Instead of playing word games, why not just answer my *question*?
If no microorganisms are ever harmful, then why is that that a chemical (or other treatment) whose *only* purpose (I do not say its only *effect*) is to kill of specific microorganisms, why do they serve the intended purpose, and in some cases make the difference between life and death?
Why does a person lacking an immune system die if exposed to a normal environment, yet do fine if kept in a sterile one?
If you don't answer these questions, then the only possible conclusion is that either you do not believe the assertion (that no microorganisms are ever harmful) either (in which case why have you posted it), or that you really don't understand either the assertion or the questions.
Would you like to answer, please?
Or simply retract the assertion?
Shannon
Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
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Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
How many more answers do you want?
I have this fantastic cartoon of Guaicum - it is a person sat on a stool with a knife stuck in their head, dreaming of murder and riots, they are being critical and morose and despicable, demanding. But in their defiance they are thoroughly confused. The core feeling is a delusion everything is too narrow (that might include their thinking and understanding of a situation, one they haven't comprehended). They are extremely disobedient and obstinate, not to say contemptuous. Ho hum.
However you might want to point out where I said no micro-organism is harmful (I have given the reason for the article so no reason to cite that example, which were not my words anyway). If someone lacks an immune system (your words) then the reason for any death could be full of variants.
Joy
http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/
I have this fantastic cartoon of Guaicum - it is a person sat on a stool with a knife stuck in their head, dreaming of murder and riots, they are being critical and morose and despicable, demanding. But in their defiance they are thoroughly confused. The core feeling is a delusion everything is too narrow (that might include their thinking and understanding of a situation, one they haven't comprehended). They are extremely disobedient and obstinate, not to say contemptuous. Ho hum.
However you might want to point out where I said no micro-organism is harmful (I have given the reason for the article so no reason to cite that example, which were not my words anyway). If someone lacks an immune system (your words) then the reason for any death could be full of variants.
Joy
http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/
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Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
No comment on the first paragraph--thanks, though. 
But as to pointing out where you said no micro-organism is harmful, if you will re-read my posts, you will see that I have been referencing the *article* you sent. I have been asking you to either affirm or deny that claim. I've stated really clearly that that is *all* I was asking for, because I find *that claim*--which has been discussed here before--to be a dangerous one.
I find it really interesting that you're not just saying "Yes some microorganisms can be harmful, if susceptibility is there. I was viewing that as an *analogy* not as a literal assertion, and sent the article for the other reasons mentioned." It would have been so easy to just say that in the first place, and this whooooole thing could have been skipped.
Then we are in agreement, and I will happily move on!
Shannon
But as to pointing out where you said no micro-organism is harmful, if you will re-read my posts, you will see that I have been referencing the *article* you sent. I have been asking you to either affirm or deny that claim. I've stated really clearly that that is *all* I was asking for, because I find *that claim*--which has been discussed here before--to be a dangerous one.
I find it really interesting that you're not just saying "Yes some microorganisms can be harmful, if susceptibility is there. I was viewing that as an *analogy* not as a literal assertion, and sent the article for the other reasons mentioned." It would have been so easy to just say that in the first place, and this whooooole thing could have been skipped.
Then we are in agreement, and I will happily move on!
Shannon
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
it could have been avoided if you hadn't purposefully manipulated and degraded an important article that showed further insights into propaganda and more vaccine damage vis the recent upheaval regarding so called swine 'flu. You think you managed to detract from that, hopefully you didn't.
Joy
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Shannon & Bob Nelson wrote:
Joy
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Shannon & Bob Nelson wrote:
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Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
Is it by focusing my questions on that one quote that you feel I "purposefully manipulated and degraded" the article, or was there something else?
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Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
Okay, toxins produced by bacteria.
I do think it's more complicated than that, as a healthy immune system simply kills off the bacteria. Also bacteria can directly parasitize tissues--I watched one munching on my own blood cell (via dark field microscope), and I think at that point the bacterium *is* the toxin.
But again, I'm not looking to argue about details; only looking to not be associated (and not to have homeopathy associated) with the idea that microorganisms never cause disease. Yes they are doing their job; so are the mosquitos that bite us, the wolves that prey on farm animals, the raccoons that eat my chickens. They're doing their job, but that doesn't mean that their job isn't harmful to *my* interests; and doesn't mean that microorganisms are always beneficial--from *our* standpoint.
