Minutus

Count me in too! we had this kind of discussion in an other dutch group a
few days ago, many of those
are clinical trained, and its really tiring to talk to people who have other
ideas about homeopathy,
they have their view and they can not be bothered to go back to the old days
of hahn
all they seek is better and faster ways in search of a remedy prescription
(or so it seems to me)

they say all the things i sometimes read in this group too from new members
like

::::both doesnt homeopathy need to grow, add new things, new tools, ect

if you address them to old books they give you a new tittle with other newer
views, they say its dogmatic to
think like 150 years ago, that classicals feel superior and are not
flexible, its like your a freak when you believe
their is only one way of homeopathy and thats the old way! very discouraging
sometimes, im very much interested in homeopathy
have been studing the books for many years now, but sometimes i even think
'why do i bother to read lists'!
then again its always nice to come to this list and feel that there are
others who think the same as I

Marleen

I don't think homeopathy has become less effective - I'm coming to believe that the Old Masters simply were better trained and had a better understanding. How many modern homeopaths actually do a physical diagnostic exam on patients? We're taught (us lay folk) to sit behind a desk, listen, look, ask pertinent questions, maybe shake hands, touch lightly but I'm sure Hahnemann and others of his ilk must have checked pulses, listened to hearts and respiration, palpated livers and spleens - this is all in materia medica. If I know that the liver area in the abdomen is sensitive to palpation, that can greatly help me in differential - how can I know that without doing a basic physical diagnostic? The patient will not necessarily mention it, may even take slight sensitivity for granted. Not to mention all the different sounds that can be heard in respiration etc. The MDs in this area definitely have the advantage.
But also there seems to be a belief that things were "cleaner" somehow 200 years ago, less encumbered - I don't believe that's true, I think it's even a form of unreal nostalgia for the "good old days" because the present in its technical complexity makes people yearn for simplicity. Things were dangerous, there was abject poverty (still today), there was pollution, there already were miasmatic diseases, social structure - at least in Europe - was extremely discriminatory, and the medical practices of the age were just as frightening as those of today. 200 years ago the roads were filled with horse dung - isn't that a health hazard of itself? So now we've gotten rid of the dung and got petrol fumes instead. 200 years ago Europe was in constant political and military upheaval - the image of the simple healthy man ploughing his field only comes after the one of armies rampaging through it. Hahnemann's time wasn't close to any primeval simplicity - in terms of the millenia of
human civilisation we're only a mere 200 years down the road.
Sorry about the rant! I've always heard "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and the "fixing" that's going on nowadays in homeopathy seems to break more than it fixes. It seems to me that you shouldn't need sixth sense to read into the deepest essences of a person's personality in order to find the right remedies. It seems to me that Hahnemann wrote the Organon as a basic how-to book, and for some reason it's being pushed aside, often by people who often haven't read it in depth.
Vera

DMH wrote:
Vera wrote: "It's always been my understanding that originally homeopathy
(or homeopaths) were very effective, far more so than conventional medicine,
which is why homeopathy took root in the first place. Nowadays, as I
understand it, homeopaths (or homeopathy?) is much less effective, which is
why everyone seems to be looking for new ways to do things. Were the "old
homeopaths" just better at the job?"

Vera, we believe homeopathy is STILL more effective than conventional
medicine. The problem today is not that homeopathy is less effective, but
that it's more difficult by far to find the correct remedy, the simillimum.
There are many reasons for that, including that homeopaths two hundred years
ago were working with far fewer remedies as well as seeing people whose
vital force was much less encumbered by vaccinations, antibiotics, pain
meds, junk food, etc.

The search for "new ways to do things" is largely a quest to find a more
reliable means of matching the patient to the remedy he or she needs.

Peace,
Cinnabar
Clinical Guidance for Homeopaths and Students of Homeopathy!
http://www.shahrdarhost.net/Clinical%20Guidance.htm
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

VR VR wrote:

I don't think homeopathy has become less effective - I'm coming to believe that the Old Masters simply were better trained and had a better understanding. How many modern homeopaths actually do a physical diagnostic exam on patients? We're taught (us lay folk) to sit behind a desk, listen, look, ask pertinent questions, maybe shake hands, touch lightly but I'm sure Hahnemann and others of his ilk must have checked pulses, listened to hearts and respiration, palpated livers and spleens - this is all in materia medica. If I know that the liver area in the abdomen is sensitive to palpation, that can greatly help me in differential - how can I know that without doing a basic physical diagnostic? The patient will not necessarily mention it, may even take slight sensitivity for granted. Not to mention all the different sounds that can be heard in respiration etc. The MDs in this area definitely have the advantage.

