Minutus

Depends on the food.
"Tallow" is bad. "animal fat" is bad. Flax is bad. Canola is bad. Any
seed oil is bad.
Chicken fat preserved wit Vit E is good. (It's what is i Propac.)
Actually that is also a fallacy. Many big brands have bad fat - but
not all. The Walmart Maxximum kittens actually has pretty good
ingredients for example - surprising - but the point is that yo have
to read the ingredients..... and not make assumptions. Some of the
WORST foods on the market, are the ones commonly sold only by vets
and touted as "super premium"!

So why promote brands with by-products and tallow?
(Nobody else did that here.)
The conversation was about the *best* available commercial food - not
the worst:-)
At least my part in it was intended that way:-)

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Please go back and re-read it.
I answered it in great gory toxic detail - listing all the problem
ingredients - which took several lines ....

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

On Aug 7, 2008, at 3:12 PM,
wrote:
Dear Soroush,

Unfortunately - Yes that's one aspect.
The highest cause of death in cats is kidney disease, from
inappropriate food - because almost every commercial food on the
market contains feline toxins or feline kidney damaging or gut
damaging material. Literally, only four out of many hundreds, do not.
Add that to legally enforced vaccines and you have a recipe for
health disaster that requires correction of food as one aspect of
every feline case.
Homeopathy can not do it alone.
So as you say - maintaining cause:-)

I have a cat health discussion list - Catwell - where nutrition is a
significant percentage of the discussion volume - as seen in ten
years of archives for example. As I invited before - that venue is
available if this list is getting cluttered with the cat nutrition
subject. It has been very well covered there.
I am just sad that since almost everyone has a cat - there is such
universal misunderstanding on the basic facts of the subject.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Soroush,

IMO just as much as the topics on human nutricion and toxic
substances, as e.g. apspartane.

At least as long as we include homeopathy for animals to be part of
homeopathy (Hahnemann and v. B. e.g. did)

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Dear Soroush,
Excuse me if I have overstepped.
I believe that food is VERY important in maintaining health, yes. I also believe that the topic of feline nutrition is very misunderstood...even by the "scholars" (as is human nutrition, which also gets contradictory research papers put out!)....but if you think the topic is spent, just say the word!:)
Marilyn
________________________________

> The fat in commercial foods is often rendered from the "by-

Actually that is also a fallacy. Many big brands have bad fat - but
not all. The Walmart Maxximum kittens actually has pretty good
ingredients for example - surprising - but the point is that yo have
to read the ingredients..... and not make assumptions. Some of the
WORST foods on the market, are the ones commonly sold only by vets
and touted as "super premium"!

Irene...I am not disputing that many "super premium" foods are garbage BUT I stand by my statement that grocery store or big chain brand cat foods have mostly "unhealthy" fat in them. How do you think they get the less expensive price? I don't know about your cats, but mine get diarrhea from eating that stuff!
Unfortunately, not all ingredients are boldly listed in the "Ingredient list"! Unless you have been to the processing plants, imho, you should not be recommending ONE brand of food, over the others.
BTW, aren't you at all concerned at the amount of salt in Pro Pac?
Marilyn

Irene...please go back and re read the rest of my post. It had many questions in it. I've pasted it below, for your convenience...
Do you have a copy of "Herbs for Pets" by Mary L. Wrulff-Tilford & Gregory L. Tilford? That may help you to put into perspective the toxicity you are claiming about some herbs. Please remember too, that altho cats are obligate carnivores, in the wild they will eat mice, rabbits, etc, which DO have herbs, grasses etc in their gut system, so small amounts of "greens" ARE appropriate. My cats LOVE sprouted wheat grass!:)
I do agree with the sunflower oil caution...as I have seen no real good to this additive...and some allergic reactions as well.
As to
...adding salmon and sardines...canned...hmmmm, have you ever seen a cat eating fish from a creek??? I haven't, so why would they eat ocean fish? You are calling cats carnivores and then putting your own interpretation on what meats they should be eating.
...extra taurine...I think food companies are more than careful about adding taurine since they "found out" what the lack of taurine would do. If you are concerned about the cats needing extra taurine, why not supplement with heart? It has natural taurine, which is easier assimilated than supplements.
My concern too, which you didn't address, was the "daily" addition of Vit E. This is a fat soluble vitamin, which means that it is not "washed out" of their systems like Vit B & C...which means that it can build up to toxic levels in a short time. The food that you are recommending, ProPac, has Vit E used as a preservative, and then you are adding more to their daily, apparently daily. Please stop!
I think the big problem here is that there is NO ONE "good" cat food. This is why I usually recommend feeding 2-4 different brands of cat food (and raw meat supplementation as well, if possible). I also think that each cat has slightly different nutritional needs (just as humans do!) and that one will "do well" on one brand/formulation and the next...even with very similar "health problems" will not do well. For goodness sakes, we don't know enuf about human nutrition, how would we possibly know "all" about feline nutrition?
Marilyn

Hi Irene,
Well, since sometime ago I was proven wrong in thinking that "neck" is
only the posterior part, I tend to look up English words I have used
when there is a discussion about my using it:-)

So I looked in Websters and found: "3 a: bent, tendency b: an
inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and
sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice c: an instance of such
prejudice d "

So I may say that bias has no connection to profiting from it
(although of course we all tend to a bias in favaour of what is
profitable to us:-)
Look, I have studied Comparative Religion and Linguistics. So I am
better qualified than most other people to have ab opinion. But of
course my studies also caused a certain bias, especially since my
studies could only cover a very small part of what is known or
surmised etc. So I only know a small part of the fields and any
questions that I address in those fields would be biased, slanted,
filtered by what I do know.

There is no doubt that this so in your case also.

On top of that: ANY research is biased by the question asked. For
experiments, studies whatever you have to choose the topic and
the specifics from an almost innumerable pool of possible questions
and approaches to those questions.

And moreover: of course you are very much biased at least in one topic
- vaccination. How would I know whether your opinions on Soya, on the
toxic properties of other ingredients etc. are not based on an equally
strong bias?:-)

This applies to all the people on the list and most others around in
the world. As you very well know: this is the reason for those
horrible footnotes and bibliographies in scientific and scholarly
texts, this is why in science it is required that an experiment is
described in a way that other scientist can reduplicate it.
Indeed - that is a very valid suggestions!!
No good in the case of my cat. I should find that spoonful in the same
place again and again - unless he likes it. But actually I have not
had any problem with kibbles - I have varied them extensively and : no
problem.

But: Propac kitten is hardly available in Germany. I finally found the
(only one it seems) importer and persuaded the manager to include it
in their nex order, which would get it here around the end of Sept.

Propac adult I could get: 7 kg package. This is ridiculous!!

So I guess I'll start looking through all the catfood available here
and look at the ingredients.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

On Aug 8, 2008, at 11:47 AM, Marilyn Wagner wrote:
And yet fish *does* seem to be good for cats. I wonder if perhaps it
helps to re-balance the omega 3s, which are generally higher in wild
foods and lower in the farmed foods that make up most domestic cats'
diets today? (Even the raw-fed ones.)

cats are funny about fish--sometimes yes and sometimes no.
i ususally follow their lead. if i eat salmon, they get the skin which
they seem to love. wellness chicken and herring is a bit hit with them.
raw organic chicken and turkey works well with one cat; my older
one one day decided she didnt want it any more. possibly because
of the bone in it--she has no teeth left. yes they need individuation, too

tanya