Minutus

Yes - both are needed for the characteristic symptoms of infectious diseases to develop.

One only has to look at the spread of fungal diseases through plants - or how pests have been controlled by the deliberate introduction of bacterium and viruses.

The control of introduced rabbits in Australia (which had became a destructive pest) by the release of the Myxomatosis virus is one example of this.
________________________________

I haven't left any of your questions unanswered! If you want to repeat them please be quick as I am not lingering here for much longer.

And it IS a discussion about whether microbes are causative of disease, if you now want to extend it to ANY injurious agent that causes the susceptibility of disease to present itself then that is a slightly different discussion, albeit coming from the same angle though.

As for epidemics, the true ones, then that too is another discussion but many epidemics have a trauma, or tragedy or exceptional circumstances that precede them and THAT is causative. Other epidemics that appear to be chronic, i.e. forever present, also have extreme maintaining causes to them but it is they (the maintaining causes) that are causative.

So, microbes would be nothing more than microbes if there were not susceptibility and causative factors (fundamental, exciting, maintaining), that in turn trigger the susceptibility into presentation of sx.

So would you please answer my question about how you accomodate causation into an acute case taking please.

Joy

http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://www.streetcollege.co.uk

BUT... the fungal microbes are NOT the cause as there will always be mitigating circumstances for any epidemic to thrive - unusual weather conditions would be one obvious example

1) First you need the mitigating circumstances, i.e. the real CAUSATION as Hahnemann referred to (F, E, and/or M)

2) Then you need the susceptibility - which is particular to each of us but maybe similar to others at the same time - we can inherit this or it can be acquired through life - this susceptibility is awakened by the cause, the trigger, the mitigating circumstances

3) Then you get disease, i.e. symptoms

You do not get 3 without 2 and you do not get an awakened 2 without 1

One of the fundamentals of homeopathy, which Hahnemann teaches us, is to look at HOW people or animals become ill. Homeopathy is one of the few healing practices that really examines all the causes, thinking outside the conventional medical box as to what might make someone ill and we do this hopefully all the time during case taking.

Don't blame the bug!

Joy
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Fran Sheffield wrote:

And perhaps you could tell me why someone acquires a miasm but doesn't get the acute disease of that miasm?
Liz

No-one is blaming the bug! Can't you see that?
But we would have no symptoms - and no susceptibility to a particular disease either - without the original bug and its infection of humans.
How could all these symptoms and susceptibilities be created without a template? The template is the microbe.
Liz

and who has proven the 'bug' causes anything now or then?
What if the 'bug' is the result?

I will send something I wrote up 4 years ago
Sheri

At 08:21 AM 11/24/2010, you wrote:

BACTERIA/VIRUSES/?DISEASE
I wanted to write up something specific and share links to other ways of looking at this - that bacteria & viruses do NOT 'cause' disease.
(hope the links still work - let me know if any don't)
Something is likely 'spread' - the energy of the illness, something stimulating release of toxins that is healthy (the illness of chickenpox, measles, etc). Something happens in childhood illnesses that might be very necessary for development of the immune system - but are the bacteria or viruses the cause?? Are they only present? Are they doing a job cleaning up? Is the illness important as it is the body's way of getting rid of toxins inherited and acquired in utero and early life?
I am now writing up some of my ideas about germs, viruses, disease
So, whether or not it is bacteria or viruses that are spreading something, the fact remains that something is communicated from one to another - somehow, someway.
And it is the susceptibility of the person, the terrain, the state of the mind, body spirit, that matters when it comes to staying healthy or becoming ill.
The symptoms of chickenpox exist and seem to spread through schools, families and neighborhoods
The symptoms of measles, rubella, mumps, & pertussis, exist and seem to spread through schools, families & neighborhoods
But does the above mean that a bacteria or virus CAUSES them? No. Does the existence of a bacteria or virus mean that it causes it? NO. Because they are detected to be there does not mean they CAUSED it. Just because I am found at the scene of a car accident and am trying to help, does not mean that I caused it. Because bacteria come to a stagnant pond and is cleaning it up, does mean that the bacteria caused the stagnant pond. They are there doing a job. Maybe the job is related to the illness, maybe not.
The symptoms of poliomyelitis are very different - see my http://www.wellwithin1.com/PolioJimWest.htm for info on proof that polio was NOT infectious - did not spread from contacts, but was a toxic situation

