Clathrates

[Lynn Cremona]

it is a MS PowerPoint document

if you paste http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/beyond_molecule/
in your browser's address box

you should see the following
Index of /~bdj10/beyond_molecule
* Parent Directory
* bm.pdf
* bm.ppt
* bm.pptx

click on the first link (pdf) and save to your desktop, then open it with Adobe Acrobat
or
click on the second link (ppt) save to your desktop and open with MS Powerpoint
________________________________
--
Imagine Peace
http://www.homeopathicsolutions.blogspot.com/

[Shannon Nelson]

My dim thought had been that it is the cage-like structuring *itself* -- structured water -- that is behind homeopathy's effect? And that lower potencies are lower potency because the remaining particles, although they have *begun* the process of structuring the water (shaping the clathrates?), once that is begun, the particles sort of just get in the way.

Tho, why clathrates (or any sort of structured water) should influence the function of the vital force (however we want to describe that), that's just as mysterious to me...

[Healthseeker]

Here is the pdf file itself: (http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/bey ... ule/bm.pdf)
That should work.
Agi
---In minutus@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
Thanks for trying but this link doesn’t work either.
What kind of program file is it?
t
From: Lynn Cremona
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 10:54 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Clathrates

Try
http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/beyond_molecule/

[John R. Benneth]

Dana et al . .
I'm really sorry to say this but I think it's a mirage. Chikramane's transmission electron microscopy (TEM) study is not detecting pieces of the starting material as the authors appear to claim, they're simply detecting the electron signal of the starting material, transferred through hydrogen bonding into aqueous memes, such as clathrates.
If this is hard to understand, then think about magnetic recording tape for a moment. There's of course no material exchange in an analog audio/video recording, in fact there's no material rearrangement of matter, yet when its played back it gives us a realistic representation of what was recorded. It's been demonstrated that water is acting the same way, as an electronic recording medium, recording the electronic signal of solutes in the "circuitry" of its interlocking molecules.
During Hahnemann's time this kind of explanation for the action of highly diluted materials used in homeopathy wouldn't make no sense to anybody. But this is an appropriate analogue.
Well, then, the skeptics say, why doesn't water maintain a memory of everything that's passed through it? And the answer to that is just like video tape, it get's erased by the next recording.
Josephson mentions this in his Heretical Science lecture:
http://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/1422061
But Chikramane doesn't recognize any of this. Chikramane leads us to believe that particulate matter from the original starting material is still, somehow, magically, "asymptotically," hanging around, and that this heterogenous material component is biologically effective.
Note that Chikramane makes no mention of the "orthodox" theory of liquid aqueous structuring as presented by Roy. The little black blobs you see in the TEM pictures are probably hydro-colloids surrounding silica ions or chips.
I might add that I have the highest regard for Iris Bell, but on the Chikramane review one I think she may have missed the mark.
Here's a poem I wrote that may apply
Don't Go Lookin'

Some say it’s true
Some say it’s not
You don’t go lookin’ for a gold mine
When there’s diggin to be done
in the one you got
Don’t go and roam
When you should be sittin’
Stay at home
And stick to your knittin’
To some it comes easy
To some it comes hard
The diamonds you’re lookin for
Are in your back yard
Tell me its true
Tell me it’s not
You don’t go lookin’ for a gold mine
When there’s diggin to be done
in the one you got

John Benneth
In a message dated 9/28/2013 8:04:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dullman@igc.org writes:
EXTRAORDINARY MEDICINE

John Benneth, Homeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com

SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

Love people, expect them to love you back.

[Irene de Villiers]

Not MY model - I'm reporting from what research says.
Did you read abstracts only?
REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Hennie Duits]

I like the analogy with a tape recording – it’s the magnetic energy
patterns that do the trick.
If you understand everything ‘existing’ as (manifestations of) dynamic,
vibrating energy patterns, having some sort of rhythm, maybe succussion
increases the amplitude of, let’s say, it’s ‘sinus’ (or of each, or of
some, sinus(ses) forming a complex).
Op 29-9-2013 6:35, jrbenneth@aol.com schreef:

[Roger B]

My inner Occam is discombobulated over any attempt to force a materialistic explanation for homeopathy. For one thing, how does the clathrates change the lactose pellets?

For me, homeopathy disproves materialism.