Shannon
I do think it's more complicated than that, as a healthy immune system simply kills off the bacteria. Also bacteria can directly parasitize tissues--I watched one munching on my own blood cell (via dark field microscope), and I think at that point the bacterium *is* the toxin.
But again, I'm not looking to argue about details; only looking to not be associated (and not to have homeopathy associated) with the idea that microorganisms never cause disease. Yes they are doing their job; so are the mosquitos that bite us, the wolves that prey on farm animals, the raccoons that eat my chickens. They're doing their job, but that doesn't mean that their job isn't harmful to *my* interests; and doesn't mean that microorganisms are always beneficial--from *our* standpoint.
Shannon
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
I should know better than to engage here, but: How about looking at the bugs as "neutral"? They exist, they make a living. One of their functions is to take out the garbage, i.e., to take up residence in organisms already so impaired they are on the way out, as far as natural selection is concerned. Unfortunately, perhaps, that includes a lot of us and our patients. Yes, homeopathy can turn that around, but otherwise it's a downhill slide all the way for these individuals. Susceptibility is nothing more than a harbinger of death, or, more mildly spoken, a sign of dysfunction. Not the bacteria's fault, eh, when someone is overcome by a proliferation of bugs normally under constraints.
That accounts for the susceptibility, the immune weakness, and the ultimate failure to cure of all antibiotics. They may forestall demise - this time - but harm the overall individual in potentially worse ways. It's the same with any suppressive treatment - surgery for cancer, heart bypass, etc, only buy time, but not quality of life or health unless real measures are taken.
Whether a defenseless little bug causes death is entirely a matter of perspective.
ginny
All stunts performed without a net!
________________________________
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: shannonnelson@tds.net
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:08:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
Instead of playing word games, why not just answer my *question*?
If no microorganisms are ever harmful, then why is that that a chemical (or other treatment) whose *only* purpose (I do not say its only *effect*) is to kill of specific microorganisms, why do they serve the intended purpose, and in some cases make the difference between life and death?
Why does a person lacking an immune system die if exposed to a normal environment, yet do fine if kept in a sterile one?
That accounts for the susceptibility, the immune weakness, and the ultimate failure to cure of all antibiotics. They may forestall demise - this time - but harm the overall individual in potentially worse ways. It's the same with any suppressive treatment - surgery for cancer, heart bypass, etc, only buy time, but not quality of life or health unless real measures are taken.
Whether a defenseless little bug causes death is entirely a matter of perspective.
ginny
All stunts performed without a net!
________________________________
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: shannonnelson@tds.net
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:08:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
Instead of playing word games, why not just answer my *question*?
If no microorganisms are ever harmful, then why is that that a chemical (or other treatment) whose *only* purpose (I do not say its only *effect*) is to kill of specific microorganisms, why do they serve the intended purpose, and in some cases make the difference between life and death?
Why does a person lacking an immune system die if exposed to a normal environment, yet do fine if kept in a sterile one?
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
How do you know a healthy immune system kills off bacteria? According to § 11 they will be there but not doing any harm, because they can't in a healthy body, it is a conceptual invasion. How long they live or try to live in a healthy body is anyone's guess, maybe waiting for the appropriate weakening to happen. This is what chronic disease is about, the taint is there, inherited, so it is a matter of opportunity rather than anything else.
Joy
http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/
Joy
http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/
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Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
Hi Joy,
How I know what a healthy immune system does--I have not personally watched (other than watching a white blood cell engulf a bacterium--that I also got to watch in my "live blood" session)--for that I will let you just consult textbooks, or people more with more direct knowledge than myself. I know what I was *taught*--having to do with white blood cells, antibodies, vacuoles, production of hydrogen peroxide and other chemicals, and etc. But how do I know that it's true and accurate, and not either a widely shared delusion or a conspiracy?
