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Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:58 am
by Irene de Villiers
John Harvey wrote:

Not much - the disease to be ousted, needs a stronger (higher potency)
remedy for success.
So without potency, you are stuck with mundane examples like putting a
burned finger under the hot tap to fix it.

Namaste,
Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:52 am
by Shannon Nelson
Hi John,
In that context, what is the difference?

Forums are pretty much preaching to the choir. The sad thing is that
they've more certainly obtained that "information" from hanging out in
places like this, where we are airing in (relative) public our dirty
laundry that really ought to be dealt with like the family matter that
it is.

But--"implausible properties of water"? What are you referring to?

Agreed!

Okay, I see your point. I'll try to stop that sidetrack, tho I'm not
sure it will make a difference to this discussion... But I'll try, and
see.

You mean, "the nature of homeopathic practice"? Well, that too we have
not been able to agree on... While I share your strong preference for
Hahnemann's definition, I do not share your optimism that insisting
upon it, as a starting point for discussion, is useful.
??

Well, that's what they are trying to do when they attack the studies.
Some of those studies do not put "law of similars" into practice very
well; in other cases there may be other obstacles, I don't know.

And in some cases we have the two sides viewing the same study, but one
says "black" and the other says "white"... Mostly, tho, they seem to
simply be very selective about which studies they consider, and just
not mention at all the good evidence (favorable studies).
A broader face to attack... No, I don't think that's what I have
proposed.

And they are getting all of that from forums like this. Where else
would they be getting it?
Only because "we" (or some of us) treat it that way.

What do you mean by "part of homeopathic practice"?
Yes it is something that SOME homeopaths do.
Homeopaths also come in a variety of sizes, shapes, religions,
hairstyles, etc. You are right (or I should say, "I agree") that these
things are not part of homeopathy per se. And would never have become
confused as such in any of these detractors' minds if *we, here* (or
some of us) had not gotten so obsessed with it, and talked so endlessly
about it. At least, that is my opinion. I just don't think the
"trolls" have been trolling thru specialized journals and books to read
about these (fringe) practices by a *small* group of homeopaths. Some
of whom are, by the way, excellent "real" homeopaths, and the fact that
they bring these sidelines into it should have no more bearing on the
critics' arguments than should the fact that other, in some cases
excellent, homeopaths also practice, say, acupuncture, psychology,
herbs, whatever. The methods are separate.
Okay... So we I'm trying to leave aside any question of "who's a
homeopath." But apparently you're addressing that particular (small)
subset of homeopaths... So, we should quit obsessing over "variants"
that may be practiced by individual homeopaths--yes yes, it's not part
of "what homeopathy is"; it *is* part of "what some homeopaths also
do"... So how does one get that across, to people who basically are
trying *not* to understand, and basically don't *want* to know "what
homeopathy really is..." And... and what? How do we prove the "Law of
Similars"? "They" want us to prove it via studies. We have plenty of
good studies in our favor, and also some not in our favor. They read
those selectively... Now what?
Cheers,
Shannon

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:56 am
by Shannon Nelson
Well, depending on what the disease is...
For acutes an herbal similar can certainly be potent enough; for a
deep-seated chronic disease, tho, that would be my suspicion too. And
if the needed remedy is a poison, or even just really icky... :-)
BUT I think John's point is that it's the correspondence that's of
first importance, and *sometimes* that is sufficient, even without
potentization; whereas no matter how highly potentized the remedy is,
if it's the wrong remedy, it won't do the job.

If we have to choose between proper potency and proper remedy,
generally the remedy choice is the more important factor--would you
agree with that?
Shannon

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:52 am
by muthu kumar
> Not much - the disease to be ousted, needs a stronger (higher
potency)
putting a

It is obvious that you have not read Hahnemann's Washer-woman case..

Or read some of the works of Burnett, Richard Hughes, RT Cooper, Eli
Jones, Clarke etc. I did not hear all of them holding fingers under
the tap...

I am not saying potency is not important and that is not what even
John opined from what I understand... but if it were necessary to
throw out everything from homeopathy and get some bare bones
Homeopathy in place to defend- it would be a system based on Law of
similars.

What it can create it can cure....that is it

If you stop a minute to recollect you will find that the process of
dilution and later called potentization was not started for getting
powerful medicines but to get rid of too much aggravation so that
the already suffering patient need not suffer more with the
aggravation from the indicated remedy....there was no doubt that
even mother tinctures were acting at that point-

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:52 am
by Soroush Ebrahimi
Do NOT forget that Hn practised homoeopathy for years before he discovered dilution and potentisation!

Regards

Soroush

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:54 am
by John Harvey
Hi, Shannon --
I'm laughing at the idea that the enemies of homoeopathy will overlook
all the inbuilt assumptions and claims of the polypharmacists and
sympathetic magicians contributing to this list if they're left
undisputed as inherently "homoeopathic" in nature than if half a dozen
of us make clear that such practices, though undoubtedly wondrous and
phantastical in their wyccedly divine nature, are not, have never
been, and can never be part of homoeopathic practice itself.