Another way of looking at things is that we, the world of modern science, keep trying to find out the reality of things by looking at the smaller and smaller and still yet smaller. Perhaps looking at the bigger might be a better idea.

However, didn't Hahnemann say that the vital force was invisible and transcendental? I am almost sure that he said that. I'm saying it.

If this is the case, then what moves the vital force can very easily be invisible, not perceptible to the eye.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: furryboots@icehouse.net
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 06:44:26 -0700
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Clathrates
This is the part he understands that a lot of folks are still not getting - that the clathrates are formed FIRST
...(in response to presence of a guest-shape molecule - OR - in response to presence of an already formed clathrate from such a guest)
- and that the guest compounds become inclusions SECOND - after the clathrate (or actually many many clathrates are) already formed. Only SOME clathrates get inclusions - the rest remain empty.
So - The clathrate is NOT formed around the guest. The guest is attracted into the already formed clathrate.
There are some clues:
The larger the guest, the more readily clathrates are formed at normal temperatures.
Pressure encourages their formation.
They DO form more easily in dilute solution (per research but I dunno why).
Possibly the shock-pressure of succussion does encourage clathrate formation.
However it seems to be true.

Something weird is going on with temperature - or rather it is not going on where it is expected to be occurring with clathrates. Per Russian research this year, there is an adiabatic component (transfer of energy without a temperature change) in repulsive clathrates (those that push each other away) and a corresponding negative thermal elasticity. These characteristics are being used for dissipation, accumulation, and transformation of large amount of energy in small volumes of working chambers.

It then gets involved with phonons (like oscillations or waves- or "collective excitation in a periodic elastic arrangement").....

But this is for me only a clue of where to look next - no conclusion or direct homeopathy connection comes to mind presently.
It says there is more to learn, but the adiabatic issue is an odd one and relates to independence from temperature for larger clathrates at some less frigid levels:-)

Can't be long before we get ALL the details:-)
............Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

The entire universe has matierial as well as (interchangeabe) energy aspects, so why not homeopathy?
They are just stored there. Clathrates are stable structures, so I presume they do nto fall apart just because they are on lactose storage medium. The electromagnetic oscillations of clathrates that occur - specific to the original substance - are still there.
You can prove that by holding a glass vial of a remedy against your skin - you will soon get proving symptoms. SO the lactose is material but the oscllatons are energy, and it goes through glass.

......Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Roger B]

Irene dear,

(1) If the molecules obey the math we think about when we think of Avogadro's number and which cause such consternation among homeopaths, then why wouldn't clathrates also obey "Avogardo's number law"? Do the Nox Vomica containing clathrates hide at the bottom of the bottle just when we start to pour the mixture out before we next pour in the next round of distilled water.

(2) The kind of energy of which you refer is not the physical, E = MC2, moving cars up and down the freeway kind of energy. This kind of every would also diminish with repeated dilutions. It is inner energy, subjective energy, transcendental energy. It is this failure to distinguish between the two different kinds of energy that I spoke of when I first got on this forum that makes hard science skeptopaths howl in laughter and derision. And if I remember correctly, I received some snickering of derision for saying it from some people on this forum. Saroush would not allow me to use the word magic. It is not the same kind of energy. If this energy can cause a proving through a glass jar, which I completely and utterly believe, it is not the same kind of energy. It is a transcendental energy. If it was a physical energy, then it's ability to work through a glass jar would diminish over time. If it does diminish, I doubt if I am old enough or experienced enough to notice such a reduction of energy.

Transcendental energy or prana or chi or vital force interpenetrates and transcends physical energy. But potentization probably (???) doesn't increase it. We probably loosen it from it's physical vehicle more and more by each potentization, but I could be wrong about this, and I would love to hear counter ideas.

Roger Bird
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: furryboots@icehouse.net
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 10:44:14 -0700
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Clathrates
The entire universe has matierial as well as (interchangeabe) energy aspects, so why not homeopathy?
They are just stored there. Clathrates are stable structures, so I presume they do nto fall apart just because they are on lactose storage medium. The electromagnetic oscillations of clathrates that occur - specific to the original substance - are still there.
You can prove that by holding a glass vial of a remedy against your skin - you will soon get proving symptoms. SO the lactose is material but the oscllatons are energy, and it goes through glass.

......Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

You do not have the right to address me thus
REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."