Many bacteria which would be pathogenic in *large* numbers, are perfectly harmless so long as the numbers are small, and the immune system is normal. (The susceptibility issue.) But yes, a healthy immune system does exert influence on what organisms reside there, and in what numbers. If anything could grow in us that happened by, then how would our bodies respond any differently than a corpse? While rotting and decaying is a *good* thing for corpses, it is not such a good thing for a living creature!
Shannon
How I know what a healthy immune system does--I have not personally watched (other than watching a white blood cell engulf a bacterium--that I also got to watch in my "live blood" session)--for that I will let you just consult textbooks, or people more with more direct knowledge than myself. I know what I was *taught*--having to do with white blood cells, antibodies, vacuoles, production of hydrogen peroxide and other chemicals, and etc. But how do I know that it's true and accurate, and not either a widely shared delusion or a conspiracy?
Many bacteria which would be pathogenic in *large* numbers, are perfectly harmless so long as the numbers are small, and the immune system is normal. (The susceptibility issue.) But yes, a healthy immune system does exert influence on what organisms reside there, and in what numbers. If anything could grow in us that happened by, then how would our bodies respond any differently than a corpse? While rotting and decaying is a *good* thing for corpses, it is not such a good thing for a living creature!
Shannon
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Liz Brynin
- Posts: 644
- Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Re: Have anyone found a genus of the Indian variety of Swine Flu ?
Hi Ginny
I agree with you about the suppressive nature of a lot of treatments, but have to disagree with you on one point:)
You said:
"Susceptibility is nothing more than a harbinger of death, or, more mildly spoken, a sign of dysfunction."
Actually, we were taught at college that it is susceptibility that keeps us alive! It is a wonderful function of the immune system, bringing both flexibility and strength. Susceptibility is how we heal ourseleves - the ability of our body to confront a disruption to the Vital Force and throw out healing symptoms is this susceptibility in progress. In a healthy person, susceptibility will be easily satisfied, and the acute problem will be dealt with. The immune system will have gone through a learning curve, and will come out strengthened.
However, no diseases, or few of them, are a sign that the body is failing to deal with its miasmatic inheritance. We all have a miasmatic background, and eventually our health breaks down. The body attempts to deal with miasms by flare-ups of acute disease - so the susceptibility of the Vital Force is a good thing as it a way for the body to try and heal a particular miasm. However, if we had no susceptibility, disease would just pass us by, and we could not use it to our advantage. This is what happens with vaccinations - they lower our susceptibility to certain diseases and so remove our chance to heal ourselves. This is a form of suppression, and eventually our immune system - and our health - would collapse totally.
So some degree of susceptibility is a necessary part of survival. What's more, it is the basis of how homeopathy works - we could not use our remedies to heal if there were no susceptibilities. A remedy works on the basis of similarity - which is another way of saying susceptibility. Because we are susceptible to a remedy, it can heal us.
Liz
I agree with you about the suppressive nature of a lot of treatments, but have to disagree with you on one point:)
You said:
"Susceptibility is nothing more than a harbinger of death, or, more mildly spoken, a sign of dysfunction."
Actually, we were taught at college that it is susceptibility that keeps us alive! It is a wonderful function of the immune system, bringing both flexibility and strength. Susceptibility is how we heal ourseleves - the ability of our body to confront a disruption to the Vital Force and throw out healing symptoms is this susceptibility in progress. In a healthy person, susceptibility will be easily satisfied, and the acute problem will be dealt with. The immune system will have gone through a learning curve, and will come out strengthened.
However, no diseases, or few of them, are a sign that the body is failing to deal with its miasmatic inheritance. We all have a miasmatic background, and eventually our health breaks down. The body attempts to deal with miasms by flare-ups of acute disease - so the susceptibility of the Vital Force is a good thing as it a way for the body to try and heal a particular miasm. However, if we had no susceptibility, disease would just pass us by, and we could not use it to our advantage. This is what happens with vaccinations - they lower our susceptibility to certain diseases and so remove our chance to heal ourselves. This is a form of suppression, and eventually our immune system - and our health - would collapse totally.
So some degree of susceptibility is a necessary part of survival. What's more, it is the basis of how homeopathy works - we could not use our remedies to heal if there were no susceptibilities. A remedy works on the basis of similarity - which is another way of saying susceptibility. Because we are susceptible to a remedy, it can heal us.
Liz