to say "IF there were ...then such and such) because that is NEVER the case.

It's a pure invention. You can not start a theory worth anythig, with a pure and invalid invention.
You need to start with something valid:-)

PS Avogadro knew what he was talking about - what HE said was valid.
But you are not using it. It cannot be used for any remedies of any potency.

Namaste,
Irene (still laughing)

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I see your unwillingness to accept my point as a clinging to materialism.

I see your point with the succussing. But the "energy" retained by the water is not physical. Otherwise it is difficult explain why it does not dissipate. An homeopathic remedy can stay viable for 10 years or forever, perhaps. That makes absolutely no sense when it comes to physical energy. The succussing also does not explain why the remedies get stronger.

Your use the words "potentize" and "potential energy" as though there was a reasonable relationship between them. I don't understand that at all.

So, if I insist upon sticking to my perspective and not being swayed by your ideas, then this is a defect in my constitution? I could say the same thing about you, except of course I wouldn't know which remedy to recommend.

And, by the way, physical scientists will sneer at you, whether you stick to your ideas or accept my idea. So, I doubt that it matters. In fact, I think that this entire argument doesn't matter. I am unsure what benefit there is to either perspective. I use my perspective thusly:

"Materialism doesn't disprove homeopathy. Homoeopathy disproves disproves materialism."

I have written that numerous times in comment sections of news articles about homeopathy.

I think that you prefer your perspective because you are afraid of spirituality or mysticism or transcendentalism or magic and want to seem "scientific" in a science dominated world. But I think that this use of the word "science" is nothing more than materialism, an unprovable assumption.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 09:31:38 +0000
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy
Dear Roger
In your realm of “This is my position, and I am sticking to it.” You seem not to have understood what anyone on this site is advising you.
During potentisation we dilute and importantly SUCCUSS! It is the latter that adds energy to the substance.

You can try this with bottles of extracts of mint of other perfumed liquids. Have two bottles, success one and compare the perfume with the unsuccussed one.
There are many sources and types of energy in the Universe that we know little about. The exact nature of the energy in homeopathic remedies is one of them. But did Marconi know the exact nature of Radio waves when he discovered them via his apparatus? No – but he learnt how to use them!
Privately, I tried to explain to you that for example potential energy does not dissipate. In the succession process, we seem to add to the ‘potential’ energy of the remedy being prepared (hence it is called a potency of 30C etc) – It has power to do work. We also see this when the remedy is plussed without dilution.
So the fact that there may be less and less of the original material as we dilute and dilute seems to be irrelevant, its essence and energy is increased. And such potencies are found to be distinguishable from one remedy to another.
You have also been told clearly that Avogadro’s number does not apply to Homeopathy, so why do you keep going on about it? What you are saying is not new to us, we have all considered this kind of thing during our training.
It seems to me the Chocolate is not working!

Rgds

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 17 January 2015 01:38
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy
Let us say that there is 100 X 10^27 molecules in the flask (or whatever they use to potentize.) The first C dilution there will be only 1 X 10^27 molecules in the flask because it is diluted a hundred to 1. That is why it is called C, rather than D or X, which would be a 10 to 1 dilution. The second C dilution there will be only 10^25 molecules in flask. Each dilution is divided by a 100. The third C dilution there will be only 10^23 molecules in the flask. If we keep doing that for a 30C remedy, eventually we will get to 10^1 molecules, which equal 10 molecules, and the next dilution will give us 10^0, which equals 1 molecule. What happens next? We can't have less than zero molecules, so we start talking about what the probability is that the poor remaining molecule got tossed or stayed in the flask. With 30C, there would be 1 chance in 1,000,000 that that poor little molecule stayed in the flask and did not get tossed after the last dilution.

What happens with 200C? There would be one chance in 10^373 that the last molecule remained in the flask. There is simply no imaginable universe where this would happen. I hope that this is not a problem for you or anyone else. It is certainly not a problem for me. I have confidence in my 45 years of homeopathic experience, 220 years of millions of people's homeopathic experience, 185 years of the British Royal family's homeopathic experience. I just chalk it up to us not fully understanding life and the creation. If I limit reality to our physical world, then we have a problem. I don't.

