Minutus

Plain common sense would tell me that if the Zinc ointment makes the skin
eruption disappear, it's no different from using a heavy prescription drug
that will drive the disease inward! And, as Hahnemannian says, the change of
symptoms even just at the skin level can really delay the cure (not to
mention the possibly terrible complication of the whole disease).

Look around you, folks. I keep taking cases of patients treated with
external suppressive lotions or ointments for their skin problems: the
disease almost always seems to go to a more important organ. We don't know
for sure how the organism might react, but why take the risk? If the vital
force is showing us a skin sx, then that skin sx should be cured because the
VF did it, not thanks to an external application. If the remedy is not
capable of curing the eruption, then it's not the correct remedy or it's not
the correct potency, or there's a Miasmatic obstacle to the cure... do you
not agree?

Besides, those cases on which the skin sx got "all better" thanks to
suppressive treatment tend to depend upon the constant application of the
ointment to keep the eruption from coming back (and this could be the best
case scenario, since the VF hasn't completely given up expressing itself in
the least harmful fashion yet): what have we healed in such fashion? Most
people with difficult skin eruptions use suppressive products on a daily
basis, and usually for years.

I've never used a zinc ointment, but if it's that impressively *effective*
getting rid of eruptions, I would consider it suppressive.

Now, if we're lucky enough to nail the perfect simillimum in the right
potency and *cure* the patient *in spite of* the external suppression,
maybe we won't forever regret to have advised our patient to use the topical
"treatment". This off course assuming we have the certainty that the patient
has afterward completely suspended the application of the external product.
And, realistically speaking, how many patients do discontinue the use of
something that makes the skin problem stay away? How do we know if we have
truly healed the patient? If the skin symptoms have disappeared, they might
take months or years to return (if they do at all; if the disease hasn't
gone to a more important vital organ), and by then who knows if the patient
will return to see us or just rub the ointment that they can get for $2 at
the store...?

I'd definitely try to convince the patient not to put anything on the skin
other than water and soap (sometimes I wonder if it'd be a good idea to
recommend the discontinuation of soap, since they tend to contain
strong antibacterial ingredients). I do ask them to try to get soaps and
shampoos with only organic ingredients and no preservatives.
I actually like to make an inventory of all the stuff the patient rubs on
his/her skin. Ask them what they have in the shower! Guys, we are
living the Third Reich of the pharmaceutical era.
Most cases that I take include the daily use of anti fungal products, and
sometimes the patient is not even aware of it (as in most cosmetic products,
including foundation, moisturizer, etc). When you have a patient that has
dandruff, do you ask them to stop using the Selsun Blue? I do.

On the other hand, are oatmeal baths and home-made calendula lotion
necessarily suppressive? How about cocoa butter, aloe lotion, coconut oil,
Shea butter? How about mud baths or face marks? I'm sure that they're not
half as bad as your Johnson & Johnson baby soap bar, as far as harmful
ingredients are concerned (including carcinogenic ones).
I would expect the non-processed, organic ones to at the very least present
a lesser risk of poisoning the patient. Perhaps they're actually helping
without suppressing, such as in early morning sun baths, or when a patient
seems to see an amelioration from bathing the affected part (or are
those suppressive?)...

We have to agree perfectly on what *suppression* is in order to find the
answers we need.
So, what is suppression?

Best,
Caro.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wouldnt use vaseline - nasty mineral oil based stuff and I dont know
why it should be less suppressive than zinc ointment.
I dont know much about how zinc ointment works - something I will look
into - but there is no way it should be used on its own for eczema.

In a way Homeopaths are the worst people to address the original
question to becasue they often come from an extreme philosophical
standpoint with regard to treating skin. We all know that to try and
heal an exogenous disease with endogenous treatments is folly but
those who say all topical application is a no-no ether dont have much
experience of treating serious skin disease or dont mind losing
patients to allopaths (or have patients who use creams on the quiet!).
Such homeopaths almost certainly have never suffered from serious skin
disease themsleves either. Moisturisation, skin nourishment (an
interesting subject) and barrier creams are very useful during
homeopathic treatment Even a little suppression sometimes helps in the
short term in those who are suffering terribly.

Topical applications to promote wound healing and in some cases of non
endogenous fungal infections can be invaluable as long as we never
ovelook treating the predispositions at the same time.

Thats my tuppence worth for now...

Hi-
Vaseline once or twice but mostly coconut oil. And this is only when
we could not avoid it.