If I were to assert all kinds of untrue things about you to this list
and, in replying, you left those assertions uncontested, would you
expect the list to realise that those things were false or forget
them? Or would you act on some other assumption and correct the
assertions with the facts?

I think you'd correct me, wouldn't you?

If you don't think so, shall we test it?
The memory of water -- or at least of a water-alcohol solution -- that
many of us know must be a fact by the results of its use in the sick
(and even in the healthy!) is inherently implausible to many. That's
what I meant.
Yes... though this seems less certain a moment later...
We seem to have all agreed, after quite a lot of discussion, that
homoeopathy is fundamentally based on the Law of Similars. (Surely
that is the starting point of any understanding of homoeopathy: drug
provings on the healthy, the similar single remedy. We all remember
this now, don't we?) Those who would assert that homoeopathy is based
on some other, somewhat similar principle are having themselves on.

It takes but a single reading of the _Organon_ or a dictionary entry
to confirm this. We're not going to have to repeat the entire
conversation yet again, are we, I hope, in order to establish this
once more!
Yes; the problem here seems to be one of media one-sidedness, so that
factual correction of baseless assertions -- the basis of science! --
remains unpublished.
Homoeopathy has only one thing to prove. To give it two, three,
twenty things to defend is to broaden the target for attack and render
it vulnerable where it need not be.
No doubt they are. :-)
No, I'm addressing the need to be clear on what is and what is not
essential to homoeopathic practice. Even potency, valid and useful as
it is, is not an essential part of homoeopathic practice. And that
fact can be turned to our advantage if we use our intelligence to make
it so.
We can invite them to consult a dictionary. That should be a
sufficiently stinging insult to have them think more carefully before
attacking something whose fundamental nature they have taken no
trouble to learn anything about.
"Proof" of the Law of Similars has to take two forms, I think: factual
evidence that it works, and factual evidence of how it could possibly
work (in contravention of so-called common sense). The first is a
matter of finding ways to get the facts out about clinical trials and
to conduct trials that better suit homoeopathy's methods. The second
is a matter of physics research, which has come a long way in the last
decade. The June edition of _Similia_ (Australian) and the July
edition of _Homeopathy_ (British) provide very recent evidence in this
latter vein.

Kind regards,

John

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:57 pm
by Manjitpal Kahlon
I feel this is enough. I fully agree here with you. Sure Homeopaths have more important things to handle, and to work for those who understand and select this science for their requirements of health, to do something positive. Let us not waste time to explain to those who do not have open minds. Some people cannot understand because they are ignorant, some are slow and some just don't want to understand .. and worse of them are those who know nothing about it and keep arguing about it. No need to waste time here . Truth Remains Truth .. and it is before all of us .. before them .. and the attacks are nothing else but self defence.. because they feel fear of what is being done .. and they know they cannot do the same with Science of Short Cuts .
Exactly, Shannon!!!!
The fight must go on the right to choose whatever type of therapy a patient wants, give him/her the entire freedom of choice and of course the responsibility that comes with it.
Once this is acquired, then the bickering can start.
That has been done in New Zealand. Herbalists are already listed as health providers, as are Osteopaths, Chiros, Acupuncturists. Homeopaths are next on the list.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:21 pm
by muthu kumar
Wow - this is ambiguous enough for any side to use in any argument
in homeopathy ;-)
I guess I should save it....

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Manjitpal Kahlon"
wrote:
Homeopaths have
understand and
something
have open
some are
are those
waste time
before them ..
feel fear
with Science
therapy a
course the
as health
are next on
Death??
Click Here!]

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:07 pm
by Irene de Villiers
hahnemannian2002 wrote:

Is it?
It is more obvious that you did not get my point above.
I'm sorry about that - maybe some others did get it.
Only if the potency is sufficient to cure it.
It's my opinion that potency is part and parcel of homeopathy, and can
not be omitted "for convenience".
And when he did that, mere dilution did nothing to cure the case. Nor
will it nowadays.
It was only after Hahnemann ALSO succussed the solution he diluted, that
he found the resultant solution helping the side effects *and*
increasing the medicinal effect.
Mere dilution is NOT potentizing, and actually dilutes the medicinal effect.
ONLY the succussion potentizes to increase healing power.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Re: Is Homeopathy Bleeding To Death??

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:18 pm
by Irene de Villiers
John Harvey wrote:

Yes of course.
Your saying them does not make them true whether people waste time
replying or not.

That is why in law on libel/slander etc - the onus is on the
sayer/writer to prove what they are saying/writing is correct, or face
the consequences, should it come to trial.
Onus is not on the one maligned to prove their version, even though they
would be the plaintiff.

We should hold the homeopathy naysayers to the same standard.
Tell THEM to prove their view.

However - Unfortunately "homeopathy" is not a person and can not be
slandered/libelled - so your analogy falls away there.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."