The smallpox situation is likely similar to the polio situation above.
BUT much has become invested in the germ theory and that bacteria and viruses cause illness - an entrenched belief system that now makes lots of money for researchers, the medical industry including doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, drug and vaccine companies and every industry related to these.
It will be very difficult to ever find the truth about all of this, at this point in time. Misinterpretation & absolute lies have tainted everything and likely we will never recover the truth until we are destroyed.
A lot of this has to do with your worldview - are we part of a world that is purposeful and all things work to support life and health and we are part of that world - symbiosis. OR is the world a dangerous place where all kinds of things are out to get us. Things that are separate from us, harmful, dangerous. US and THEM. We have been programmed, especially in the last 100 years to fear disease and many things - it has been implanted it into the consciousness of all of us - why has this been done? Always look to 'who benefits' when you are questioning what someone is telling you. This type of propaganda that produces fear of disease is about greed. It can be used to reduce knowledge, compassion, understanding. It can be used to cause people to separate from each other. It divides us. Maybe we need to help the bacteria or virus (if it is doing a job) do its job more effectively. Help instead of fight it. We have a war mentality going on in every aspect of our life - fight it. This goes back, in part, to the time of Descartes (& before) - separation of the mind, body and spirit. We are separate from the planet, we are separate from each other.
BACTERIA
I know that bacteria live on & in our bodies all the time
Many/most of those are doing a job that is important - symbiotic (mutually beneficial) bacteria are instrumental in digestion, vitamin production, and other good work.
a: producing vitamins (bacteria in the human gut produce vitamin K ) - Escherichia coli (a.k.a. E. coli) lives in the gut, where it helps digest food and produces Vitamin K
Healthy bacteria are needed to help with digestion as they produce enzymes which, help to break down food. Some species of bacteria also produce B Complex Vitamins and assist in their assimilation by the intestines. Healthy bacteria also perform "house-cleaning" duties like helping to repair the intestinal mucosa lining the intestinal walls.
b: live on our skin and protect us from many harmful agents. The drier areas, like the back, have few microbes; moist areas, such as under the arm, have many more
c. In the body - consume and mop up dead and decaying matter - cleaning up toxic situation
Bacteria in some cases produce toxins while doing these jobs and these may be what makes us sick if we are sickly all ready. Is that the bacteria's fault? Or is that the fault of the terrain - that it is so weakened and so sickly that it can't tolerate something normal going on in the body - bacteria breaking down dead stuff
d. one of the indicators or symptoms that an organ or tissue is undergoing pathogenic changes, the causes of which have little to do with the presence or absence of the viruses or bacteria.
e. maintain our atmosphere - Cyanobacteria (formerly known as blue-green algae) live in water, where they produce large amounts of the oxygen we breathe.
f. Lactobacillus bulgaricus helps turn milk into cheese, yogurt, and other dairy products. Lactobacillus turns lactose, the sugar in milk, into lactic acid that wards off microbes that cause spoilage.
g. Bacillus thuringiensis is also know as "Bt." This common soil bacterium acts as a natural pest-killer in gardens and on crops.
h. Propionibacterium freudenreichii - This bacterium produces carbon dioxide gas bubbles that burst in ripening cheese, leaving this cheese's trademark holes.
i. Xanthomonas campestris - produces a slimy outer couting called xanthan. Xanthan gum is used as a thickening and stabilizing agent in many common products including water-based paints and cosmetics.
j. Saccharomyces is also known as Baker's Yeast because it is used to make bread rise. This fungus also breaks down the natural sugars in grains or other starchy ingredients into carbon dioxide and ethanol (a.k.a. alcohol).
k. Methanotrophs eat methane gas to clean up hazardous waste dumps and landfills. These methane-munching bacteria make an enzyme that can break down more than 250 nasty pollutants into harmless molecules. By piping methane into the soil, we can increase growth of the methanotrophs that normally live in the polluted soil. More methanotrophs means faster pollution break up.
l. Acetobacter modifies glucose, making vitamin C as a by-product.
m. Arbuscular is part of a soil-living fungus family. This fungus helps crops take up nutrients from the soil.
n. Saccharomyces carlsbergensis - This fungus breaks down the natural sugars in grains to form ethanol and carbon dioxide (a.k.a. beer).
o. Pseudomonas cleans waste from sewage water at water treatment plants.
p. Acidophilus bacteria breaks down sugars and carbohydrates in milk, turning it into yogurt. This process is called fermentation.
q. Bacteria are what decompose and use up dead plant and animal matter.
r. Certain species of bacteria that live on the roots of plants actually "fix" nitrogen from the air, convert it to plant food, and feed the plants with essential plant nutrients.
Rhizobia convert free nitrogen into a form that the plants can use in order to grow.
s. Bacillus thuringiensis(Bt), has insecticidal properties and is used to control plant pests.
t. The "average" American; that is, the one eating his or her daily "meat and chemicals" diet, carries in their large intestine alone 4-4 1/2 lbs of bacteria, or 1x10 18 , that is, more bacteria in their large intestine than there are cells in their body! http://www.alchemycalpages.com/infectious2.html
u. maintain our atmosphere - Cyanobacteria (formerly known as blue-green algae) live in water, where they produce large amounts of the oxygen we breathe.
********
Here are some pages on the positive things about bacteria
http://www.microbeworld.org/know/everyday.aspx
http://www.microbeworld.org/microbes/ba ... fault.aspx
http://www.microbeworld.org/microbes/vi ... erium.aspx - some of how 'they' explain differences between bacteria & viruses
Of course the above webpages buys into the idea that viruses & bacteria 'cause' disease - but that is one track that was taken back a few hundred years ago and there are others who did not have the perspective.
******
VIRUSES
I don't know if there are such things as viruses as they have explained it to us
If there are such things as viruses, I don't know that they 'cause' illness in everyone
If there are such things as viruses, I don't know that they 'cause' illness in some
If there are such things as viruses, they may be doing an important job helping to repair DNA, etc
If there are such things as viruses & they are doing an important job, then we aren't helping by trying to destroy them.
If there are such things as viruses, are they spread around? Is that a bad thing? Are they doing an important job?
Are the childhood illnesses situations where the body has a chance to get rid of toxins and disturbances inherited, acquired while in utero, acquired at delivery and early life?
Are these viral caused? Something else that we don't understand yet - a wave of energy, or something stimulating it.
Are they early challenges of some sort to help build the immune system - idea that everything has a purpose on this planet and is doing a job that is necessary - nature is not against us
http://www.alchemycalpages.com/infectious2.html
INFECTIOUS ILLNESS.
Part 2
"Now, no-one in their right mind, in seeing the body of a dead mouse covered with thousands of ants, would ever conclude that the swarm of ants were responsible for killing the mouse. No, the ants are eating and cleaning up and removing the decaying flesh of the already dead mouse.
Conversely, no-one on their right mind would conclude that if we pour some insect killer on the swarm of ants in an attempt to eliminate them would restore life to the dead mouse.
Yet, it is thought axiomatic today, in the scientific medical community, that if evidence of the presence of viruses or bacteria are found in an ill-person's body, that the virus or bacteria is the cause of the illness. This is analogous to concluding that because we find a swarm of ants consuming the body of a dead animal, the ants killed the animal."
"Therefore, finding more and more powerful antibiotics or anti-viral agents to kill the bacteria or virus will do absolutely nothing to help promote the revitalization and regeneration of the decaying organ or tissue being "mopped-up" by the bacteria or virus."
Further links
Also might want to read (of course I DON'T agree with everything below, and some I haven't made my mind up about yet):
Dr Stefan Lanka exposes the "Viral Fraud" (from 2002 - on purportedly existing "diseasecausing viruses" in general):
http://www.neue-medizin.com/lanka2.htm