But also there seems to be a belief that things were "cleaner" somehow 200 years ago, less encumbered - I don't believe that's true, I think it's even a form of unreal nostalgia for the "good old days" because the present in its technical complexity makes people yearn for simplicity. Things were dangerous, there was abject poverty (still today), there was pollution, there already were miasmatic diseases, social structure - at least in Europe - was extremely discriminatory, and the medical practices of the age were just as frightening as those of today. 200 years ago the roads were filled with horse dung - isn't that a health hazard of itself? So now we've gotten rid of the dung and got petrol fumes instead. 200 years ago Europe was in constant political and military upheaval - the image of the simple healthy man ploughing his field only comes after the one of armies rampaging through it. Hahnemann's time wasn't close to any primeval simplicity - in terms of the millenia of
human civilisation we're only a mere 200 years down the road.

Sorry about the rant! I've always heard "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and the "fixing" that's going on nowadays in homeopathy seems to break more than it fixes. It seems to me that you shouldn't need sixth sense to read into the deepest essences of a person's personality in order to find the right remedies. It seems to me that Hahnemann wrote the Organon as a basic how-to book, and for some reason it's being pushed aside, often by people who often haven't read it in depth.

Vera

WELL I DONT AGREE I HAVE WORKED IN MANY CULTURES INCLUDING REMOTE PARTS OF TRANSILVANIA WHERE HAHN WORKED AND THERE ARE SIMPLE CASES AMONGST LAND WORKING PEOPLE EVERYWHERE AND VERY COMPLEX CASES IN CITIES EVERYWHERE

MY COLLEAGUES CALL THEM TABLOID CASES FOUND IN AZERBIJAN AND HONDURAS AND INDIA AND AFRICA AND REMOTE PARTS OF EUROPE WHERE PEOPLE STILL GROW THEIR OWN FOOD. ONE DOSE OF A EASILY INDICATED CLEAR REMEDY CLEARS PATHOLOGY FROM 20 YEARS

I HAVE CITED MANY CASES IN MY BOOK EMOTIONAL HEALING WITH HOMEOPATHY. YOU DO GET FANTASTIC EASY RESULTS THIS IS HOW HOMEOPATHY WAS DISCOVERED AND BUILD IN PARIS I GUESS HAHN STRUGGLED IF YOU EAT OUT OF SUPERMARKETS YOU ARE MUCH SICKER MY CONCLUSION AND THE CASES ARE NOT CLEAR AS A BELL OR NOT CLEAR AT ALL

BYE

PETER
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Marleen

It is frustrating isn't it. And these same people blame homeopathy when their treatment doesn't work. Why are they so hanged up about 200 or more years ago? Don't they realise Hahnemann was way ahead of his time - and way ahead of even these times. He's not behind us yet!!! At 12 years old he could speak fluently five languages, one of those being Latin. A 12-year old today has trouble speaking his own language properly.

And what really upsets me the most is that here in England we had Edward Jenner (1749-1823), the discoverer of vaccinations. Hailed as a hero by British government because through his discovery he rid the world of Smallpox and other deadly epidemics. BUT he was a charlatan, a fraud, and England has sucked up to that lie and fraud ever since. It really makes me sick.

The Case Against Vaccination.

ADDRESS BY DR. HADWEN, J.P.,

AT GODDARD'S ROOMS, GLOUCESTER.

JAN 25, 1896.

http://www.whale.to/v/hadwen.html

Below is an extract taken from that speech, and people who say that times are now different, that we've got more diseases to contend with, that we've got this and we've got that - all excuses as far as I'm concerned for why they've got to find new ways to use homeopathy - should think again.

"Now this man Jenner had never passed a medical examination in his life. He belonged to the good old times when George 111. was King- (laughter)-when medical examinations were not compulsory. Jenner looked upon the whole thing as a superfluity, and he hung up "Surgeon, apothecary," over his door without any of the qualifications that warranted the assumption. It was not until twenty years after he was in practice that he thought it advisible to get a few letters after his name. Consequently he then communicated with a Scotch University and obtained the degree of Doctor of Medicine for the sum of £15 and nothing more. (Laughter.) It is true that a little while before, he had obtained a Fellowship of the Royal Society. but his latest biographer and apologist, Dr. Norman Moore, had to confess that it was obtained by little less than a fraud. It was obtained by writing a most extraordinary paper about a fabulous cuckoo, for the most part composed of arrant absurdities and imaginative freaks such as no ornithologist of the present day would pay the slightest heed to. A few years after this, rather dissatisfied with the only medical qualification he had obtained, Jenner communicated with the University of Oxford and asked them to grant him their honorary degree of M.D., and after a good many fruitless attempts he got it. Then he sent to the Royal College of Physicians in London to get their diploma, and even presented his Oxford degree as an argument in his favour. But they considered he had had quite enough on the cheap already, and told him distinctly that until he passed the usual examinations they were not going to give him any more. This was a sufficient check in Jenner's case, and he settled down quietly without any diploma of physician.