As far as using externals for wound healing etc.if the indicated
medicine cannot do wound healing - then it is not indicated and I
would not trust adjuncts to do that for me. Of course most of the time
I do not believe even in vitamins ( for people who are already well-
fed etc. etc.) doing the work and only rarely have I gone for
nutritionals to aid the prescription. So there-

I understand where you come from when you say that we might be losing
patients to allopaths if we do not treat "heroically" at times and
this has happened sometimes with me. There have been instances when I
have turned away patients because they have been excessively creamed
and lotioned and I knew the result is going to be long in coming and
would *definitely* involve aggravating. If they would not want to go
thru with it and give up their creams, may be they are not the right
paitents. In any treatment success depends not just on holding to the
patient whatever happens but also in selecting the patients. I have
felt I can never conscientiously give externals when I have seen them
spoiling cases in my practice before. I explain to them what would
happen with homeopathy, there might be an aggravation and worsening of
the symptoms and if they cannot accept that - may be it is not going
to work out as a good therapeutic relationship anyway.

I can even say I have never cured a long standing skin disease
without aggravating. And I ascribe most of that to all of the
externals that go on.

Regarding oatmeal stuff that Shannon mentioned, I do not know.

Sometimes I have felt that natural substances ( like oatmeal, in India
they use neem leaves in the bath tub - not processed - but just throw
in clusters of leaves into the bath tub and use that water for bathing
for poxes) might have some internal balancing that allows it to be
more beneficial than harmful? I do not know. I have never seen neem
leave for all its proven therapeutic power interfere with treatment.

But I can say that anything that is applied outside has the potential
to cause suppression and I have seen it many times esp. with creams.

Homeopathy and homeopaths do not have the answers for everything but
in skin disease and suppression I think Homeopathy and Hahnemann hit
it right on.

Also I do not know how to proceed with the case - is my remedy
working or is it the cream? In other diseases when there is a
lessening of the internal symptoms with some skin rash appearing you
can say that the patient is improving. Whereas in skin conditions the
primary lesion and reason for consultation itself is the skin problem
and if we go about treating it with externals - how do we assess the
prognosis?

Let me just say - this is my tuppence and if your tuppence is
different - so be it...
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "robin9168" wrote:

I was wondering the same... Here's my thinking--different "agents" (as
above) work in different ways. I don't know how zinc ointment works
(what the mechanism is), but it seems, as you say, that the fact that
it is apparently *so* "effective" does seem suspicions. In the case of
e.g. coconut oil, cocoa butter and some others, the effect seems to be
partly mechanical (protective effect of the oil?) and partly
nutritional--supply through the skin elements that, if there were
sufficient in the diet, might have prevented the disorder in the first
place? (I'm speculating, but I *do* know that there can be nutritional
effects from skin applications.) Mud baths apparently work by "drawing
out toxins", which seems supportive rather than suppressive... So I
think we just have to evaluate each thing individually, rather than
making a blanket statement that any topical application is bad??
(Speculating...)
Actually, at least as I was taught it, that term does have a very
specific meaning. It means that the focus of the disease is driven
"inward", from less important to more important organs or functions.

A related term is "palliation", which means that it temporarily helps
the specific problem (e.g. soothes the skin), but does not have a deep
or lasting effect, and cannot cure the ailment. So most of these
measures would be at best palliative--which is sometimes quite a good
thing in itself!
Shannon



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"I was wondering the same... Here's my thinking--different "agents" (as
above) work in different ways. I don't know how zinc ointment works
(what the mechanism is), but it seems, as you say, that the fact that
it is apparently *so* "effective" does seem suspicions. In the case of
e.g. coconut oil, cocoa butter and some others, the effect seems to be
partly mechanical (protective effect of the oil?) and partly
nutritional--supply through the skin elements that, if there were
sufficient in the diet, might have prevented the disorder in the first
place? (I'm speculating, but I *do* know that there can be nutritional
effects from skin applications.) Mud baths apparently work by "drawing
out toxins", which seems supportive rather than suppressive... So I
think we just have to evaluate each thing individually, rather than
making a blanket statement that any topical application is bad??
(Speculating...)"

Yes! Sounds pretty rational to me, and more scientific.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In general I would agree but with the caveat that what is merely
palliative in someone could be suppressive in another and who knows
might be curative in some- once again there is no generalized
categorization -

the effect of anything once again depends on an interaction - how the
individual reacts to any given thing- the effects of soaps,
deodarants and perfumes etc. are also once again dependent of the
person using it...