Interview with Stefan Lanka on "bird flu" etc 27.10.2005:
http://www.klein-klein-aktion.de/conten ... d_flu.html or
http://rolf-martens.com/otherspubs/0510 ... u_etc.html

An article by Stefan Lanka, 01.03.2006, "Are there and can there be diseasecausing viruses" (written in particular with a view to that big hoax about there existing a "bird flu virus"):
http://rolf-martens.com/otherspubs/0603 ... ruses.html

http://www.homeoint.org/books4/close/chapter06.htm
The Genius of Homeopathy
Lectures and Essays on Homeopathic Philosophy
By Dr Stuart M. CLOSE
Presented by Médi-T
Chapter VI
Life, Health and Disease
http://freespace.virgin.net/ahcare.qua/ ... tions.html
Viral Infections
What do we know?
by Dr Patrick Quanten MD
Here are websites on natural hygiene (they don't buy into the germ theory)
Here are some websites
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/
http://www.doctoryourself.com/natural_hygiene.html
www.whale.to/vaccines/shelton1.html
www.drbass.com/disease-cure.html
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyg ... 27.toc.htm
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyg ... inaion.htm
http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/raiseachild.html

http://www.unhinderedliving.com/germtheory.html
A Faulty Medical Model: The Germ Theory
http://whale.to/a/b/pearson.html
THE DREAM AND LIE OF LOUIS PASTEUR
by R. B. Pearson
http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/articles.html

Many interesting articles by Ian Sinclair
He is right on!
Germs - The Mistaken Enemy
Immunity - A Medical Myth
Vaccination - A False Premise
Life-Long Immunity - No Such Thing
Infectious Disease - A Misnomer
Immunological Memory Is Not Enough
The Immune System - Its True Role
New Cough Vaccine!
You Can't Build A Brick House Without The Bricks
Safe Vaccines - What's The Point?
What The Game Is All About
Hepatitis - The Liver Cure
http://tinyurl.com/yf6bq5
http://www.newtreatments.org/
Synthesis of the Work of Enderlein, Bechamps and other Pleomorphic Researchers
http://whale.to/v/pleomorphism.htm
http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/pleomorphism-1.html
http://www.euroamericanhealth.com/pleo.html
PLEOMORPHISM
(I'm not in agreement with isopathics which they have a link to toward the bottom & associate with this)
also google on pleomorphism
http://www.herbdatanz.com/pasteur_or_be ... isms-1.htm
Pasteur or Bechamp? Pleomorphic Organisms
Part~1
Ivor Hughes
Nature Cure
Philosophy & Practice Based on the Unity of Disease & Cure
Henry Lindlahr, M.D.
TWENTIETH EDITION
Published by The Nature Cure Publishing Company
525 South Ashland Boulevard, Chicago
1922
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyg ... 23ch5.html