"The period in which he lived was undoubtedly a very filthy period. It was a time when, to take London for instance, the streets were nothing but a mass of cobble stones, the roads were so narrow that the people could almost shake hands across the street, and as for fresh air they scarcely knew anything about it, for locomotion such as we have to-day was unknown. Sanitary arrangements were altogether absent. They obtained their water from conduits and wells in the neighbourhood, Water closets there were none, and no drainage system existed. It was in London especially that small-pox abounded, where bodies were buried in Old St. Paul's Churchyard in Covent Garden only a foot below the soil, and people had to get up in the middle of the night and burn frankincense to keep off the stench; and where those who could afford it had houses on each side of the Fleet river, so that when the wind blew towards the east they lived in the west, and when it blew towards the west they lived in the east. This was the condition of old London, and you cannot be surprised if small-pox was then what Dr. Bond calls a scourge; you cannot be surprised if small-pox has declined since, even after this wonderful discovery of vaccination-(laughter and cheers)-and let us not forget that sanitary improvements began in London as early as 1766, and small-pox began to decline as a consequence before vaccination was invented."
Christine

And yet even the best (and even the most Hahnemannian) have people they
are not able to help. Much as I honor what we already have, I really
do not think complacency is appropriate.
Shannon

At 2:30 AM -0800 2/22/05, VR VR wrote:

Yup. That's the reason that homeopathy is MEDICINE, and why it was,
for a long time (and still is in many places) practiced by Medically
trained folks.
Amen to that. I have often longed for the butterscotch pudding my
mother used to make from the packet she got at the store, and I
wonder "exactly what were the contents"? They didn't say there were
artificial flavors, but I'd love to have a 1945 package submitted to
chemical analysis. I bet it was just as full of crap as we have now--
just, maybe, different crap.
You got it!

JW

I agree 100% with what Peter says here about people closer to the land presenting much less convoluted homeopathic cases. I've seen it in US rural patients and also in patients recently moved to this country from rural settings. This in contrast to more highly educated lifelong urban folks. I know homeopaths who have moved from rural to urban areas in the US and find it so much less satisfying to try to practice homeopathy in their new environment that they go on to do something else entirely with their lives. With urban folks, the cases tend to be complex. However, over time if one follows the thread through several remedies, the case does eventually, often, come up very clearly indicating the remedy that was needed underneath all along. But it's a long, delicate detective job, requiring patience from both the practitioner and the patient, and sometimes the twists and turns required don't make a whole lot of sense miasmatically or in terms of related or complementary remedies. These cases can be a study in the often unnoticed effects of poor nutrition, unhealthy habits, and multiple suppressions with allopathic medicines or other herbal or recreational drugs.

It's interesting to wonder about how Hahnemann found patients in Paris as opposed to his smaller city of Kothen. Any insights, Julian?

>I agree 100% with what Peter says here about people closer to the
No insights at all.

But...

I believe it is Hahnemann (in the intro) who talks about how when
wild animals become domesticated they start having diseases-- like
domestication brings with it negatives and positives.
The same with living in a city.
I knew a shrink in NYC who said (this was in 1964) that the people he
saw had so many anxieties (will the subway get stuck in the tunnel?
Will I get a seat at the restaurant for lunch? Will I be safe walking
home? etc. etc.) that he hardly had time in the session to get to the
really deep problems.

I know that since I've lived in NZ where the pace is slower asnd
there are less people, that when I went to the USA a few months ago I
got a real case of sensory overload-- too many people, cars, too big,
to noisy, people smoking, and on.... It took a major psychic toll on
me.

Cities are NOT good places, and by becoming domesticated by living in
one will lead to other diseases.

JW

But if you make mistakes playing the violin the way forward is more
practice and tuition in the violin, not turning to the guitar instead
-- if you love the violin and want to perform music on it.

Andre Saine said 80% or more of the materia medica knowledge we need
comes from Hahnemann, Allen's encyclopaedia and Hering. With programs
like Reference Works, Isis, etc, it is much easier to search and study
these books; it's wonderful what you find in them. And as I keep
harping on, Boenninghausen's pocketbook...

Richard
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
200

How wonderfully put Richard, sometimes a metaphor is useful to make some see
clearer .


Marleen