But as a thumb rule anything that is a pure chemical with demonstrated
physiological / pathological effect due to its chemistry as against
the soothening effect of oils etc. is suspect to start with and I have
not had any cause to rue the approach of not using them-

with my allopathic back ground I have also had a chance to know their
pharmacological actions-

At the same time I agree that there might be instances where even
palliation might be better- but I have had very little chance to make
this decision in skin conditions-

I used to make a medicated ayurvedic oil myself - a traditional
formula which is a mixture of 3 different oils and Holarrhena
antidysenterica for external use - this used to a cure-all for me in
most skin, rheumatic and painful conditions... but which I never used
with homeopathic medicines. Just a couple of drops of this used to be
so effective in so many conditions. Problem is - it is such a
cumbersome process to make it ...
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Shannon wrote:
recommendation
change
Service.

Surely the difference between a 'soothing' agent and a suppressive
agent is important to appreciate. Many really bad skin cases need some
kind of help and management. Rarely see any that don't. Many cases are
prescribed soft soap to use (not sure about these but they do seem to
ease without suppression) but I always offer Calendula cream (good
quality and there are many to choose from) or a Calendula spray made
from MT and water. Depends on the case. And any topical application has
to be assessed throughout, if it is causing suppression or not helping
at all, then stop. I always work out a withdrawal procedure from
steroids with my cases if they have been on them a long time. Joy
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
http://www.homeopathicmateriamedica.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 05:45 PM 1/7/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Excellent post.

" Guys, we are
living the Third Reich of the pharmaceutical era.
Most cases that I take include the daily use of anti fungal products, and
sometimes the patient is not even aware of it (as in most cosmetic products,
including foundation, moisturizer, etc). When you have a patient that has
dandruff, do you ask them to stop using the Selsun Blue? I do."

You are exactly right

AND ALSO TEA TREE OIL - it is in everything 'natural' these days and I find
it suppressive - for god's sake its like turpentine! Its in toothpaste,
shampoo, deodorant, soap and on and on. That one has to go too!

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
Well Within & Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours (worldwide)
Vaccination Information & Choice Network
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm
homeopathycures@tesco.net
ONLINE Introduction to Homeopathy Classes
ONLINE Introduction to Vaccine Dangers Classes
Voicemail US 530-740-0561 UK phone from US 011-44-1874-624-936

I appreciate all of the information and considerations shared
on this topic.

After posting, I found this article that mentions zinc ointment,
along with sulphur, lead, and mercury preparations as suppressive --
apparently all 4 of them were widely used in the old days. Today
no one would dream of using lead or mercury preparations, but
sulphur (acne products) and zinc are still readily available and
perceived by the public as innocuous home remedies. Think of all
the babies and elderly getting zinc ointment daily for diaper rash
- the zinc ointment is largely touted simply as a "barrier" in the
literature.

http://tinyurl.com/8487o

To clarify btw, I was not referring to adjunct use, was closer
to possible evil, likely evil, or even "necessary evil" as has
been stated. In other words, too good to be true.

Now I clearly see the zinc ointment as suppressive. I've heard
many times about the hydrocortisone/steroid creams, but had
erroneously perceived zinc to be about as innocuous as
baking soda or salt, especially since zinc is so commonly
taken as a nutritional supplement.

Based on my experiences of hydrocortisone vs. zinc ointment now,
I'd say the zinc ointment is 10-100x more "effective" and
therefore more 10-100x more suppressive than the infamous
hydrocortisone creams, since a single application effectively
disappeared/suppressed a long standing, recurrently infected,
and intractable eczema, that various apparently well-indicated
homeo remedies at 6x-30C potencies had failed to improve,
and still gone 2 months later. Zinc 30C
is beginning to reverse the suppression systemwide.

Thanks again. It was worth the gratuitous roast. And I'm sure no
one else here learned anything at all from this thread.

Carol

Hi, Joy --

What are your guidelines for steroid withdrawal? I assume you're talking
about oral steroids, but what about cortisone creams?

I have a young man diagnosed with atopic dermatitis virtually from birth,
and his method of controlling his nearly constant itching is, naturally,
cortisone creams. Yes, I've explained to him the reasons why he doesn't
want to suppress the lovely outbreak he's having now (after Graphites). So
far he's listening -- and heeding -- but I'm wondering how long he'll behave
himself if his suffering continues.

I have my fingers crossed that Calendula spray will help.

Peace,
Cinnabar