http://freespace.virgin.net/ahcare.qua/ ... tions.html
Viral Infections
What do we know?
by Dr Patrick Quanten MD
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/20 ... _virus.htm
July 05, 2003
Hepatitis C epidemic - where is the virus?
http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/terrain/l ... dicine.htm
The Lost History of Medicine
Sick and Tired?: Reclaim Your Inner Terrain
Lots on that issue and how to eat more healthfully created a more alkaline environment
BOOK here - excellent for this information - I don't agree that all should be vegetarian and also don't agree with pH numbers he says we should attain - from my study a pH of 6.4 in urine and saliva is the aim
US
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN% ... 07-9909426
UK

CANADA


So, that's my offering of ideas and resources for further information for now!
Lot's to think about and contemplate
Sheri
--------------------------------------------------------
copyright Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath, October 2006
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://homeopathycures.wordpress.com/ & http://vaccinationdangers.wordpress.com/
ONLINE/Email classes in Homeopathy; Vaccine Dangers; Childhood Diseases
Next classes start January 2011

Yes - I take your point, and certainly the 'bug' multiplies as soon as it finds a favourable 'terrain'.
But where does the 'template' come from!
Liz

Very interesting, Sheri. Thank you.
I agree with a lot you say - some comments below:
"are we part of a world that is purposeful and all things work to support life and health and we are part of that world - symbiosis. OR is the world a dangerous place where all kinds of things are out to get us."
Well - I happen to think that the world is neither good nor bad - safe or dangerous - it just is. So things work to gether in symbiosis, if you like, but the flip side of that is that some things are being continually recycled, by the process of death and decay. This is inevitable, and it includes us too. But we have forgotten this in our mad search to alleviate all suffering and disease, so we can't accept it when we get ill and die.
I think that there are bugs that produce disease - and some people are immune to certain bugs (have no susceptibility to them) and some are immune to others. This susceptibility exists in degrees too - some people will get flu badly, but not disastrously, whereas others will be killed by it.
"finding more and more powerful antibiotics or anti-viral agents to kill the bacteria or virus will do absolutely nothing to help promote the revitalization and regeneration of the decaying organ or tissue being "mopped-up" by the bacteria or virus."

I'm afraid that this is not borne out by what we can see in the use of antibiotics. This is not to say that antibiotics are the answer to everything, still less that they should be used for every minor illness. However, in some cases they are life-saving; this cannot be denied. They kill the bacteria which are proliferating and leading to death of the host - and with luck they stop the process of destruction (and therefore the symptoms of disease as well) and buy time in which the body can re-build its immune system and recover. Of course, they have side-effects, and these need to be redressed, but the alternative would be death.
Now, if the bacteria were simply there because they were a result of the dynamic disorder, removing them would not make the slightest difference to the dynamic disorder, which would continue apace. But their removal effectively halts the process. I therefore conclude that they are, in part, responsible for the disorder in the first place. This is not to deny the role of susceptibility, simply to say that there is an additional factor that is also partly 'causative' of disease - the pathogen.
"The symptoms of chickenpox exist and seem to spread through schools, families and neighborhoods
The symptoms of measles, rubella, mumps, & pertussis, exist and seem to spread through schools, families & neighborhoods
But does the above mean that a bacteria or virus CAUSES them? No."
OK - so it could be dynamic energy that spreads through a community. That is what I happen to believe and it makes sense to me as I happen to believe that everything in this world is made of energy. So this energy spreading through a community can also manifest 'physically' - as can, for example, a table. This physical manifestation can be captured (as in vaccination) and used to spread the disorder further - as in biological warfare, for example. So I believe there is a bug, which has its own primary energy, and which spreads through an energetic transfer. This transfer can manifest physically as soon as it takes hold of a susceptible host.
Further to that, once this energy has grafted itself onto its host, it leaves a trace - and this trace can subsequently be passed on to others, either for protection (as in breast milk) or as a miasmatic imprint. And then the whole cycle can begin again - either miasmatically, seeking out similar forms and expressions of this energy, or attracting the original, primary energy - and the physical manifestation - the bug!
This is an approximation of what I feel to be true - not sure of it, but feeling my way.
Liz

By the way - forgot to add that some of those links don't work. Ian Sinclair - nothing. Stefan Lanka - very strange result!
liz