Sincerely,
Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:31:11 -0800
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy
but you did not explain how you believe Avogadro’s number is related in any way to Homeopathy. It is just the number of "things" per mole of any given substance.
vicki

www.LabelGMOFlorida.com
Join us on facebook and twitter
Working to label GMO foods

--------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 16, 2015, 3:40 PM
"Avogadro’s
number, number
of units in one mole
of any substance (defined as its molecular
weight in grams), equal to 6.02214129 ×
1023. The units may be electrons,
atoms,
ions,
or molecules,
depending on the nature of the substance and the character
of the reaction (if any)."

I took that from Encyclopaedia Britannica.

The
reason that sceptics keep mentioning that number is that
the
probability of a single atom still being present at a
dilution of 30C is
roughly 1 in 10 to the 37th power or 1 in
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. And,
of course, 200C would be 1 in 1 followed by 377 zeros.
Even if it were a physical energy that is trapped in the
remedy that was being prepared, it would still be reduced by
degrees exactly like the numbers typed above. Plus, a
physical energy would dissipate, like heat from an oven.
Also, the explanation of physical energy or physical atoms
does not explain why the remedies get STRONGER the more they
are potentized.

The only explanation that
works for me is that there is some transcendental
"energy" that is extracted out of the original
substance that is the result of the potentization. No
purely physical explanation makes any sense, whether that
explanation is atoms or energy. And when I say
"energy", I mean the physical energy whose
existence is not scorned by physical scientists who make
physical things happen, like bridges, automobiles, nuclear
power plants, etc.

I admit that this
explanation will not settle down the skeptics. But the
skeptics are already on the warpath concerning homeopathy,
and honesty forces me to admit to no other explanation other
than this one.
It is
true that this may be testable, but not using physically
dead devices like volt meters, etc. Dogs or bacteria or
humans can test this "energy", but non-living,
non-conscious devices never will.
This is my position, and I
am sticking to it.
Roger Bird

I don't eat moles of chocolate. However, I am very fond of the chocolate bunnies.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:16:21 -0800
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy

it is probably not working because he forgot to calculate how many moles of milk is in his dose of chocolate. so before he gets his script, susan, he needs to let you know how many moles of chocolate he is consuming each time and if milk chocolate, how many moles per mole of chocolate.
just for fun, roger, let us know the answer.
vicki

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I don't understand why this Avogadro's number is such a problem for you people. It doesn't matter if it is physical energy, molecules, big molecules, watermelon sized molecules, volumes, cathrates (spelling?), etc. The only thing that seems to make any sense to me is what Soroush said. Every time we succuss, we add energy to an already present energy. But that energy is not physical. It is subtle.

I use the Avogadro number argument to discount the physical explanations for homeopathy because I have a better explanation: transcendental or spiritual energy. Everything has a spiritual energy, from rocks to people. The succussion process separates and loosens the spiritual energy of the gold or pulsatilla from the physical substance and puts it into the water. The succussion also adds to the spiritual energy.

When the person takes the remedy, this allows for the spiritual energy to pass right through their physical body and get to the innate inner healing power of the individual and to "tickle" the inner healing power to respond.

Roger Bird
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To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:28:19 -0800
Subject: RE: [Minutus] Astrology vs homeopathy

let me restate that another way...
you did not explain how you believe Avogadro’s number is related in any way to Homeopathy. It is just the number of "things" per mole of any given substance.
Avogadro measured in moles to determine molecular weights/atomic weights. I am assuming at that time it was pretty difficult to separate out one hydrogen atom and put it on a scale...(jmo)
the only way to relate the two, imo, is you can have, and weigh, one mole of a homeopathic remedy in pellet form. which just means you bought WAY too many of them

vicki

That's like saying whether liquid or solid does not matter and you can measure water with a ruler:-)

Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
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